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Our house was repossessed in 2009 and sold at auction to recover the outstanding mortgage balance.

The sale left a shortfall of £25K+ which the lender came after me for,

and being in our late-60s with no savings, assets or investments following a business collapse

this is being repaid at £5 per month from Pension Credit sole-income.

At this rate it would take over 400 years to settle.

 

I have twice formally requested that this be written off,

as it is clear that there is now no expectation in retirement of there being a substantial income

or a radical change of circumstance that would make settlement a possibility.

 

My first approach 4 years ago was made direct to the lender,

and shortly afterward a response came from the DCA advising that their client was not willing to do so.

A follow-up request restating the realities and requesting reconsideration was never replied to.

 

My second approach 2 years ago, and two subsequent chases, have never been replied to.

 

I believe that the mortgage lender’s code of conduct has something to say in such a regard,

particularly that a lender should not, or may not, pursue recovery of a mortgage shortfall debt

where it is clear that recovery is impractical or unachievable.

 

Is there a mortgage-debt expert on CAG who can confirm or deny this?

I intend to request a write-off again, and want to leave zero wiggle-room

because clearly 400 years is idiotically silly to enforce at age 68 or indeed any age!

 

Any clarification will be greatly appreciated,

thanks!

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i believe the mortgage lenders handbook does not require a write off in this situation and at £5 a month from pension income it would not be seen as unreasonable.

 

If you could evidence that the £5 a month was causing your hardship, then you might have a cause to ask them to close the account or suspend it.

 

You could write to the Banks head office to ask for a full explanation and complain about previous enquiries not being answered,


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Thank you!

 

Is the Mortgage Lender's Handbook a set of defining protocols that must be adhered-to by Lenders, or *just* a lookup resource setting out preferred conduct for CML members that ultimately may or may not be followed at their discretion?

 

Also, is a copy of the Handbook available for reference to your knowledge? I have just spent a couple of hours googling it but have only found extracts here and there when connected to a variety of mortgage matters .. I would like to know exactly what it says on the point in order to make best use of it in my writeoff request letter.

 

In passing ...

 

The original Mortgage Lender was Southern Pacific Mortgages Limited, Later Capstone and now Acenden, and quite coincidentally my Googling threw up this page/thread elsewhere which reports in some depth on an appalingly grim and extensively manipulative structure, rooted in the Lehman collapse, which shows a blatant disregard for Borrowers, and a ground-up policy of aggressively pursuing defaults and repossessions via very shady actions barely this side of legal.

 

http://bit.ly/285fZzI

 

Not only would this suggest why my various letters have largely been unanswered, more problematically it also introduces the issue that mortgages are not in fact owned by Acenden anyway but by something called Special Purpose Vehicles or SPVs, so presumably I have some more digging to do before I can contact a decision-maker to request a writeoff ... which given the disgusting attitude and actions of these parties would seem unlikely to go anywhere anyway .. maybe directly in to their waste paper bin!

 

I presently have another question on this forum that relates to this same debt but is not related to my question here so I kept the two separate in order to avoid confusion. Among the advice given to that query is the suggestion to SAR *The Lender*, and frankly that might be a path here if ever I could establish just who is at the start of the chain, though I could seriously do without having to find £10! If you are interested, my other query is a simple one regarding the routine conduct of the DCA involved, and is here: http://bit.ly/25ChgzI

 

Thanks again, and if you can perhaps point me to a copy of the Mortgage Lender's Handbook for me to take a magnifying glass to in order to find the lines I need, or even just the section on shortfall-debt recovery and handling if it is known to exist in isolation somewhere, it would help a great deal.

 

Regards

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortgage_Conduct_of_Business_rules

 

 

http://www.fsa.gov.uk/pubs/hb-releases/rel64/rel64mcob.pdf (this might be out of date as it is from the time the FSA were in control

 

 

https://www.handbook.fca.org.uk/handbook

 

 

Hannay, I think the Lenders Handbook is specifically for the Lenders/Conveyancers. You will need to check out the Mortgage Conduct of Business Rules - I have popped links above for you. Alternatively, you should be able to find links on the FCA Website


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Have you approached CML for a copy of the handbook that applied at the time to lending by the companies concerned.

 

https://www.cml.org.uk/lenders-handbook

 

The CML did contain bits in regard to repossession shortfalls and practice expected, but as CB says, this may well now come under FSA mortgage conduct rules. The FSA do have a consumer helpline and may be able to point you in the right direction.

 

If you are writing to Aceden and they are ignoring you, then you can raise a complaint with the FOS. But you would have to detail what your issues are.


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Thank you citizen B and Unclebulgaria for a wealth of guidance ... I will absorb the particulars that these lead me to, and take steps accordingly. No doubt I might need to clarify a thing or two in due course!

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Thank you citizen B and Unclebulgaria for a wealth of guidance ... I will absorb the particulars that these lead me to, and take steps accordingly. No doubt I might need to clarify a thing or two in due course!

 

As the above members stated the mortgage is MCOB regulated, however I'd also like to add that an SPV is an entity established for the purpose of packaging and selling mortgages and not a controlling entity to which you can direct queries (just to save you some time and googling).

 

If the mortgage is being serviced by Ascenden you need to direct your proposals to them, if they have a client that owns the mortgage they will refer to the client if your request is outside of Ascenden's mandate to accept or decline.

 

Realistically you should have a response from any such proposal within 10 days, as most lenders will have procedure timings that keep them in line with pre-action protocol.

 

In your instance it might take a little longer, especially since they aren't going to be litigating any time soon so probably won't be worrying about PAP.

 

You should certainly have a response though, so it may be worth making a complaint about your lack of prior responses. This should be made to the company initially, and they should issue an FRL which would hopefully contain an outcome for your proposal and explanation of their position.

 

At that stage if you are still unhappy, you can escalate the complaint to the FOS.

 

As far as I'm aware however MCOB rules do not require the lender to write off a shortfall amount regardless of situation.

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Thank you Nihilus, I will stop Googling! :)

 

I have a couple of questions just to clarify your guidance, but can't take the time this second but didn't want to let your excellent clarification go unthanked.

 

I will be along to continue with you on this in the next day or so, thanks again.

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I am contesting 2 mortgage shortfall debts, the amount by which a repossession sale fails to cover the outstanding mortgage sum.

 

Could someone knowledgeable please check my intentions/thinking given below.

 

Also, I’m looking for shortfall-related regulations or Code-of-Conduct other than the BCOBS advisory I refer to below, in order to provide more-solid references. Can anyone add to that for me?

 

Thanks!!

 

 

 

Particulars

 

I retired after a business collapse and a later unsuccessful restart attempt. We lost our home, a mortgaged 2nd property, picked up a handful of smaller debts/liabilities eg credit cards/small loans (since dealt with), and have no remaining assets or investments. The forced sales produced reasonable results not sacrificial ones just to recover something/anything, though regrettably in a weak market hence the shortfalls.

 

We are now 70 and live in rented accommodation with state pension our only income and with no foreseeable improvement ... not the retirement we were expecting, but we are making the best go of it that we can.

 

Repayment arrangements for all debts had been made a few years before I discovered this forum 5/6 years ago, which was then a big eye-opener to the shoddy ways of the financial sector!

 

With guidance I challenged some of my debts then, with some eventually written-off.

 

Before that I had already requested that the 2 mortgage shortfall debts - c£23K & c£25K - be written off. I had believed that repayment of any shortfall was simply “the way it goes” after Court proceedings/repossession, and had since been making token payments of £5/mth agreed with DCAs.

 

They will therefore take 383 and 416 years to clear!

 

Also, I had/still-have no realistic expectation of income/employment in retirement at now 70 and beyond that would bring any ability to clear those significant amounts, and certainly not from a pension income intended for basic food/amenity/living costs but that increasingly doesn't stretch that far.

 

One mortgage was with Chelt & Gloucs/Lloyds, who refused a write-off and left it with DCAs.

 

The other was with Capstone/SPML and a bunch called Acenden, who I now read are financial gangsters and whose roughshod ways have caused much distress. There was no reply from SPML at all, and this too was placed with DCAs.

 

Dealing with 6 other debts and the constant letters and calls and pressure-ploys across some years was particularly distressing to my wife, and I elected to hold off on looking in to the mortgage-debts as the effects that those other shenanigans were having on her - and on me also to some extent - were simply not worth prolonging/adding-to for the sake of a fiver here and there which at the time didn’t hurt as much.

 

I now want to challenge these again however, and see them gone.

 

I can’t find any more shortfall-debt info/regs today than I found before, basically a BCOBS code of conduct which states (paraphrasing) that a Lender is *not required* to pursue a shortfall if the amount or the circumstances make it unlikely that it will be cleared, and unreasonable to expect. The expression “not required to” seems to recommend using common-sense, though I don’t think this is enforceable just discretionary guidance.

 

 

My Intentions

 

I will be requesting write-offs again from the 2 lenders direct, citing age, limited and declining circumstances, the above unrealistic expectations, and the clear impossibility of recovery.

 

I will inform the DCAs involved (who by coincidence both changed just weeks ago - change for the end of the financial year maybe?) that matters are in dispute with their clients, that they should return the case to them and cease further recovery activities, and that they will be included in the formal complaint/Action if they continue while this goes forward.

 

I automatically expect the lenders to refuse.

 

If a lender replies with a refusal they are required to give reasons, so if my lenders reply without explaining their reasons I will respond pointing out that their justification is still required.

 

Either way, if/when they reply with reasons I will request reconsideration restating and stressing the unreasonable situation.

 

If they still refuse - as I expect - I will promptly escalate to FOS.

 

 

 

So then …

 

Question 1

- Is there any good reason to do things differently: advice/redirection please if so.

 

Question 2

- I think I am fine with C&G/Lloyds, can readily identify who/where to send my writeoff letter.

 

- SPML/Capstone/Acenden however is simply a mess! I have been digging around a LOT and this is a tangle of acquisitions, selectively repackaged arrangements, and fancy footwork. I have no clue where to direct my writeoff request.

 

The original lender was SPML via Capstone Morg Corp., but they appear to have washed their hands of all dealings and Acenden not only appears to respond aggressively when others have approached them over debts, but also they appear to be known for then taking quick and overly heavy-handed steps indiscriminately to ramp-up the pressure and back people down.

 

So has anyone had dealings with Capstone/SPML and/or Acenden and can shed any light? I don’t want to be unknowingly wasting time groping in the dark for months on end getting nowhere, or conversely get snarled-up in some distracting sideline which still has to be dealt with nevertheless or there are real-world consequences?

 

Question 3

- Any known regulations etc clarifying/specifying mortgage shortfall liability/enforcement? … or its fundamental legitimacy even?!

 

 

 

Thanks for staying to the end, any help/info/redirection very gratefully received!

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Do the dcas own the shortfall or are they acting for a client!


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For sake of history

Ive merged an old thread


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Dx100uk

 

Thanks for jumping in on this too.

 

Thanks also for the merge. I just wasn’t sure whether that would be welcomed, so chose not to resurrect the old thread just to ask for an overview of my current intentions now I am more aware how those games are played. Happy for the history to be available of course.

 

Answering your question ...

 

Both DCA’s are ‘acting on behalf of’ and are not the debt owners, hence my intent to stand them down and deal with the owners regarding write-off. I have less than zero expectation of any DCA bothering with the slightest care or interest!

 

One of them is also THE most shambolic outfit I found myself having to deal with when handling those other/earlier debts.

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who is the client?


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As mentioned in my fresh post, I am now addressing 2 repossessions/shortfalls that are very closely similar and are addressable by the same general moves.

 

One mortgage lender/DCA-client is Cheltenham & Gloucester administered by Lloyds Bank.

 

The other was Southern Pacific Mortgage Ltd., though there is a blurry involvement with a Co named Acenden. A Google search quickly shows manipulation of repackaged mortgages in relationships between SPML and Acenden, though not which arrangements and I never had a response from either when asking.

 

That is why in addition to asking for views on my proposed course of action I have also asked if anyone can shine a light on SPML/Acenden from experience.

 

I need to know which to contact to request that particular write-off, though I expect that I will write to both quoting the same reference but will have a reply from neither.

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C&G

acenden..

 

there are 1000's of threads on acenden and old SP mortgages here.

they are one and the same...


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dx100uk -

 

Been wading through Acenden/SPML/Capstone/etc reports all morning after your pointer to the very many mentions here, and have still barely scratched the surface! What a bunch of crooks!

 

Anyway, that doesn't change the obligations they have toward responding to complaints, requests, challenges and more, so thanks again for clarifying they are one and the same so I can write to them formally.

 

 

If anyone else comes across this new request for help tucked away in what initially appears to be a single continuous flow now that two threads are merged, I would still very much appreciate someone looking at post #9 above at 15:37 yesterday (the current re-start) and check the few lines under "Intentions" to see if my intended steps now sound ok or if there is something I should add/change - I would like to start the wheels turning asap.

 

Many thanks if so!

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Good morning Hannay :)

 

Who are the DCAs currently acting on behalf of the original Lenders ?

 

I have kind of lost touch with the rules and regulations governing shortfalls, however, from what I understand - you are literally 'existing' on your Pensions - which barely cover your essential outgoings. You have no assets which the Lenders/DCAs can leverage.

 

In an earlier post you note that it will take something like 400 years to repay at £5.00 per month and it must cost more than that to administer these debts.

 

I suppose the questions I would be wanting answers to is... if you were to write one more time to the DCAs, explaining that they are wasting their time trying to collect and the effect it is having on your health and well-being and then simply cease payments - what is the worst they could do?

 

dx ??


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Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Thanks CitizenB and good morning.

 

Clear straight-thinking for sure!

 

The worst they could do?

 

May be it is a rhetorical question, but all the same ... off the top of my head .. Perhaps back-away just now for one reason, but then with time just indiscriminately fancy another go-around of a dusty but still-live pre-existing case out of the blue even further in to our 70s? .. or require a formal/legal examination of our finances etc, which is no problem obviously but there's a good few months of messing and stressing right there waiting to happen ...

 

Ideally, having them written-off just removes the cloud, so would be preferred and worth taking a shot at maybe?.

 

DCAs are both new this month having replaced the priors ... end-of-financial-year switch maybe?

 

1) Moorcroft, who were a positive shambles when dealing with one of those previous debts (written-off)

 

2) Capital Recoveries - haven't come across them so far

 

I'm totally happy however to try writing to them in the "flogging a dead horse" language you suggest, with the option to go down the write-off route if that goes nowhere.

 

Just for my understanding, is it actually the DCA's decision? I assumed that as Agent they hadn't that authority and would just pass it through to their client ... I dread to think what a pigs ear Moorcroft particularly would make of it!

 

Anyway, thanks for the most welcome input ...

 

I guess the question is whether to try the dead-horse option or go directly to trying to get it/them written-off ... both ways it remains pointless them continuing to try wringing blood from a stone, but I'm not sure that that amount of common-sense is ever involved!

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bet the DCA's state their client ...who is?


PLEASE DONT HIT QUOTE IF THE LAST POST IS THE ONE YOU ARE REPLYING TOO.

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As mentioned, 1) Lloyds (C&G), and 2) Acenden who I couldn't verify as owner over SPML until you kindly clarified for me that they are in fact the same.

 

Before you did that and pointed me to the mass/mess of SPML/Acenden complaints etc here, I was planning to make a formal request to identify the owner before making any move, but happily that wasn't needed thanks.

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