Cel pcn Lambourne Hse, Bridge Cross Rd, Burntwood, WS7 2BX **TICKET CANCELLED**

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Received a PCN dated 14/05/18 from CEL for the 05/05/18 for the time frame of 19:24:06 to 22:06:12.

 

We did pay parking but I can not remember how long for (think it was 2hrs as we attended a restaurant which was v.busy)

 

I've checked on local authority for planning permission (is it required?) and I can not see that it has been granted for changing from free parking to paid.

 

The location of the car park is Lambourne House, Bridge Cross Rd, Burntwood, WS7 2BX.

 

I'm a bit peeved that despite paying, they expect £100 for being over the time I paid for, despite it being due to how busy the restaurant was.

 

Any suggestions, I've been told by someone at work to write to them stating that I dispute not appeal and request to see a copy of the contract, showing the restrictions, the charges, the dates and terms of business including any payments

between them and the landowner and the definition of status as agents or contractors and assigned rights (if any).

 

And ask "the legal basis of your charge, which is not clear (i.e. breach, trespass or contractual fee). As keeper, I cannot be expected to guess the basis of your allegations.

 

i. If alleging breach of contract, please supply a breakdown of your alleged 'loss' and state the intention of your enforcement (i.e. deterrent or revenue).

ii. If alleging trespass, enclose further evidence of the perpetrator, proof of the liquidated damages alleged and the calculation of this sum by the landholder.

iii. If alleging 'contractual fee' I request a VAT invoice by return and your explanation of how you can allow drivers to park 'in breach' for a fee when your client

originally contracted you in order to disallow and deter - not allow and profit from - unauthorised parking. I contend this charge is merely a penalty which is not

recoverable in contract law (as found by Mr Recorder Gibson QC in the case of Civil Enforcement v McCafferty 3YK50188 (AP476) 21/2/2014 Appeal).

 

Please supply proof of your locus standi to offer contracts to drivers at this site and to bring a claim in your own right for this particular contravention. "

 

Does that sound right or is there anything else?

[honeybee13]

Hi.

 

Can you provide the information requested in the forum sticky please?

 

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?462118-Have-you-received-a-Parking-Ticket

 

HB

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Type:Parking Charge Notice

Company: Civil Enforcement Ltd

Date of PNC: 14/05/18

Date received: 18/05/18

Infringement date: 05/05/18

Duration: 19:24:06 to 22:06:12

Location: Lambourne House, Bridge Cross RD, Burntwood, WS7 2BX.

 

I have not yet appealed or disputed

 

No NTK - it's just a Parking Charge Notice with no pictures. States £100 or £60 within 14days.

"Failure to pay the amount due within 28days of issue date may result in civil enforcement ltd (the creditor) forwarding your account to debt recovery agency.

 

It does state under how to pay: Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) and doesn't mention BPA or IAS

[honeybee13]

Thank you, I've amended your thread title.

 

HB

[lookinforinfo]

Please don't write to them yet. They will lie, obfuscate or divert and they will not give you the answers you asked for . The other danger is that by writing you may reveal who was the driver eg "1 did not see the signs" as opposed to "the driver did not see any signs". [They are writing to you as the keeper and don't know who the driver is -so best to keep it that way].

 

It is best to get all the info first then YOU hit them with the reasons for not paying [and there will be more than one].

They do require planning permission Town and Country [advertisements] Regulations and another if using anpr. It is a criminal offence not to have the permissions so their "contracts" are useless.

To help us really smash their chances of getting money from you could you please post up their NTK but first remove your name, address . reg no and any other identifiers. Could you also include photos of their notices and the ticket machine info as the two frequently contradict one another thus rendering their contract invalid.

[ericsbrother]

thy wont need PP for changing from free to paid parking, they will need the PP for their equipment.

Forgte about the reasdons as to why you were there after the paid time, of no relevance whatsoever and of no interest to anyone either.

 

Start off with by showing us the NTK they sent you with your personal details redacted, likewise ref No's and bar codes. thenh if you can we would like to see the signage at the site, a picture of the entrance to the land from the public highway and a picture of the parking meter and any associated blurb for payment. The contract is only agreed when you feed the meter so theoretically those who pay nothing arent bound by the terms as they are trespassing!

Edited May 18, 2018 by honeybee13
Paras

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requested.

 

There is no signage or notices stating recording or cameras are in operation.

 

I think I've checked the right site for planning permission it's the district council not county?

 

Oh and it was two hours that was paid for. Duration took longer in restaurant due to being busy

[ericsbrother]

they dont have to say they are recording anything, again you are barking up the wtrong tree and that diverts your efforts to the wrong place.

If you think that the restaurant will get this cnacelled then tell them that you would like them to otherwise there is no reason to even mentionit at all, as it isnt relevant, the contract is between the person who fed the meter and CEL, no-one else gets to have a say. please get yopur head round this, it is not about eating or parking, it is about contracts so that is where they win or lose.

 

 

so lets look at what you have. the PCN isnt POFA compliant so no keeper liability. they have failed to mention almost everything they need to to create a keeper liability. CEL dont care, they are genuine crooks but this means that they are on to a loser if they decide to try and get tough with you as they dont actually know who was driving and they cant just assume it was you. That is good enough reason to say nothing about why your vehicle was where it was.

 

 

the Sign saying pay at machine isnt a contract, it is at best an "invitation to treat" but as it still fails certain requirements ot allow the parking to to demand anything then it is actually a nothing sign so a waste of paint fro them.

 

 

the sign offering the parking contract belongs to a different company so not clear who the contract is with. as neither company have put their details on their sigange then you dont have anything to consider as an offer from any entity. You can also claim that this is confusing so again not a n offer of precise terms. Look up Star Park at companies house and you will see that they are not associated with CEL according to their registration. The reality si that a dishonest person runs both of the companies without listing his interests anywhere and tell lies to courts when asked about this. They dont actually show up at court when they do sue people because they would probably get banged up for contempt

 

 

 

the parking machine says nothing useful and as that is where the contract is made the if you pay. So, you pay and there are no further conditions so you cant actually breach them.

 

 

so. dont bother responding to then, let them waste some money chasing you, it follows a very constant pattern and we will advise you if you need to write to them at all

 

 

You could write to the DVLA and ask who obtained your keeper details and when you know you make a complaint about then having no reason to do soa nd thus breaching their KADOE contract. As they have clearly been passing on the information or collecting it on behalf of someone else this woudl warrant a more serious complaint to the ICO regarding the DVLA being asleep on the job but get the access data first.

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thanks

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Hi Ads_uk,

ive had a ticket from the same carpark and im being taken to court at the end of september, are you able to update as to how you got on and what defence you used? am i able to use your pictures? i parked at nighttime and was visiting Khans, didnt realise i would have to pay at 9pm, pkus it was dark so missed the signs. im really hoping that at the very least i just pay the parking fine of £60 as now the ''fine'' is at £300 and i just think that is disgusting!

Sure, use the pics.

They dropped it when I challenged them on the ownership of the debt & validity of the debt as at the machine there are no t&c (as indicated in an earlier post)

The company name on the ticket machine is different to the name on the signs.

 

Yes your right about it being dark there.

There is no lighting on that property near any of the signage.

[lookinforinfo]

A big thank you Loulabell123.

This is why we ask you all to read other threads so that you can learn the processes that are involved;

see how other members handled the situation;

how different situations require different solutions;

just what a dishonest bunch these parking companies are and how they never seem to get everything right-which gives one the resolve to carry on.

 

The other thing that we learned was that Ads_uk has had his case dropped.

It would have been helpful had he done so at the time since it is always a great encouragement to others who are still struggling with these crooks to see some one else getting the better of them.

 

At the same time thanks are due to Ads_uk for coming back to answer the question and help another member.

 

I'm sure it gives Eric's brother et al a deal of pleasure when they see a case coming to an excellent conclusion and beating the crooks one more time.

Edited September 2, 2018 by dx100uk
spacing

[ads_uk]

A big thank you Loulabell123.

This is why we ask you all to read other threads so that you can learn the processes that are involved;

see how other members handled the situation;

how different situations require different solutions;

just what a dishonest bunch these parking companies are and how they never seem to get everything right-which gives one the resolve to carry on.

 

The other thing that we learned was that Ads_uk has had his case dropped.

It would have been helpful had he done so at the time since it is always a great encouragement to others who are still struggling with these crooks to see some one else getting the better of them.

 

At the same time thanks are due to Ads_uk for coming back to answer the question and help another member.

 

I'm sure it gives Eric's brother et al a deal of pleasure when they see a case coming to an excellent conclusion and beating the crooks one more time.

 

Done so at the time?

Ive been on holiday the past two weeks & flew back in Saturday morning - have only picked my emails up this morning after sleeping all day..

 

From June to mid July they kept sending reminders so I kept sending them back with a copy of my dispute letter.

They only confirmed 21st August - as I was out of the country..

[dx100uk]

thread title update

well done ads

 

dx

[ericsbrother]

It doesnt matter how you get them to drop their claim, anything that works is good. CEL are ther biggest bunch of crooks in the business at present ( not just my opinion Trading Standards think so as well)

 

So, those using this thread for their own battles take heart. you could simply tell CEL they have been rumbled and you have read all about them and look forward to whipping their backsides in court and will be using these threads as part of your evidence againt them.

Edited September 3, 2018 by Andyorch
Paras/edited

[lookinforinfo]

I am sorry Ads_uk.

I saw that you had not been back since May and wrongly assumed that your good news had happened earlier than the past fortnight .

Might be an idea to hang on to their letters for some time as it appears CEL are not reliable enough to stand by their word [whatever it is].

 

Just to point out to other motorists looking through old threads is to be aware that the signs in Bridge cross road may have been changed [or maybe soon will be] to prevent similar defeats.

 

In this case it may be unlikely as it costs money to alter them if they go through Town & Country and CEL may be hoping this case was a one off.

Edited September 4, 2018 by dx100uk
spacing

[dx100uk]

Always best to start a new thread

[ericsbrother]

start a new thread and post up what you have received with your personal details redacted. CEL cant be bothered to use the protocols of the POFA so saying nothing to them in the first instance is always good. You can bash them later with more things then. So few demands are correctly issued our general advice is not to pay it and certainlly dont pay it without considering the alternatives properly.

 

Can you keep this updated and let me know what happens?

 

I've just had a ticket at this site.

I've parked there a number of times, always on a sat evening whilst going to the restaurant and genuinely didn't know you had to pay and didn't see the signs (dark) and have never had a ticket before.

 

I'm absolutely gutted about this.

Part of me doesn't want to pay as it was a genuine error but the other part of me can't be bothered with the hassle and risk of paying more.

 

I'm annoyed at myself as I know they rely on people like me just paying up!