F&Fsecured loan with Elderbridge - coerced debt and selling house

[Myfamily]

exactly!. this was a repossession case. their particulars of claim give the arrears figure as well as the full balance of the loan. so their claim was well over the 25k?

[AndyOrch]

CPR 55 (2) The court will only allocate possession claims to the small claims track if all the parties agree.

 

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part55

 

http://www.letlink.co.uk/letting-info/2016-01-21-12-29-33/possession-and-repossession/112-articles/possession-and-repossession/436-possession-procedures-and-the-new-civil-procedure-rules

[Myfamily]

I was in court for that hearing, I don't recall it being mentioned, I remember that we had the hearing and as the hearing was very short as we had a lot of points to raise the judge said that it would be best to have at trial. that was it.

 

Also I understand that there is some cap on costs when in the multi track, any idea what the cap is? because they submitted an estimate of costs to be assessed, but as far as I can see this should only happen I the case is in the multi track?

 

in the end costs were not mentioned in the last hearing, the court has confirmed too.

 

In May I wrote to Elderbridge and disputed the settlement figures as they have included 36K of court costs that were not actually awarded, they have treated this as a complaint, and in July sent me a letter saying they have no made a decision abut my complaint yet but are still investigating, they gave me the option to forward my complaint to the FOS which I will be doing.

 

The first letter disputing the settlement figure was sent by EMAIL on the 15th May and in their first acknowledgement letter (dated 28th) they says they received my letter by e-mail on the 23rd! thereby putting them within the 5 day limit for acknowledging complaints - convenient!

 

I've had enough of these people, they lie constantly, I need to get rid of them,.

 

Does anyone know how it works with selling the house with a secured loan in dispute. once sold the full amount quoted n their settlement figure would be covered (but I don't want to pay them that much - if anything!) so I need to know if this money can be held with the conveyance solicitor until the dispute is resolved, in which case they then release the amount agreed to them, is this possible??

[AndyOrch]

Multi-track cases not subject to fixed costs – effective 6 April 2017.

 

The new rules give statutory force to the Court of Appeal’s decision in Qader & Others v Esure Ltd & Khan v McGee [2016] EWCA Civ 1109, 16 November 2016 by specifically providing that Fixed Recoverable Costs apply only “for as long as the case is not allocated to the multi-track.”

 

£25,000.00 upper fixed costs limit scrapped – effective 6 April 2017

 

The words “but not more than £25,000.00” are removed throughout the CPR 45.29 fixed costs tables.

 

Thus an ex-portal claim remains subject to Fixed Recoverable Costs whatever its value. It is only allocation to the multi-track that takes it out of fixed costs.

 

But if they were not awarded costs then the above is irrelevant...what did the judgment state ?

[Myfamily]

My trial was allocated to the Fast track - I don't believe it should have been - as the amount was well over 25k

 

The trial was in Oct 2013! at the trial, the judge said that the costs would be reserved till the next hearing (Jan 2014) then at the next hearing the costs were never discussed! I asked the court recently about who the costs were awarded to and got this reply "The court did not order either parties to pay costs in the orders I can see from the case screen. "

[AndyOrch]

Then tell them to remove the 36k from the balance or you will escalate their malpractice.

[Myfamily]

well have made a complaint about them including the costs and am going to forward to the FOS, this complaint was made to Elderbridge, who said they were investigating but it well over 8 weeks and no answer from them.

 

the problem is my house is under offer now, I don't want this to stop the sale, so I have asked the solicitor if its possible to hold the money they claim in the solicitors account until both parties agree on and amount to be paid. not sure how this works?

[AndyOrch]

As long as you have informed your conveyancing solicitor that they have inflated the figure with costs that they are not legally entitled to add....they were never awarded costs...and instruct him to adjust accordingly.

[Myfamily]

ok sounds good. the only problem is that it's not just the costs that I am about to contest. I have found out a lot more since the last time we were in court. as far as I can see they also did not to a proper disclosure. I know at least 3 customer who have had their balance reduced to zero due to a number of things, so what I want to do is sell the house and leave the full amount with he solicitor until we can agree on the amount owed, I don't think it should be anywhere close to the 100K or so that they think, and I have calculated that I have paid 94k.

 

I have done a SAR and now have about 2 weeks till that comes through which should hopefully have a lot more information in it from the court, and communications between Elderbridge, me and their solicitors which might help persuade them to amend the balance, but I just need to know whether they can stop the sale because of this, or if the solicitor holding the money is enough

[AndyOrch]

Your conveyance solicitor will be fully experienced in dealing and agreeing with the outstanding balance which they have to provide before you can redeem the mortgage...wont affect the sale.

[Myfamily]

I really hope so, I need the sale to go through

Great, well just got off the phone with the conveyancing solicitors, who have said that I need a more specialist solicitor, one that can do the conveyancing but also give advice about the loan -told them I am not looking for their help re the loan - I just need them to hold the funds - this is going to be a nightmare isn't it?

some further developments.

I contacted the court to ask them why it was allocated to the fast track, they say according to the notes a directions questionnaire was not required/completed in this matter?? - What the...??

Also they cannot locate my file! - great!!

they said once they have located it they'll be able to tell me why it was allocated to Fast Track.

I am lost for words!

[AndyOrch]

Did you retain a copy of your DQ ?

[Myfamily]

that's the thing, I didn't remember completing one that's why I checked with the court, they confirmed the DQ was not required/completed

[AndyOrch]

Did you raise a dispute to the claim ? If not it would not require allocation and would have automatically been placed in either FT or MT.

 

 

The hearing

 

CPR 55.8

 

(1) At the hearing fixed in accordance with rule 55.5(1) or at any adjournment of that hearing, the court may –

 

(a) decide the claim; or

 

(b) give case management directions.

 

(2) Where the claim is genuinely disputed on grounds which appear to be substantial, case management directions given under paragraph (1)(b) will include the allocation of the claim to a track or directions to enable it to be allocated.

 

(3) Except where –

 

(a) the claim is allocated to the fast track or the multi-track; or

 

(b) the court orders otherwise,

 

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part55

[Myfamily]

Well yes, I put in a defence!

[AndyOrch]

Then as per my last post ...the court must have decided to dispense with DQs and placed it automatically in Fast Track...always handy to retain a file from any court dealings then you have all the paperwork to hand for future reference.

[Myfamily]

well if it was that straight forward and Elderbridge believed they are correct to charge the costs or add them to my loan etc, then why has it taken them over 4 1/2 months to tell me so.

 

They still have not responded to me about this, they've treated it as a complaint and have not replied!

[Whatnot]

MF I have nothing but admiration for you, I’m very glad that you have the buyer , if it were me in your position now, I would go back to court and let the judge know the other party are trying to add costs even tho these can sometimes be added to the final mortgage amount and and find out if indeed it was the judges intention you should be liable, because maybe there is a difference between a secured loan and a mortgage ?

 

The other aspect worth mentioning i think, is that firstplus failed on many counts to adhere to pre court action protocol also failed the the lenders duties, together with many other aspects listed in the shelter advice site leading to: order the lender to pay your legal costs and stop your lender from adding their costs on to what you already owe them.

[AndyOrch]

well if it was that straight forward and Elderbridge believed they are correct to charge the costs or add them to my loan etc, then why has it taken them over 4 1/2 months to tell me so.

 

They still have not responded to me about this, they've treated it as a complaint and have not replied!

 

They cant add them...we have already covered that.

[Myfamily]

Thanks Andy,

 

Not much I can do right now I suppose, I'm waiting to hear from the court that they've found my file, waiting for my SAR to come back too.

 

When he SAR gets to me, I plan to make them an offer, I have already paid around 94k, I borrowed 100k, they can have 6k at the most. Or I pull out of my sale and go to court.

 

I am aware that they have now settled with 5 other customers now. I know things that I don't think they want me to know, it'll be in their interest to make a deal

[Myfamily]

well it will come as no shock that Elderbridge have not complied with the SAR, I have now complained to the ICO. also still no reply to my complaint re the settlement amount.

But got this from the court, which still doesn't make any sense!

‘This is a mortgage case, so the mortgage itself usually entitles the Claimant to add legal costs to the mortgage account. The court therefore does not order costs and the Defendant will need to check with the Claimant what costs (if any) were added to the mortgage account. The case was allocated to the Fast Track by order of District Judge ****** made on ** June 2013. That decision would have been made based on the type of claim, its value and complexity among other factors.’

I replied back to them

The issue I have is that the case was for over 100k which is well above the 25k limit, it was also quite complicated.

It is my understand that costs can only be added to the mortgage account if they are reasonable but the costs were not assessed. Also in a fast track trial I believe the costs are capped, but capped at what? They supplied an estimate of their costs but as explained costs were not discussed in the last hearing, I do not understand how the judge can say in the Trial that costs will be discussed in the next hearing, then not discuss them and this then means that the claimant can just add them?'

their next reply was

'As mentioned in our previous email, the file was located and referred to the judge along with your correspondence. The previous email contains the judge’s comments after reading your correspondence. Also, please note that court staff are unable to comment on judicial decisions. If you are not satisfied with the decision and want to contest it, please seek legal advise on how to proceed. '

It makes no sense to me that they would mention in the trail that costs would be reserved till the next hearing then not mention them at all and because of that Elderbridge are allowed to just add them. also surely the court also needs to clarify whether interest can be added as it looks like that's what they've done!

any further advise greatly appreciated

further to this .

Got a letter from Elderbridge saying our signatures do not match and asking for ID! received yesterday but dated 11th Oct (conveniently 1 day before the 30 day deadline) are they seriously expecting me to believe that it took 7 day to reach me!!! come on now!

I am absolutely livid (as you may be able to tell!)

Now the loan was taken out before we were married so I thought they might says that my signature did not match and ask me for ID but they are asking for both of ours - my husbands signature has not changed for over 30 years!! they are also asking me for a certified copy of my marriage cert.

I called the ICO and explained the above, told them I believe they backdated the later to be within the time limit - she agreed that it seemed that way, and that they should have immediately replied to my request asking for my ID not waited till the 30 days was up or almost up.

she advised me that if I want the data then I will need to send them something to prove my id, but she sad that she thought having a certified copy was not proportionate. and that they will most likely be in trouble for delaying it so long

she told me to send reply to them then forward that to the ICO along with a copy of their letter received yesterday and it will all be added to my complaint.

I am just so annoyed at the complete lack of respect they have for me or any of their customers, trying to pull the wool over my eyes like that, did they think I was born yesterday??!!

[dx100uk]

And you expected anything else but them do do that?

 

Send ctax bill copy

[BankFodder]

open

[Myfamily]

Thanks Bankfodder!

Hello again everyone. 

I received my SAR back from Elderbridge and what and absolute load of **** it is!

1.  They did not send any transcripts or recordings of any phones calls  - both myself and my husband spoke to them in Aug 2016 (noted in their diary notes) and I called them in Dec 2018 (again noted in their diary notes) it was the same day they sent the reply even though they have mentioned me calling in their notes on that day, so not sure I should let that go or not!   I also spoke to them in July 2016 (again in the notes) and I spoke to them in Dec 2012 (again in the notes) 

2.  Going through the diary notes in the beginning notes were sporadic mainly because we were making payment and everything was ok, then later as things changed there were notes almost once a month, then in NOV 2012 and Dec 2012 frequency of notes increase as this is when they began court proceedings.  and throughout 2013 again lots of notes made - mostly their in house stuff about court dealings and so on - so that's fine.

then in NOV 2013 hey made a not re the court date in OCT - saying that they were ordered to treat the loan as having a fixed rate from inception and sent off etc.  BUT from 21 Nov 2013 to 17th June 2014 there are no notes at all!  Now the hearing was on the 10th Jan 2014!

17/06/2014 14:43	*****Substantial EVS costs to be added to any SF ******
17/06/2014 14:43	EVS Defended +
At the hearing on 10/01/2014 an SPO for 500 on 26/01/2014 and then CMI + £60 wef 26/02/2014 plus MJ for £103,331.03 suspended on the same terms. It was also held that we could add our costs - Defended costs on this case are £33,879.80.
17/06/2014 00:00	Reviewed
Reviewed
17/06/2014 00:00	***Defended Costs*****:To be added to any SF
***Defended Costs*****:To be added to any SF
21/11/2013 04:13	ADHOC Statement Printed
From 03/10/13 To 13/11/13 Batch 2015 Sequence 28 Printed 13/11/2013 00:00:00

Above you can Cleary see the gap then suddenly the first notes talk about the court case and costs etc, at the trial in OCT the judge reserved cost till the next hearing (also stated on the documentation from the court)  but then at that hearing in Jan 2014 we did not discuss costs - the 6 month gap I feel is very suspicious. 

The final court document  dated 13th Jan 2014 says to pay the claimant £103,331.03 which is the amount outstanding under the mortgage and goes on to says order were not to be enforced as long as we pay etc.  no mention of costs at all - so they seem to just be adding them

3.   They sent a field agent to me in Jan 2018, I only knew this as on the 9th Jan 2018 I was working at home and heard the letterbox, thought it was the postman, went to the door to find an envelope shoved through the door with a letter in it saying they had been requested to visit me and that they called today but I was not in! and gave a number for me to call ( I saw the woman walking down the driveway - but she did not ring the bell! and I wasn't about to run after her!)

But in the notes they have written this utter lie!

30/01/2018 12:44	Field Agent Report Received
The field agent visited the security address on three occasions.
The customer was spoken to through the window. They refused to discuss and refused to answer the door.
The contact number on file is not recognised.
RFA - Not known
Reasons for items not verified/A
Details of variances of items outside of expenditure guidelines and reasons N/A
Property is a detached house in good condition valued at £406,000. Equity not known.

I actually cannot believe what I have read here! Can I ask them for some kind of proof of this, because I don't know who they are talking about but it certainly wasn't me!

4.  the documents they had sent me a joke, they have sent 77 documents in total, none of these are copies of letter from Elderbridge (which is who I sent the SAR to) all from First Plus and certainly not ALL of them, they have been bulked out by sending me copies of documents that I sent TO THEM for my court defence and there are strange Black boxes over some of the text!? which I don't understand!

After receiving this info from Elderbridge I decided to send a SAR to Barclays and I got a small package with a couple of letters, some diary notes and screen shot of the account, as well as a short statement of account. This was for our ORIGINAL loan from Feb 2006,  (we topped it up in June 2006) and the first one was closed. 

The second one is the one that has been transferred to Elderbridge but Barclays seem to know be denying ALL knowledge of it! and I know that they still hold the beneficial interest of these loans and that Elderbridge regularly contact Barclays for help and advise - I have contact with other account holders who have diary notes from Elderbridge showing contact to Barclays!..

This week I also had a reply from the FOS (only from an adjudicator not an ombudsman) and his initial opinion is that it's ok for Elderbridge to claim the costs as we defaulted, he seems to be ignoring my argument that the relationship is unfair etc but I will be sending this back and asking for it to be looked at by an ombudsman.

But was hoping that someone here could give me any advise re all of this - sorry I know it's a lot!!

Can anyone help please?  I really need to get my response back to the FOS today - or they will close my case!

Edited July 18, 2019 by Myfamily

[Myfamily]

• The FOS have finally seen that there is a massive issue with these loans after years of customers telling them. I was taken to court by them in 2013/2014 for possession but successfully got a decision from the judge that the interest rate variation clause written in the contract was unfair (see Firstplus vs Murphy & Dye) but others have not been so lucky - some have lost their homes to these people or are maybe still struggling to pay them
  
  If you have a first plus loan (now transferred to Elderbridge) please make sure you make a complaint to Elderbridge or Barclays first plus asap! please feel free to use the court judgement above too - although it did not set a precedent, it will only help you!
  
  Please also check out the following urls (use chrome) - these are archived web pages from first plus's website
  
  the first is in 2006 - under the section
  How does the variable interest rate affect my loan?
  
  they state quite clearly
  
  "From time-to-time, your monthly repayments may go up or down in accordance with the Bank of England interest rate movements."
  
  http://web.archive.org/web/20060812175251/http://www.firstplus.co.uk/new_customers_faq.aspx#loanfor
  
  Yet they did not reduce their rates when the BOE rate dropped to a historic low did they?
  
  then 2008 where you can see they changed it to say "This is the rate of interest that fluctuates over time with general interest rates" – becoming quite vague in their explanations.
  
  http://web.archive.org/web/20080223123115/http://www.firstplus.co.uk/aboutourloans/Pages/loan-jargon-buster.aspx#v
  
  And finally in 2015 close to when they sold their loan book to Elderbridge they then changed their website and then said that it is not tied to the BOE or FHBR
  
  http://web.archive.org/web/20150511120847/http://www.firstplus.co.uk/FAQs(please select Interest rate changes for the dropdown to view)
  
  Here it states
  
  "The product is a variable rate product and the rates charged on the loan are not tied to the Bank of England or Finance House Base Rate.
  
  Our terms and conditions permit changes to the rate for various reasons, including to reflect changes to interest rates and to ensure our business is carried out prudently, efficiently and competitively. The reasons which allow us to vary the interest rate are set out in your loan terms and conditions."
  
  This is a clear contradiction to the version in 2006 when most customers took out their loans.
  
  This is simply mis-selling of product as well as being unfair, you have not been able to predict or rely on any specific market deviations that may give rise to a change, moreover, they do not provide any specific data to enable you as the customer to plan for any such changes.
  
  I have now not paid them for 2 years and complained again last year - my case is with the FOS and I hope that it will resolved soon, I have done a simple internet search and found a freedom of information request to the FOS for the numbers of complaints about this, the reply was that they have negotiated settlements on 150 cases and have 60 outstanding (this letter was dated July 2020)
  
  I in my complaint to first plus I advised that I have been given a lot of information from a friend who was in court with them but due to what she was about to ask for in court they very quickly settled her account in full after previously giving her a settlement figure of 189k! Based on this I stopped paying them 2 years ago and they have not chased me - now I do not suggest you do that as it will affect your credit score - I did because I had already suffered the default on my credit report for 6 years so would not affect me and I wanted them to take me to court again but they have not even written to me to ask why I have stopped paying.
  
  So again please make sure you make a complaint now - you will need to give Elderbridge 8 weeks to resolve -they will deny that they have done anything wrong but after that make sure you send to the FOS. Do not be put off by anyone on other advise sites such as Moneysaving expert or elsewhere, you have been miss-sold miss-led and generally treated badly and it's time for payback!