UKCPM - vanished windscreen PCN notice in Hove

[vialli69]

Greetings everyone,

 

I work in a small office in Hove where I pay for a car parking space.

I have a permit which I display in the window of my car.

 

I have received parking charge notice from Uk car parks https://www.uk-carparkmanagement.co.uk/aboutus/legalitiesmanagement

 

Now the badge I was displaying was valid from May 2017 it has no expiry date on

however I have I have been giving a new permit to display in my car which I forgot to do!

 

I pay £70 per month for this space and have had it for 20 months.

 

What is the best course of action?

 

PS

 

Apparently, they take drivers to court

Thanks

[ericsbrother]

as they have slapped a ticket on your car the best thing you can do is to wait until they send you a NTK through the post (it is your vehicleisnt it?) and then you will be able to find fault with that as well as their attempt at chiselling money when none is due.

 

The permit is an adiministrative convenience, you have a contract to park regardless of that bit of paper and they cant interfere with that as it trumps their rules as thye are only there to manage the place as instructed, they dont own it or have any rights.

 

Anyways, by then your new permit will be available for waving about so they will look even more stupid if they want to start a bar brawl over this but having saud that parking co's are stupid and greedy so keep us posted as to when you get anything through the post (NTK)

Edited May 22, 2018 by DragonFly1967
Added paragraphs

[vialli69]

I have received the notice already in the post. there is a picture of my car and the permit, the permit itself has a valid date from 2017 but no expiry date. surely for it to have any legs it must have a valid expiry date ?

[ericsbrother]

rioght then, DATES of the sevent and the NTK issues and receipt. Did you get a ticket slapped on the vehicle or just the NTK

[vialli69]

Just a notification through the post

 

Hello everybody, please can somebody help me out with this as I'm appealing this ticket. I was displaying a permit which was valid from 2017 the permit itself has no expiry date, therefore, how is one to know if it's expired or not?

[ericsbrother]

dont appeal the ticket yet, that was the first bit of advice and you need to show us what you have received. If they have got the wording wrong the demand is just bog roll.

so now answer the other question- DATES

[dx100uk]

please complete this so we have the correct info to help you properly

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?462118-Have-you-received-a-Parking-Ticket

[vialli69]

Please see redacted Ticket

car parking ticket 2 .pdf

Edited May 24, 2018 by DragonFly1967
Fixed & redacted attachment

[ericsbrother]

3rd MAY? they are too late to create a keeper liability so even if they had a cast iron reason to demand the money that got that wrong.

Even less reason to write to them, let them waste their money writing silly letters and when you get closer to the end game let them knwo you will be after them for their sins

[vialli69]

For windscreen tickets (NTD) please answer the following questions.

 

1 The date of infringement? 03/05/2018

 

2 Did you appeal to the parking company? Not Yet

 

If yes, has there been any response?

If no, have you received a Notice To Keeper? (NTK) Did the NTK provide photographic evidence?

 

3 Did the NTK mention Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) no, none

 

4 If you appealed after receiving the NTK, did the parking company give you any information regarding the further appeals process?

[it is well known that parking companies will reject any appeal whatever the circumstances]

 

5 Who is the parking company?UK Car park management

 

 

For tickets received through the post (Notice to Keeper) please answer the following questions.

 

1 Date of the infringement 03/05/2018

2 Date on the NTK 17/05/2018

3 Date received 21/05/2018

 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? No None

 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? Yes, I have attached the redacted ticket .

 

6 Have you appealed? Not yet

Have you had a response?

 

7 Who is the parking company? Uk car park management aka CPM

 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under.

There are two official bodies, the BPA and the IAS. If you are unsure, please check here Yes the IAS

[brassnecked]

You pay for the space so if the PPC isn't the one you pay your contract cannot be frustrated by them demanding money a permit was on display, no expiry date, I'm sure they would get a tolchocking if they took this one to court, anyway ericsbrother and Dragonfly might have something to say on this one.

[vialli69]

Shall dispute the ticket or ignore it ?

[silverfox1961]

Hi

At the moment I would ignore them. You could appeal if you wish but don't name yourself as the driver. Always state 'The Driver' but don't expect anything reasonable from any member of the IPC or IAS

 

 

 

As already mentioned, if you pay someone other than the parking company, you have supremacy of contract. As the permit doesn't give an end date, does it say that the permit is for the duration of 1 year? I would check the details on any paperwork associated with the parking permit and see what it says.

 

 

If you can find out who issued the permits (if landowner or managing agent) complain to them and see what happens.

 

 

As for the photo, could you reload in pdf format. I can't see what it says (even with my bins on)

[ericsbrother]

Ignore, they are stuffed for several reasons so let them wate theuir time and money as already said.

 

 

Shall dispute the ticket or ignore it ?

[DragonFly1967]

Yep, I'm with EB on this one. Even if they had the right to issue you a PCN (which they don't), they've shot themselves in both feet by not issuing it in time to create any keeper liability.

 

Let them carry on writing to you and wasting their money. You do absolutely nothing except laugh unless they're silly enough to send you a letter before action with a view to taking you to court. Then you let them (or their pet solicitor) have it with both barrels.

 

They'd have an absolute 0% chance of winning this in court. So if they've got money to burn, let them crack on.

[vialli69]

The letter is dated 14 days after I have supposedly illegally parked ..does this make a difference ?

[DragonFly1967]

The letter is dated 14 days after I have supposedly illegally parked ..does this make a difference ?

 

Yes, it means that you have all the proof that you need that they failed to comply with the POFA

 

The POFA states that for ANPR tickets (or where tickets are sent through the post, rather than having one slapped on the windscreen), it must land on your door mat within the "relevant period" (and that relevant period is no later than 14 days taken from the day after the parking event. So in effect, 15 days (from the actual date that you parked)).

 

POFA Sch 4. Para 9. Subsection 4(b). And POFA Sch 4. Para 9. Subsection 5 which defines the relevant period.

 

 

However. The POFA @ Sch 4. Para 9. Subsection 6 also says that the notice is presumed to have been delivered on the second working day after it has been sent, unless the contrary is proved.

 

 

So, to make the maths easy.

 

The driver parks your car on 1st, and contravenes some made up rule, thereby attracting a ticket.

They print and post the ticket on the 14th (which is 13 days after the day after the parking event). They even handily write this date on the ticket for you.

 

The ticket is deemed to arrive (even if it actually arrives the very next day (unlikely as they use 2nd class)) on 16th. But that is the day after the date of parking +15 days. So... The PPC has failed to create keeper liability as they have written to you outside of the times allowed.

 

In your case, even though the NtK was generated on the 14th day (from the day after the parking event), the second working day after that date is 21st. Which is the day after the parking event +18 and even if you were generous and counted Saturday as a working day (the law doesn't) it's still the day after the parking date +15 so, out of time.

 

 

If they then go on to compound this by trying to take you to court, it's a very easy victory for you as keeper.

[vialli69]

So I park and get a ticket on the 03rd they date a letter on the 17th and it arrived Monday

the 21st. there is no postage mark on the envelope. How do i prove it arrived on the 21st?

 

Thanks

[DragonFly1967]

How do i prove it arrived on the 21st?

 

You don't need to, they've proved it for you!

 

3rd +1 = 4th

 

17th - 4 (4th) = 13

 

13 + 2 = 15 = No keeper liability.

 

 

But as the NtK was generated on 17th, a Thursday and the POFA says "two working days", Saturdays & Sundays don't count, so the earliest it could have got to you (in law) is Monday 21st (which it did).

 

21 - 4 = 17 ( or time allowed by the POFA + 3 days. ) = Out of time.

 

 

They would have had to hand deliver it to you personally to get it there within the time allowed by the POFA.

[silverfox1961]

Whoa there a moment.

 

 

This was a windscreen ticket was it not? As such, any notice to keeper must arrive between 29 and 56 days after the ticket was issued. Although members of the IPC don't like to follow PoFA 2012, should they take court action, they assume the keeper is also the driver but they don't KNOW. This is not good enough to form keeper liability and if they tried court action and rely on PoFA, they are doubly stuffed as the NTK was too early so no keeper liability whatsoever.

[vialli69]

Hi Silverfox,

 

Thank you for responding.

 

I wasn't aware I had a ticket until 17 days after the event, they send a warden around who takes pictures.

 

I'm getting confused now as i thought the ticket needs to be with me a maximum of 15 days after the event. ?

 

Best

[ericsbrother]

the OP has posted up a NTK, many parking cos's are now using para 9 rather than a NTD and para 8 as it shortens the discount period and thy dont have to put up with people making soppy appeals and slowing down their money grabbing.

 

When solely photographic evidence is used then the company has to issue the NTK within 12 days after the day of the event and it must arrive no later than 14 days so park wrong on the 1st of the month and you must have the letter on your doorstep by the 15th

 

In this case no keeper liability has been created so they can only chase the driver at the time.

 

Now the NTK must contain certain key information and that includes waht it is the driver has supposed to ahve done wrong and it this case they havent said what has been done to cause them to claim money is owed. they just say that it was parked in a manner whereby a chage became payable.

 

Not good enough, it has to specify what was done wrong so for example, overstaying paid for hours, parking putside a marked bay etc. It would be impossible to know an undated permit has expired unless CPM were told to issue them and they knew that the new ones had been handed out but even that doesnt change anything, you PAID and that is that, the permit is just a convenience for them, not a method for harassing their clients workers

 

However, we would like to see the wording on the sigange and any information about the scheme you pay for as that may give you leverage from other angles. For example, if you pay the landowner for the pleasue of parking then they are liable for the behaviour of their servants and as CPM have broken the law regading collection of your personal data they can be held laible for not only the damages you intend to recover via the courts but a big slap from the ICO.

 

So, piccies and details of the parking scheme, esp who you pay and who issues permit.

Edited May 25, 2018 by DragonFly1967
Added paragraphs

[DragonFly1967]

If it's just come through the post (ie, there was never any ticket slapped on the car) the time limits are as I gave you earlier in the thread.

 

If there was a ticket on the car, UKCPM are still stuffed, but in a different way.

[silverfox1961]

My apologies. I honestly thought that this was a windscreen ticket.

 

 

What it sounds like is that there is a member of staff from a company in the area going round taking pictures then passing them on to UKPCM. Untrained people going round taking pictures on the pretence of some 'breach' should be outlawed

[ericsbrother]

The IPC thnk that it is better for their members to take piccies and then issue NTK rather than issue a ticket and wait a month. Those who pay up do so a bit quicker and with those who dont they save a pound on ther paperwork.

 

Also IPC members think they dont have to obey the law because they and their signs have been vetted personally by Will and John at the IPC , who are the worlds greatest solicitors in their other part time job so can never do wrong.

 

I wonder why the parking co's place such faith in a company that has its registered office at a golf club they dont own. About as reassuring as hiring someone who give his address as c/o a bookies or pub saloon bar

Edited May 25, 2018 by DragonFly1967
Added paragraphs