Employer withheld wages

[Bigjim24]

Out sick from work long term due to Work injury ( employer negligence)

 

Left work due to illness and employer withheld final wages and payment in lieu of holidays p45 was issued

 

Their reason was a loan to purchase equipment needed for that role in Work and the loan was not finished. There is currently a PI claim in place.

Went down the early conciliation route with ACAS and employer refused to engage so ET filed. At this point employer must have realised they had applied the holiday pay directly to the loan to clear the loan and no deducted tax and ni from it.

 

I have had to apply for out of work benefits and I get a phone call from the DWP stating I was paid in April and currently have no entitlement. This was the holiday pay that they took of the loan made the tax and national insurance deduction and reapplied the payment to the loan

 

I have contacted employer and they basically say tough and are refusing to do anything

 

Where do I stand, I have currently 0 income and a family to feed. Currently selling belongings via fb for food

[king12345]

It's a difficult position to be in, but you'll come out a winner.

Are you in a union?

If so, are their solicitors dealing with the ET claim?

What about the personal injury claim?

In the mean time, if i were you i would get a long term interest free credit card and use that for food and bills, but you need to be very careful with your expenditures.

If in a union they usually have hardship payment schemes or wage payment for a few months when you lose your job and it's not your fault.

Good luck.

[Bigjim24]

thanks for the reply. The union are not backing me. They prevented me pursuing an ET against employer day 1 and I missed the initial time limit and that is why I had to get a solicitor to do PI claim

 

I am taking the separate ET claim for the wages myself although it was reviewed by the employment dept at PI Solicitors office first. It’s not economical to get a solicitor but due to the other case they review for free.

 

Cannot get a credit card as credit is poor as missed payments etc due to long term sick

[Emmzzi]

local welfare assistance?

 

https://www.turn2us.org.uk/Benefit-guides/Emergency-Assistance/Local-Welfare-Assistance

 

and food bank to keep them fed while you sort things out.

[ericsbrother]

so is the equipment you bought with the loan any use to you now you have left their employ? if not they should have bought it in the first place under the PUWER part of the 6 pack.

I know it was common for engineers to make or buy their own tools that they then took with them if they changed jobs but no-one would expect a mechnical engineer to buy a lathe to do his day to day work for example.

let us know what it was that you needed the loan for and the detaisl of its requirement to perform your duties and we might suggest that you recover the money for this from them anyway.

As you have no income there will be a remission of fees and possible elgal aid should you go down the court route. No win no fee is rare for ET or small claim matters but the PI will certainly geain interest from many specialist firms

[Bigjim24]

It was a vehicle that I needed for traveling from site to site and to have this vehicle was a requirement of the role along with specific insurance regarding equipment etc

 

The engine of my initial vehicle I had blew after a few years and Work had a scheme for low interest finance with conditions against the allowances that could be claimed for mileage fuel etc

 

Unfortunately the vehicle will have to go as i can no longer drive a manual and cannot drive at all at the moment due to medication etc.

 

There were less then 6 months payments left on it out of 5 years.

 

The usual procedure for anyone else who left if one of these loans was in place with the more than 3/4 of the payments made was to raise an invoice to them and continue to maintain the agreed monthly payments

 

There was a contact signed by myself and the employer agreeing to a set amount repayable every month.

 

The loan repayments would be affordable even on benefits and that is not the issue as it’s being dealt with via the tribunal

 

My biggest issue now is this “payment “ on the system that is showing stating I received a payment of wages in April which I didn’t. This is preventing me getting any means tested benefits of which I am entitled too.

 

Work are refusing to rectify this as all payments due to me were due beginning of March and my P45 reflects these payments

 

It appears that I am being punished for daring to take a case against them

[Bigjim24]

local welfare assistance?

 

https://www.turn2us.org.uk/Benefit-guides/Emergency-Assistance/Local-Welfare-Assistance

 

and food bank to keep them fed while you sort things out.

 

 

Thanks it looks like this will be the case unfortunately

[ericsbrother]

No employer is allowed to deduct so much from the last pay packet so as to leave a person without money. I think there is a maximum percentage and this is law so overrides any contract regarding repaying the loan. It would apply if it was a season ticket loan as well. Most employers understand that a car isnt a consumabkle item so will accept you continuing to pay them back on the same basis as when you were employed unless you left under a cloud

you should also look into whetehr you got paid the full allowances you could ahve claimed for use of your own vehicle, for example if they paid a mileage allowance did that actually cover your costs and was that allowance tax free? That is why people get company cars, a fleet lease arrangement costs the company less than the cost for paying individuals piecemeal.

[sangie5952]

Sorry, but that is incorrect. An employer is not allowed to deduct from wages to such an extent that it reduces the wage below the MNW / NLW unless there is a written agreement in place. But that does not apply to the final wage, and they can indeed take the whole wage if it is owed, and still go after the employee for any further debt. So yes - they are allowed to leave a person without money.

 

Am I reading this correctly - the employer loaned you money to purchase a vehicle which was registered in your name? If that is the case, the rest is entirely irrelevant I'm afraid. It's your vehicle and the fact you no longer need it is not the employers problem. What they might have done with others, or what other employers have done does not change the fact that you signed a loan contract with the employer, and it is the terms of that contract that apply. If the contract permits them to recoup the loan in the way that they have done, you have given them permission to do it. And if that is the case, your tribunal claim will fail. So those are the issues you need to address - not what happened to other people, whether you need the car or not, or whether they took all our part of the salary. Did they have a loan agreement / contractual agreement, and what do those permit?

 

This is entirely different from a PI claim, but I don't doubt that the reason they have done it is because of that claim. So you are probably right about their motives. But their motives are also irrelevant... the only thing that matters is whether they have the authority to make that deduction. And I'd be surprised if they didn't - I can't recall the last time I saw an employer loan agreement that didn't permit deductions from wages, and since yours had already been taking payments from wages I would assume that they have been doing so under that agreement.

[Bigjim24]

Sorry, but that is incorrect. An employer is not allowed to deduct from wages to such an extent that it reduces the wage below the MNW / NLW unless there is a written agreement in place. But that does not apply to the final wage, and they can indeed take the whole wage if it is owed, and still go after the employee for any further debt. So yes - they are allowed to leave a person without money.

 

Am I reading this correctly - the employer loaned you money to purchase a vehicle which was registered in your name? If that is the case, the rest is entirely irrelevant I'm afraid. It's your vehicle and the fact you no longer need it is not the employers problem. What they might have done with others, or what other employers have done does not change the fact that you signed a loan contract with the employer, and it is the terms of that contract that apply. If the contract permits them to recoup the loan in the way that they have done, you have given them permission to do it. And if that is the case, your tribunal claim will fail. So those are the issues you need to address - not what happened to other people, whether you need the car or not, or whether they took all our part of the salary. Did they have a loan agreement / contractual agreement, and what do those permit?

 

This is entirely different from a PI claim, but I don't doubt that the reason they have done it is because of that claim. So you are probably right about their motives. But their motives are also irrelevant... the only thing that matters is whether they have the authority to make that deduction. And I'd be surprised if they didn't - I can't recall the last time I saw an employer loan agreement that didn't permit deductions from wages, and since yours had already been taking payments from wages I would assume that they have been doing so under that agreement.

 

Apologies I have had no internet for a few days now.

I have been told by 2 employment Solicitors and ACAS that they are in the wrong regarding withholding the pay

 

My more immediate concern is the way they processed the holiday pay.

 

They processed the holiday pay after they had even issued my p45.

 

They initially paid it against the loan without deducting the tax and ni. They then took it off in April and made the necessary page and ni deductions and put it back on the loan

 

This is now showing as a payment on the system and as a result I cannot get any benefit entitlement

[unclebulgaria67]

Apologies I have had no internet for a few days now.

I have been told by 2 employment Solicitors and ACAS that they are in the wrong regarding withholding the pay

 

My more immediate concern is the way they processed the holiday pay.

 

They processed the holiday pay after they had even issued my p45.

 

They initially paid it against the loan without deducting the tax and ni. They then took it off in April and made the necessary page and ni deductions and put it back on the loan

 

This is now showing as a payment on the system and as a result I cannot get any benefit entitlement

 

Have you looked into New Style ESA contribution based benefit ? This is a benefit that is based on you having paid National Insurance enough for 2 out of the last 3 years and you currently being not fit to work.

 

Would you be eligible to receive payment under that, given your health situation ?

[Emmzzi]

https://www.gov.uk/understanding-your-pay/deductions-from-your-pay

[sangie5952]

Apologies I have had no internet for a few days now.

I have been told by 2 employment Solicitors and ACAS that they are in the wrong regarding withholding the pay

 

My more immediate concern is the way they processed the holiday pay.

 

They processed the holiday pay after they had even issued my p45.

 

They initially paid it against the loan without deducting the tax and ni. They then took it off in April and made the necessary page and ni deductions and put it back on the loan

 

This is now showing as a payment on the system and as a result I cannot get any benefit entitlement

 

If ACAS told me that you can't normally claim unfair dismissal without two years service, I'd go and check - they get things wrong more often than they should. And I can't see your contacts but be cautious if the solicitors haven't either... all I am telling you is that such deductions can be lawful if you have agreed them, and it is very unusual for an employer to process a large loan without ensuring they have the right to deduct from salary. And if they have already been doing so without such an agreement in place, technically you have a right to reclaim all those. Although you would still owe the money. But I was actually clarifying the point that a previous poster had made - it is not correct that that an empire is limited in how much of a final salary deduction they can make. The issue at hand is whether they have that written agreement or not, not the amount of the deduction.

 

Tax law isn't my forte, but it's not uncommon for people to be owed pay ( back pay for example) after a P45 had been issued, and I understood that they can't "go backwards" and apply the payment to a previous tax period, even if it relates to that period. But I'd be happy to be corrected in that matter. I agree that it's not "nice" to leave you without money, but that isn't unlawful per se, and none of their concern whether you qualify for benefits. I'm not being harsh in saying that - just stating the facts as I see them. Your eligibility for benefits isn't their concern, but their correct payments to HMRC are. You might be better asking about this on a benefits board - I don't know much about benefits, and many posters here won't necessarily know the answers. Because one thing is certain - you won't get a tribunal judgement on this sooner than you qualify for benefits, and if they refuse to conciliate, whether you won a tribunal or not, it won't get you money now when you need it.

[Bigjim24]

If ACAS told me that you can't normally claim unfair dismissal without two years service, I'd go and check - they get things wrong more often than they should. And I can't see your contacts but be cautious if the solicitors haven't either... all I am telling you is that such deductions can be lawful if you have agreed them, and it is very unusual for an employer to process a large loan without ensuring they have the right to deduct from salary. And if they have already been doing so without such an agreement in place, technically you have a right to reclaim all those. Although you would still owe the money. But I was actually clarifying the point that a previous poster had made - it is not correct that that an empire is limited in how much of a final salary deduction they can make. The issue at hand is whether they have that written agreement or not, not the amount of the deduction.

 

Tax law isn't my forte, but it's not uncommon for people to be owed pay ( back pay for example) after a P45 had been issued, and I understood that they can't "go backwards" and apply the payment to a previous tax period, even if it relates to that period. But I'd be happy to be corrected in that matter. I agree that it's not "nice" to leave you without money, but that isn't unlawful per se, and none of their concern whether you qualify for benefits. I'm not being harsh in saying that - just stating the facts as I see them. Your eligibility for benefits isn't their concern, but their correct payments to HMRC are. You might be better asking about this on a benefits board - I don't know much about benefits, and many posters here won't necessarily know the answers. Because one thing is certain - you won't get a tribunal judgement on this sooner than you qualify for benefits, and if they refuse to conciliate, whether you won a tribunal or not, it won't get you money now when you need it.

 

Sorry for the late reply, my internet service has been disconnected as I can’t pay for it.

 

I had given my work contract and car loan agreement to both Acas and solicitor. There is nothing in the contract or agreement allowing them to do what they have done.

 

There is a paragraph in the agreement that does discuss leaving during the term which states payments as agreed must be maintained until the loan is repaid in full

[sangie5952]

Sorry for the late reply, my internet service has been disconnected as I can’t pay for it.

 

I had given my work contract and car loan agreement to both Acas and solicitor. There is nothing in the contract or agreement allowing them to do what they have done.

 

There is a paragraph in the agreement that does discuss leaving during the term which states payments as agreed must be maintained until the loan is repaid in full

 

And are all your payments up to date? I ask because if you are unable to pay for your Internet service, does that mean that you have missed loan payments? Do you see where this is going? The law rarely exists in a vacuum. It isn't as simple as simply saying that they shouldn't have deducted this from your final payment. That might be the case, in isolation. But is your alternative ending up in court for defaulting on your debt, and the consequences of that? I honestly have to say that there is no straight forward answer to this. But it still comes back to the fact that the employer has the money, and no court action will get it from them in a matter of weeks if they are refusing to pay it to you, so it will not solve your current predicament. I'm surprised that your solicitor doesn't consider this to be "part of their job" since where there is a bigger legal/ financial claim, it would commonly be all seen as part of the same issue (since you wouldn't be in this situation if it weren't for the alleged negligence/ liability), but again, that doesn't help you right now. And I'm not sure what would.

[BazzaS]

Regarding the PI claim : has the employer (and/or their insurer!) been contacted regarding:

a) an interim payment (especially if liability isn’t disputed, but quantum is), and

b) early rehabilitation.

What stage is the PI claim at?

 

This doesn’t have anything to do with the thread’s title, but may give you some income much quicker than an ET claim.

[Bigjim24]

And are all your payments up to date? I ask because if you are unable to pay for your Internet service, does that mean that you have missed loan payments? Do you see where this is going? The law rarely exists in a vacuum. It isn't as simple as simply saying that they shouldn't have deducted this from your final payment. That might be the case, in isolation. But is your alternative ending up in court for defaulting on your debt, and the consequences of that? I honestly have to say that there is no straight forward answer to this. But it still comes back to the fact that the employer has the money, and no court action will get it from them in a matter of weeks if they are refusing to pay it to you, so it will not solve your current predicament. I'm surprised that your solicitor doesn't consider this to be "part of their job" since where there is a bigger legal/ financial claim, it would commonly be all seen as part of the same issue (since you wouldn't be in this situation if it weren't for the alleged negligence/ liability), but again, that doesn't help you right now. And I'm not sure what would.

 

The loan payments were completely up to date. There was an agreement for them to deduct that exact amount from my salary at source on a monthly basis. My solicitor is a PI solicitor only and did refer me to employment solicitor who reviewed everything and said I do have a case for ET but it’s not economical to pursue via solicitor as costs would outweigh the award. The PI solicitor can only include this as what they have done has had further health implications but Work and insurance have not issued a response other than acknowledgement of the claim and paperwork to schedule a court date is being issued next week. It was felt by both Solicitors at the time the ET May be quicker

 

Internet has been cut off as I missed the payment at the end of March due to wages being withheld.

 

Dwp have now said I am entitled to benefits but payment will not commence until end of May as they are basing this on what Work has done even though p45 shows correct gross figures and leaving date as March

Edited May 12, 2018 by Bigjim24

[Bigjim24]

Regarding the PI claim : has the employer (and/or their insurer!) been contacted regarding:

a) an interim payment (especially if liability isn’t disputed, but quantum is), and

b) early rehabilitation.

What stage is the PI claim at?

 

This doesn’t have anything to do with the thread’s title, but may give you some income much quicker than an ET claim.

 

Work have completely shut down and are not communicating with me or pi solicitor. Court papers are being filed next week

[BazzaS]

has the employer (and/or their insurer!) been contacted regarding:

a) an interim payment (especially if liability isn’t disputed, but quantum is), and

b) early rehabilitation.

 

Work have completely shut down and are not communicating with me or pi solicitor. Court papers are being filed next week

 

And their insurer?

[sangie5952]

I fear that we are talking at cross purposes and that we can't really assist you here. These boards are always limited by the fact that we know part of the story, from one point of view. in this case there is a huge picture, and we have a corner piece of the jigsaw!

 

You say that the solicitor told you an ET was quicker. That begs the question "quicker than what?". If we are talking about a PI claim, that's certainly true. I've been dealing with one of these for four years now and the end isn't yet in sight - and the employer agrees with the claim! PI claims typically take years unless they are relatively minor, and if that were the case one assumes you wouldn't have lost your job over it. Maybe I'm being pessimistic, but we generally allow for 5-7 years for a contested claim, at least. That's assuming the employer actually still exists at the end of that period, of course.

 

But unless you are living in that area of the country where there are no lengthy lists for tribunals (and I don't know where that is - the lists are over the top everywhere I see) you could still be waiting several months for a hearing. Let's assume the employer plays out the response deadline the full 28 days, then agrees to pay, but draws out the payment - that's what, a couple of months? They decide to let the tribunal take its course - possibly as little as another 2-3 months, but could be 6 or more!

 

Your question was, what can you do because you can't afford food now. So assuming that you are right and they shouldn't have taken that money, it's irrelevant - you still won't be able to get any money quicker than the benefits system pays out. Which is why I have suggested that you would be well advised to get advice on your current situation and what can be done about it now.

 

And your payments might have been up to date in March. It's May now, and you still owe them money. Are you paying your loan now? Probably not if you can't afford food. That is what I was saying before - you can be counter sued for not paying the loan. That going too continue to be the case, and what you owe will continue to grow - anything you might win, eventually, at a tribunal doesn't pay the bills now and could be more than wiped out by action against you by the employer.

 

Which is why I am perplexed that the solicitor isn't tying them in knots over this. It is a situation arising directly out of the alleged negligence. If we were confident that there was a negligence case, then we would be treating this as part of the claim. Not that that would get the money any faster (although we would have passed you to our welfare fund by now for immediate help). But we wouldn't be leaving it to you to sort out. And we wouldn't be expecting it to do a thing to resolve your current cash flow issues. We'd have told you that.

 

So I'm not sure what we can do to help you to get money faster. I don't see an employment law related method of doing that. And that's what I'm trying to say - this is all complicated, it takes time, and it doesn't, literally, put food on the table today. Possibly someone on the benefits board will have an idea about how to do that - but it's not entirely likely that there will be someone on this board who can so unless someone with great benefits knowledge happens in this thread, you won't be seen....

[BazzaS]

 

You say that the solicitor told you an ET was quicker. That begs the question "quicker than what?". If we are talking about a PI claim, that's certainly true. I've been dealing with one of these for four years now and the end isn't yet in sight - and the employer agrees with the claim! PI claims typically take years unless they are relatively minor, and if that were the case one assumes you wouldn't have lost your job over it. Maybe I'm being pessimistic, but we generally allow for 5-7 years for a contested claim, at least. That's assuming the employer actually still exists at the end of that period, of course.

 

..........

 

Your question was, what can you do because you can't afford food now.

 

.......

 

Which is why I am perplexed that the solicitor isn't tying them in knots over this. It is a situation arising directly out of the alleged negligence. If we were confident that there was a negligence case, then we would be treating this as part of the claim. Not that that would get the money any faster (although we would have passed you to our welfare fund by now for immediate help). But we wouldn't be leaving it to you to sort out. And we wouldn't be expecting it to do a thing to resolve your current cash flow issues. We'd have told you that.

 

So I'm not sure what we can do to help you to get money faster. I don't see an employment law related method of doing that. And that's what I'm trying to say - this is all complicated, it takes time, and it doesn't, literally, put food on the table today.

 

I agree final resolution to a PI claim isn’t likely to be soon.

Yet, unless the insurer disputes liability completely, an interim payment should be possible, and NOW (or very soon).

Interim payment are usually found in multi-track cases, and sometimes in fast track cases.

 

OP, has your PI solicitor said why an interim payment isn’t a realistic prospect?

Why hasn’t a claim yet been issued??

[Bigjim24]

I fear that we are talking at cross purposes and that we can't really assist you here. These boards are always limited by the fact that we know part of the story, from one point of view. in this case there is a huge picture, and we have a corner piece of the jigsaw!

 

You say that the solicitor told you an ET was quicker. That begs the question "quicker than what?". If we are talking about a PI claim, that's certainly true. I've been dealing with one of these for four years now and the end isn't yet in sight - and the employer agrees with the claim! PI claims typically take years unless they are relatively minor, and if that were the case one assumes you wouldn't have lost your job over it. Maybe I'm being pessimistic, but we generally allow for 5-7 years for a contested claim, at least. That's assuming the employer actually still exists at the end of that period, of course.

 

But unless you are living in that area of the country where there are no lengthy lists for tribunals (and I don't know where that is - the lists are over the top everywhere I see) you could still be waiting several months for a hearing. Let's assume the employer plays out the response deadline the full 28 days, then agrees to pay, but draws out the payment - that's what, a couple of months? They decide to let the tribunal take its course - possibly as little as another 2-3 months, but could be 6 or more!

 

Your question was, what can you do because you can't afford food now. So assuming that you are right and they shouldn't have taken that money, it's irrelevant - you still won't be able to get any money quicker than the benefits system pays out. Which is why I have suggested that you would be well advised to get advice on your current situation and what can be done about it now.

 

And your payments might have been up to date in March. It's May now, and you still owe them money. Are you paying your loan now? Probably not if you can't afford food. That is what I was saying before - you can be counter sued for not paying the loan. That going too continue to be the case, and what you owe will continue to grow - anything you might win, eventually, at a tribunal doesn't pay the bills now and could be more than wiped out by action against you by the employer.

 

Which is why I am perplexed that the solicitor isn't tying them in knots over this. It is a situation arising directly out of the alleged negligence. If we were confident that there was a negligence case, then we would be treating this as part of the claim. Not that that would get the money any faster (although we would have passed you to our welfare fund by now for immediate help). But we wouldn't be leaving it to you to sort out. And we wouldn't be expecting it to do a thing to resolve your current cash flow issues. We'd have told you that.

 

So I'm not sure what we can do to help you to get money faster. I don't see an employment law related method of doing that. And that's what I'm trying to say - this is all complicated, it takes time, and it doesn't, literally, put food on the table today. Possibly someone on the benefits board will have an idea about how to do that - but it's not entirely likely that there will be someone on this board who can so unless someone with great benefits knowledge happens in this thread, you won't be seen....

 

Family are sending Tesco deliveries at the moment for food. I can’t make any loan payments as they have withheld details of where to send the money etc I don’t have it anyway.

 

I have requested those details 2 from them via email which they have acknowledged but nothing is forthcoming.

 

I don’t even have an up to date statement showing any balance owed as I presume them having withheld 2k it may be cleared in full as interest would be adjusted for early repayment

[sangie5952]

I agree final resolution to a PI claim isn’t likely to be soon.

Yet, unless the insurer disputes liability completely, an interim payment should be possible, and NOW (or very soon).

Interim payment are usually found in multi-track cases, and sometimes in fast track cases.

 

OP, has your PI solicitor said why an interim payment isn’t a realistic prospect?

Why hasn’t a claim yet been issued??

 

I don't disagree at all. But I think you are possibly being overly optimistic about interim claims here. Even if the insurer agrees there is a valid case of some sort, the claim hasn't been made yet if I am reading the OP correctly. And it seems that all this is very recent - we are talking about events of the last few weeks, albeit the accident may have been longer ago. Even an interim payment takes some time, and that assumes that the claim isn't entirely disputed, in which case there won't be one. It could take several months or much, much longer to get a penny, even IF there is an interim payment.

 

So I disagree that a payment should be possible soon or now - that only applies if the the employer doesn't resist the entire claim. And I don't know what is going on, what happened, or anything else - but I do note that there is a great deal more to this story; and the union have refused to support the OP. Rightly or wrongly, that suggests that this isn't straight forward, which simply makes the prospective timescale less certain.

[BazzaS]

Even an interim payment takes some time, and that assumes that the claim isn't entirely disputed, in which case there won't be one.

 

It doesn’t matter if the employer resists : it is the insurer who will make an interim payment, and can do so early (to avoid the court’s wrath!).

 

Yet, I agree: it depends on the many variables, including if liability is absolutely disputed.

 

Yet, unless the insurer disputes liability completely,

 

We may be agreeing more than we disagree!