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i'm asking on behalf of a friend who is a wheelchair user and had to attend homerton hospital for her daughters appointment.

 

they drove around looking for a BB parking space and couldn't find one and as the appointment time was nearing they parked on St Barnabas Terrace.

they are newham council residents and and unfortunately hackney council seem to follow different rules,

in newham they can park in resident only bays etc with a BB.

 

they did not realise that they can not park in the business permit holders only bay with a BB and i know ignorance is not a defence but this was the first time they had ever travelled to hackney to attend a hospital appointment at homerton hospital. there were only 2 bays which they could see for BB holders and they were in use and being in an unfamiliar area they did know where else to look for valid parking.

 

just wanting to know do they have any chance at appeal or not, thank you very much.

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I cannot give any advice by PM - If you provide a link to your Thread then I will be happy to offer advice there.

I advise to the best of my ability, but I am not a qualified professional, benefits lawyer nor Welfare Rights Adviser.

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Thank you for the links and taking time to reply but i was hoping for some info on whether they had any chance at appealing or not. Or if the same has happened to anyone else and they could share their outcome.

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It's always worth an informal challenge within 14 days. If rejected the discount will be re-offered.

 

Essentially you are asking them to use their discretion. Explain the circumstances and especially the fact that as a BB holder from the neighbouring borough where permit bay parking is allowed, you hadn't realised that this differed from borough to borough. Very sorry, honest mistake, won't happen again etc, please use your discretion on this one occasion

 

Some councils allow BB holders their first contravention

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thank you i will try appealing hopefully we get someone sympathetic to their case.

seems silly that there isn't enough BB parking at a hospital though

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this is what i'm hoping to send anyone that can advise if i should edit anything out or add anything then that would be greatly appreciated. thank you once again

 

To whom it may concern,

 

I would like to appeal my PCN that I was served on the 09/05/2018

 

My wife is a disabled wheelchair user and we were attending Homerton Hospital for our young daughters appointment. We have never been to this hospital nor have we been to Hackney before and were unaware that BB rules are different from borough to borough. We live in Newham where BB holders can park in Permit only bays if they display their BB correctly, so wrongly assumed the same applied to Hackney too.

 

We drove around looking for a BB space but they were all full and our appointment time was nearing as it takes my wife a lot of time to alight from the car and get in the wheelchair and from there into the hospital, we thought it was ok to park in the space we did. We were very surprised to see the PCN attached to the vehicle on our return.

 

I would like to ask that as this is our first contravention and we genuinely were not aware of the differing rules that you please use your discretion and cancel this PCN on this occasion as a gesture of goodwill.

 

I would also like to ask if the council would look into increasing the amount of BB spaces closer to the hospital to facilitate the ease of attendance for disabled patients as with mobility issues it is incredibly difficult to get to the hospital.

 

I would like to apologise profusely for my genuine mistake and am including a copy of my daughters appointment letter and a copy of my wifes BB I hope you will look upon this case kindly and see it really was a genuine mistake.

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Without wishing to appear pedantic, the line BB rules are different from borough to borough. would be better ' BB rules differ from borough to borough.'

 

Otherwise, as MB says, 'perfick'

My time as a Police Officer and subsequently time working within the Motor Trade gives me certain insights into the problems that consumers may encounter.

I have no legal qualifications.

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  • 1 month later...

Need a little more help from you lovely people hackney council ignored our appeal and have sent a NTO. My friend called them up and they said we don't respond to letters only emails or more or less along those lines.

 

Now I'm a but miffed as we sent it recorded delivery and have proof of postage that it was delivered. They have an address and email address to send appeals to so how can they ignore written appeals?

 

I'm unsure what to do at this point other than the obvious which is appeal. Should i tick procedural impropriety? If they have a postal address shouldn't they be acknowledging those letters? Even this letter has both email and postal address on it.

 

Any help will be greatly appreciated

 

Thank you

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Their own website says you can submit challenges by post, unless I've misunderstood something. In fact the second link says they don't accept disputes submitted by email? :confused: What's the wording of their letter please?

 

 

 

http://apps.hackney.gov.uk/servapps/OnlineCaseManagement2/

 

 

https://hackney.gov.uk/parking-fines

 

 

 

HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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It says you can make representations online at http://www.hackney.gov.uk/parking or by post to London borough of Hackney.....

 

Do you know how i reply to this NTO?

I'm not sure if i tick procedural impropriety as they haven't acknowledged my informal appeal.

 

I will be sending this via post too as i feel if they ignore this one also then i will win at adjudication as they haven't followed procedure.

Or does it not work that way?

 

From what i can tell they'd been lazy so and so's but that shouldn't mean if we've followed procedure that we should be left out of pocket

 

. Had they read and replied to our first appeal we would have paid it but now they've ignored it and we've lost the discount.

 

If they aren't going to acknowledge posted appeals then they should remove that option and leave only the online version of appealing.

Edited by dx100uk
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The first sentence from my previous post is copied from the letter they sent. I'm sorry but i don't have the know how to attach pics I'm afraid.

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I'm too thick to understand all that

 

Also any idea why im not getting notifications when someone replies?

I used to get an email but no longer seem to

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Quick update hackney council seem to have messed up.

 

We've only done 1 appeal and without acknowledging it they sent the NTO.

 

We've now received a second letter saying that they've looked at our reps and that we still need to pay the fine at the higher rate of £130.

This letter is dated after the NTO and they've used is as if its our reply to the NTO not the initial informal appeal.

We've lost the discount because they've mixed things up.

 

Do i have any chance of appealing and getting out back to the £65 or do i need to go to the ajudicator and appeal on procedural impropriety?

Any help at all would be greatly appreciated.

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Is this correct -

 

 

1. PCN issued

2. You appealed

3. NTO issued

4. They replied to original appeal

 

 

How long before the NTO did you send your original appeal?

 

 

Did you respond after the NTO? If so, what did you say?

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Is this correct -

 

 

1. PCN issued

2. You appealed

3. NTO issued

4. They replied to original appeal

 

 

How long before the NTO did you send your original appeal?

 

 

Did you respond after the NTO? If so, what did you say?

 

yes you're correct

 

pcn received 9th may

we sent the appeal on the 17th may

NTO received 12th june

NOR received 27th june

 

after checking royal mail tracking it turns out hackney didn't pick up the mail until 8th

june

 

i have been seeking advice from pepipoo and they have written the following appeal for me which i was just about to send off.

 

Grounds of representation: Procedural impropriety

Penalty exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case

 

Procedural impropriety

I refer the authority to the PCN dated 09/05/2018

I also refer you to the date of my challenge 15/05/2018, the date of issue of the NTO 12/06/2018 and the date of your letter which you refer to as a Notice of Rejection 27/06/2018.

 

My initial reps having been sent first-class and correctly addressed (see enclosed) were deemed served on the authority 2 working days after posting unless you can prove the contrary. In the absence of such proof, service on 19/05/2018 is presumed. This was 25 days before the issue date of the NTO. Your letter dated 27/06/2018 refers to my initial challenge in the following vague terms:

 

‘Thank you for writing to us.’

 

I refer the authority to regulations 4 and 5 of the Appeals Regulations the relevant combined effect of which is, unsurprisingly, that an authority may only serve a Notice of Rejection of Representations after they have received representations against a NTO.

 

The authority were served with my representations against the PCN (often and hereinafter referred to as a challenge) on 19/05/2018. At no time were you in receipt of representations against the NTO. Your letter tried to finesse this fundamental point by using a vague reference to ‘writing to us’ (it must surely be standard practice for the authority to refer to dates of letters in their correspondence given that the whole enforcement process is time-dependent). However, far from overcoming your difficulty, this only drew attention to your error.*

 

You have committed a procedural impropriety and the PCN must be cancelled.*

 

If you do not, then you must produce proof that you received representations after the NTO was served. In the event that you rely on my challenge dated 15/05/2018 as being representations then you are required to prove receipt after service of the NTO. This burden lies with you, not me.*

 

Penalty exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case

By virtue of the authority committing themselves to re-offer the discount in the event of a challenge being received within the 14-day period, you were obliged to do so. Your letter dated 27/06/2018 does not do so, therefore given that this was issued after the NTO, the NTO was demanding an unlawful penalty.*

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If you haven't sent that yet, please don't - not yet, anyway.

 

I know the guys at Pepipoo are knoweldgeable but there are bits of this which I think are bad, and may do more harm than good in the end.

 

Firstly, can you clarify a couple of the facts:

 

1. in your sequence of events, you mentioned "NTO received 12th june". Is this the date you received it? Or is it the date it was issued? It makes a difference. We need to know the date of issue.

 

2. You say of your appeal letter, "hackney didn't pick up the mail until 8th june". Can you explain this? By Hackney, do you mean the Council? Or Hackney Post Office? And what is meant by "pick up the mail"? What did the Council actually do on 8 June?

 

These two bits of information together could make quite a difference to how you need to approach this. The exact dates are imptortant.

 

As regards the email, I won't 'critique' it, but I wouldn't send it like that if it were me. I don't think it's correct to allege the penalty exceeds the applicable amount (I know why someone would think that, but it's not what the phrase means). There is no burden of proof of this or that on the Council. They don't need to prove when a letter was "served" (what does that even mean?). And I don't think there's any such thing as a "representation against an NTO" - its just a representation against the penalty charge, not a specific document. I would definitely not instruct them that the PCN must be cancelled, or demand proof of anything. And it's not good to accuse them of being unlawful either - they've heard all this kind of stuff a million times, believe me.

 

If you can clarify the exact dates above, I'll give you my view on what I think you should do.

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If you haven't sent that yet, please don't - not yet, anyway.

 

I know the guys at Pepipoo are knoweldgeable but there are bits of this which I think are bad, and may do more harm than good in the end.

 

Firstly, can you clarify a couple of the facts:

 

1. in your sequence of events, you mentioned "NTO received 12th june". Is this the date you received it? Or is it the date it was issued? It makes a difference. We need to know the date of issue.

 

2. You say of your appeal letter, "hackney didn't pick up the mail until 8th june". Can you explain this? By Hackney, do you mean the Council? Or Hackney Post Office? And what is meant by "pick up the mail"? What did the Council actually do on 8 June?

 

These two bits of information together could make quite a difference to how you need to approach this. The exact dates are imptortant.

 

As regards the email, I won't 'critique' it, but I wouldn't send it like that if it were me. I don't think it's correct to allege the penalty exceeds the applicable amount (I know why someone would think that, but it's not what the phrase means). There is no burden of proof of this or that on the Council. They don't need to prove when a letter was "served" (what does that even mean?). And I don't think there's any such thing as a "representation against an NTO" - its just a representation against the penalty charge, not a specific document. I would definitely not instruct them that the PCN must be cancelled, or demand proof of anything. And it's not good to accuse them of being unlawful either - they've heard all this kind of stuff a million times, believe me.

 

If you can clarify the exact dates above, I'll give you my view on what I think you should do.

 

The NTO is dated 12th june we got it a few days later due to post.

 

Our appeal was sent on the 17th may signed for. Upon checking tracking you can see it was finally delivered on the 8th may. I called royal mail and they said thuis may be because it was delivered to a PO box and a card would have been left informing them that they have a signed for item and that it would have only been delivered after the PO box owner's (hackney council) got in touch.

 

I hope that makes sense.

 

I will wait for your reply as i have no knowledge in this area and you've always been really helpful in the past for me.

 

Thank you

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Tricky.

 

 

PCN was issued 9 May and you have 28 days to lodge an informal appeal. That means the council must receive it by 6 June. Whether it was your fault, the Post Office's fault, or the Council's fault, the fact is, they received your appeal after this date. Therefore they are entitled to issue a Notice to Owner.

 

 

 

Did their reply to your letter indicate to you that they had considered the contents, eg did they respond to anything you raised, or was it just a standard template letter?

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Tricky.

 

 

PCN was issued 9 May and you have 28 days to lodge an informal appeal. That means the council must receive it by 6 June. Whether it was your fault, the Post Office's fault, or the Council's fault, the fact is, they received your appeal after this date. Therefore they are entitled to issue a Notice to Owner.

 

 

 

Did their reply to your letter indicate to you that they had considered the contents, eg did they respond to anything you raised, or was it just a standard template letter?

 

No it was just a simple template letter.

 

My friend has called the council up and they have said if he pays by the 10th june he can still pay the reduced rate so hes going to do that as he does not want to persue this further.

 

Thank you everyone for your help and support

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I think that's probably the best decision. I would like to say you can get them on procedural impropriety for not replying but I am doubtful about it, and the best you could hope for realistically is that they reinstate the discount, which they are already offering.

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