Jump to content


Ms Angry

Unlawfully withdrawn Mortgage Reserve Account

style="text-align:center;"> Please note that this topic has not had any new posts for the last 580 days.

If you are trying to post a different story then you should start your own new thread. Posting on this thread is likely to mean that you won't get the help and advice that you need.

If you are trying to post information which is relevant to the story in this thread then please flag it up to the site team and they will allow you to post.

Thank you

Recommended Posts

Hi

In 2007 I separated from my husband due to domestic violence issue, child was 20 months old. I was working but just surviving (Finance Officer in the Local Council)

 

* I informed the Bank (our mortgage was with Barclays); Requested to change the mortgage temporally to "Interest only"

 

* The other party refused to agree to the change; The Bank suggested I start making transfers from Reserve account facility that we had, in order to avoid arrears

 

* The other party put a "freeze" on the account to stop me from using it; Bank could not proceed as they had to have both parties' agreement (joint mortgage account)

 

* Bank offered to me to pay as much as I can, and suggested the equivalent of the "interest only" amounts would be sufficient to show a good will

 

*A few months later Mortgage accounts were transferred to Woolwich and somewhere in the process, somehow the "freeze" was "lifted" or something, but my ex-husband managed to transfer the fund of the Reserve account to his personal account - £24,410!

 

* As soon as I realised it, I filed a complaint with the Bank, and requested an urgent investigation. Weeks of phone calls and visits to the local branch followed. 4 months later I received a letter, Barclays admitting their fault and confirming that the other party is solely liable for the debt (the withdrawn amount).

 

* I have on numerous occasions asked how they are chasing him up, is any investigation being conducted - never got a reply due to the Data Protection bla-bla.

 

* In 2014, being better off financially, I approached the Bank to discuss Re-Mortgage options, as I still am paying the Interest only amount. Mortgaged period finishes in 2023. I "have no options and until the Reserve account is repaid, I will be unable to do Re-Mortgage" - was Barclay's reply. Debt currently is £41k+, including the interest on the withdrawn amount.

 

* Every now and then I still receive payment demand letters, solicitors' letter and others. I have to call and explain the case for a 100th+ time!

 

I am up to a point to take the Bank to Court, as I do not see any other way out of the situation. There is no need to say how much stress it causes to me, and the adverse financial affect...

 

Does anyone know what legislation I should use to start on? Can I still quote BCOBS?

Has anyone else had a similar experience?

 

Thanks for replies in advance.

 

:-x

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Ms A and welcome to CAG

 

BCOBS may offer some help for you but MCOBS may also be of help.

 

However, I suggest you send the bank a SAR before doing anything more. This may disclose information that is helpful to you in your plight.

 

If you haven't already done this, send an SAR now.

 

:-)


We could do with some help from you

                                                                PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

                                            Have we helped you ...?  Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Please give something if you can. We all give our time free of charge but the site has bills to pay.

 

Thanks !:-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi slick132

 

Thank you for welcoming me and for your advice.

 

I will do the SAR, while I am looking for pro bono advice on how to put my case for the County Court. (A friend suggested to go to High Court and see the Judge of the Day, as my claim is not for the Small Claims Court). I have been to the local County Court but unless I have a Court Hearing on the day, I cannot pass the security even. There is no one to talk to or seek and advice from!

I was thinking of suggesting mediation first. Any experiences/advice to share?

 

Where is best to send my SAR? Address on bank statements (a PO Box), or Litigation Department, or directly to bank solicitors (which contact I have from notice to start legal proceedings)?

 

Many thanks again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi MsA,

 

First off, you need to keep an eye on your thread here and act promptly - you've already lost nearly 3 weeks since I posted above.

 

Secondly, I think you're jumping the gun with regard to court action. You have to follow the necessary process (Pre Action Protocol) to take a case to court.

 

You'll get free advice here on CAG. Otherwise, you'd need to pay a solicitor for advice beyond an initial consultation, and that's not going to be cheap.

 

Send your SAR to :-

 

Barclays Bank PLC

Privacy and Data Protection

Radbroke Hall

Knutsford

Cheshire

WA16 9EU


We could do with some help from you

                                                                PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

                                            Have we helped you ...?  Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Please give something if you can. We all give our time free of charge but the site has bills to pay.

 

Thanks !:-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you wait for another 17 days the following comes into force....

 

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/announcement.php?f=244&a=277


We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

 Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

If you want advice on your thread please PM me a link to your thread

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

“to go to High Court and see the Judge of the Day, as my claim is not for the small claims Court”.

 

The County Court can hear claims in the fast-track and multi-track, not just small-claims track.

Why do you think this would need to be issued in the High Court?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First of all I have to confirm what site team member:slick132 has said which is that you must engage with this thread. You made your first post on 18 April and although your story is very serious and attracted interest and you received a response very soon afterwards, you then went away and you haven't come back until today. The help you get here is free but it does need engagement. If you want people to be interested in helping you then you have to be interested in an engaging. There is a certain reciprocity.

 

The next thing is could you please tell us what date the bank allowed your ex to have access to the reserve fund. BCOBS could be a very good way to go but you should realise that it didn't come in force until October/November 2009. I think MCOBS came into force a bit earlier – but we will have to check it out.

 

Next, why is it you think you need to go to the High Court? You haven't explained. I'm not sure this needs to be anything more serious than a small claim. If you were able to establish that the bank had committed a statutory breach then they will start to take it seriously. If they fail to act then you would simply need to sue them again for a further statutory breach in that they would have failed to treat you fairly by dealing with the matter after the first judgment.

 

You don't need a solicitor for this and in fact I can guarantee you that you won't find a single solicitor who has heard of BCOBS and will know how to help you. That is to say that you may find a solicitor who has heard of BCOBS – but they will be a vere rare city solicitors who charge a huge amount of money. You certainly won't ever find a solicitor who has been involved in litigating a BCOBS action. If you go to a solicitor you will simply end up paying a lot of money while the solicitor builds up a file, gets into some protracted exchange with the bank, will probably advise you that there's not much you can do, will get counsel's opinion – at your expense – and maybe eventually issue legal action. It will cost you many thousands.

 

If you get a get involved with the thread then we can help you and you could probably even do the action yourself. However you will need to show some interest.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, please will you post up the banks letter of admission in PDF format.

 

Have you tried complaining to the FOS?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi

 

Thank you for the address and apologies that I look like wasting other people's time. I DO appreciate the help and concern.

For some reason, I am unable to log into the forum on an iOS device, and only yesterday I managed to sit at my PC.

 

To the point now - I had decided on Court Proceedings as I felt it as a last recourse of action. It has been more than ten (10!) years and hundreds of telephone calls, letters, visits to local branches etc. I gave up having any dealings with the bank when I went last time to Barclays Ruislip branch, asking to see the manager for explanation on the figures of the mortgage statement that I had received. A bank officer could not arrange an appointment for me but she tried to convince me that the "minus" balance on my main mortgage account is what I owe (I have not changed the Standing Order, and since the interest rates have changed, I have been paying more than the monthly payments required). She began mumbling when I asked, "Does the £15k giving positive figure on the Reserve account balance mean that the bank owes to me £15k then! (I would not have minded that but unfortunately the reality is different)". I went to the bank on that instance to ask about that £15k balance. On line the account shows £41+k overdrawn, actual amount withdrawn is £24,410, £15k cannot be the interest only. There must be some other charges probably, which I wanted to find out about. I had tried phoning when I received that statement but with initial automated options for vetting your enquiry and after almost 1 1/2 hours on the phone, I gave up and had decided on speaking to someone in person.

I hope the SAR will shed some light on the balances as well now!

 

As to solicitors fees and quality/quantity of work they would do - I am painfully aware of all that by experience!!!

For the reason, I am Googling my problem, I am talking to whoever (colleagues, friend, friends of friends...) I may think have had similar experience, and that's how I got to CAG, and that's how a friend suggested seeing a Judge of the Day (can be done only in High Court).

 

I am very grateful for the information you provided me with.

 

Regards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi

 

Thank you for the link but I am unable to open it. Could it be the type of account I have. I have only registered for posting. I have not checked whether there are different type of accounts for different level of access. Will have to explore.

 

I did hear something about it on BBC 24 News last week when the problem with Lloyds was in the spotlights, but was unable to follow it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've never heard of a "judge of the day" at the High Court or anywhere else. I've heard of "soup of the day" , "dish of the day" or "today's specials" - but not at the High Court. I'm afraid that I think that you have been misinformed.

 

There is a Duty Master – and I'm not even sure that that is his title – although he is a Master which is a sort of subset of the judiciary.

 

I'm afraid that you won't get anywhere trying to see the Master for an issue like this and if you are being advised to do this and if this is the quality of the advice you are receiving and I'm afraid that you are definitely listening to the wrong people and you end up wasting a lot of time.

 

You say that you have a letter from the bank admitting their error. It would be very helpful if you would post this up in PDF format – redacted for its identifiers, of course.

 

I need to understand the entire story – and it's not awfully clear. However, if the bank has somehow allowed unfettered access to your funds by your ex-husband who has then drained the account, and if this is in breach of the rules which govern that particular type of account, then clearly the bank have committed an error. It is extremely helpful that they have apparently admitted the error. However, don't then expect the bank to step forward and to accept responsibility for it – if it means refunding you.

 

In order to take the bank on you need either to begin a complaint to the FOS – and I have asked you if you have done this but you haven't responded, or you need to bring a legal action against them.

 

If you bring a complaint to the FOS, then you may get some help but it isn't sure. The good thing is that it's completely free to do it although you can be certain that it won't all happen very quickly and that the bank will spin it out.

 

If you brought an action in the County Court then it could be pretty quick and it will make the bank sit up and take notice. The action which suggests itself is the action under BCOBS in respect of their statutory breach of their obligations to treat you fairly. There is no need to sue for the entire amount. However, we need to know that you are unfairly treated after November 2009 stitches when BCOBS came in force. I have asked you about this as well and also you haven't replied to that either.

 

I'm afraid it is very difficult to help you if you won't engage with the thread and also if you won't address the questions which have been asked.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi BazzaS

 

Thank you for your post.

A friend (who had done it in the past for a different type of proceedings though) suggested I go to see a Judge of the Day as my only option to be heard.

And since I did not know what else to do...

 

I intend to follow CAG advice now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is the procedure for getting to see a “Judge of the Day”, in the High Court?

I’d imagine they would be responsive to applications like emergency wardship orders and habeus corpus (where urgent action is needed to terminate an unlawful deprivation of liberty), but I can’t see how one can just ‘swan in’ for a non-urgent case, otherwise no-one would issue a claim through normal channels, they’d all just turn up on the day!!

It also prevents the case papers being submitted / reviewed in advance, so it really is just for emergencies!.

I can’t see how something that has festered on for 10+ years can suddenly be an emergency unless a key witness is expected to die imminently!

 

That said, if you have been aware of the issue for 10 years, some (or all!) of the financial aspects may be statute barred, as litigation on a claim based in simple contract law cannot be enforced once 6 years has passed from being aware (or ‘constructive awareness’) of the claim.

 

If this were a mortgage company chasing a shortfall, they get 12 years, not six, by statute (even though the CML guideline is to apply a voluntary limit of 6 years in most circumstances). However, the other way around (so, you haven’t lent them money secured by a charge!), you get 6 years .....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi BankFodder,

 

Re: post 7 of yesterday 19:16

 

I note the criticism and apologise. I was unable to log into the forum for some time.

 

All started in 2007.

Separation 27 January;

I informed Barclays bank, they flagged the Mortgage accounts with "marital dispute" (or at least they were saying so);

End of March/beginning of April 2007 - I agreed with the bank (their suggestion) to transfer funds from Reserve account to Main Mortgage account to avoid mortgage arrears.

18/04/2007 - Woolwich (mortgage originally taken from Barclays around July 2003) writes to me that my-ex (joint account) had requested the account to be "frozen".

22/11/2007 - somehow my-ex (the same one that froze the account!) manages to transfer £24,410 from same "frozen" account to one of his personal accounts

14/02/2008 - after complaints, phone calls, chasing up and more chasing up I receive a letter from Barclays stating "In regards to any future pursuance of the debt, the Bank has taken the view that Mr X will solely be liable for the additional monies of £24,140 and the ensuing interest".

I was never been given details of how they have pursued him for the debt. The debt does not seem to get repaid. I receive letters with outstanding balances. The bank took us to court for re-possession but only I went to defend (he even did not turn up). I cannot think of re-mortgaging until the Reserve account is repaid.

I can supply with PDFs but I have to cover the personal details, don't I? I have to work out how to do that first (:oops:)

 

I thought of BCOBS because I read online about it. I am sinking and I am grabbing any straw I see on my way!

 

I did not consider Small Claims claim because the amount is more than £5,000.

I have requested a few time Barclays Code of Conduct, to study duly and see what I can use for a suit. Can you guess whether I have received a copy?

 

About solicitors... You better not hear what I really think!

 

And, no matter how much I despise it, I have to go back and work on it. (I have organised to work part-time for a few months in order to spend time on sorting out this mess!)

 

I appreciate the help!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you. That is more helpful.

 

However, you haven't answered the question about whether you have been to the FOS.

 

In an earlier post you said that Barclays had admitted the error. In this post you seem to be talking about a completely different letter dated 2008 in which they talk about your exes liability for the money but nothing else. Is there a letter admitting there?

 

I see that the principal error appears to have occurred in 2007. Unfortunately this is two years before BCOBS and so you could not sue under that regulation.

 

Before BCOBS there was simply the Banking Code of Practice which was frankly a useless scheme which was interpreted by the banks in any way they wanted. Forget it.

 

We will have to find out whether we could apply MCOBS to this – and of course it will partly depend on the date of coming into force of those regulations. It's all a bit of a cluttered mess. If you end up having to rely on contract then there are the difficulties which user BazzaS - referred to above and that is of the problem of the amount of time has passed.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Quick one Re: FOS

 

I have not been to FOS as I feared it would be a waste of time. I cannot imagine how they can be unbiased if they are financially supported by the financial institutions! Even if I had to ignore that, no personal offense to anyone, considering the targets they have to meet, what I have read about the way they have to deal with most cases, the expertise available and so on, I decided against it. But to go through the Court Route.

 

I will look at the last few replies properly tonight as I have to go now. BTW, is that the right way to reply to the posts on my treat? Don't I clutter the forum? Please let me know if I should post using a different option. I am not versed forums user.

 

I have not forgotten the banks letter.

 

I realised I will not be able to PM until I do 30 posts, or was it 50?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your posts are fine.

 

Complaining to the FOS can be useful – but you shouldn't set your hopes too high – but it doesn't prejudice you in anyway and it might draw out some interesting information.

 

Why do you think you need to send a private message?

 

I should say that I'm still not entirely clear as to what has happened here and what the error is. To tell you the truth I don't really understand what this mortgage reserve account is.

 

It seems to me that MCOBS may be applicable to your case. BCOBS is certainly not because it only came in force in 2009.

 

 

I understand that you had a mortgage with the Woolwich taken out in about 2003. This mortgage eventually became a Barclays mortgage.

It was a joint mortgage.

In 2007 you separated from her husband

about the same time, your husband contacted the bank and instruct them to freeze the mortgage. I don't know what this means. Also, did he have the authority to instruct the bank to take action against a joint mortgage on his own?

What is the "reserve account". How come it had all this money on it?

Have you never taken any action against your ex for the recovery of the money or your share in it?

Have you subsequently become divorced and has there been any apportionment of the property?

If the missing money from the reserve account is his responsibility – as the bank has claimed, then why is it that it still has any effect on the property?

 

Maybe you have explained the sales but I'm afraid that I haven't understood it.

 

 

From what I gather so far, your main areas of complaint are that the bank are allowed money to be taken out of some "reserve" account without any authority from you

that somehow this is preventing you from remortgaging – even though the bank seem to be saying that this is an error and it has nothing to do with you.

 

As you can see, I'm pretty confused about it.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi

Sorry for the delay. Here are the main letters in regards with my problem with Barclays.

 

 

MsAngry Barclays.pdf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, I'm starting to understand a little more.

 

You had a mortgage with your husband and you separated.

 

Attached to the mortgage was something called "a mortgage reserve account". I now understand that this was simply a borrowing facility. It basically provided you with an opportunity to borrow money on an "as needs" basis and each time you borrowed, the extra debt would automatically be secured against the property. So for instance, if the bank thought that there might be as much is £20,000 equity in the property, it gave you an overdraft facility of £20,000 and you could draw on it as you wished, basically using it as a current account.

Is this correct?

 

Your husband immediately put a freeze on the mortgage. I'm still not quite sure what this is. However it was meant to prevent you getting your hands on a money – and presumably intended to prevent you drawing on the mortgage reserve account.

Is this correct?

 

Although there was a freeze on this account, which should have prevented either of you from drawing equity away from the overdraft, somehow or other your husband managed to access the frozen account and take £24,000 from it for himself.

 

Suddenly you found that the mortgage had increased by £24,000 and you had had no benefit and also you had not authorised this and it was the banks error.

 

The bank amazingly has admitted this error.

 

Earlier on in this thread you have said that the bank admitted the error and have said in their letter that in their view – that your husband "will be solely liable for the additional monies of £24,140 and the ensuing interest". However, I believe that you have taken this to mean that it is only your husband who is liable and not you.

 

I'm afraid that I think you are wrong. I think you have missed the ambiguity in the letter. If you read the whole sentence, it says

 

ln regards to any future pursuance of the debt, the Bank has taken the view that Mr xxx will solely be liable for the additlonal manies of £24,140.00 and the ensuing interest

 

I think that the bank here is taking an opportunity to disclaim any liability for the missing money in the event that you try to sue them. I think that they are saying that if you want to get your money back, it has nothing to do with them and you will have to proceed directly against your husband.

 

However, it is not awfully relevant because as they say, you are certainly still jointly liable for the mortgage. However, if I am right, you can see that even at this very early stage and even though the bank admitted the error, they are already defending against the possibility of being held liable for the missing money. In my view, they are liable. However, it may be that any cause of action against them is time-expired.

 

I notice that the end of the 2008 letter, they tell you that you have the right to go to the ombudsman. Effectively this is their final response. Have you been to the ombudsman? If not, why not?

 

By the way, I see at some point they offered you £300 worth of bonbons in order to make up for their mistake. Did you accept this?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think their letter also means they can’t ( / won’t) pursue the OP for the £24,140 and interest, but can (& will!) for the rest of the mortgage that continues to be jointly and severally owed.

 

OP : is this what Barclays are trying to do, and if so, why do you think it is wrong?

What are they still doing (or not doing!) that you think is wrong, and what outcome(s) are you looking for?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think their letter also means they can’t ( / won’t) pursue the OP for the £24,140 and interest, but can (& will!) for the rest of the mortgage that continues to be jointly and severally owed.

 

OP : is this what Barclays are trying to do, and if so, why do you think it is wrong?

What are they still doing (or not doing!) that you think is wrong, and what outcome(s) are you looking for?

 

Hmmm - are you saying that it means that they are prepared to forego £24,140 plus interest on the mortgage but they want the rest?

I hadn't seen it that way but I suppose it is just possible that it is a valid interpretation. However, I take it that the £24,000 drawdown from the equity now forms part of the mortgage and they want it all back. I read it as them saying that although the husband had taken the money out – in breach of the terms of the restriction, now that he was in possession of the money they weren't proposing to try get it back from him.

 

Your view – if I understand correctly – seems to be a charitable view of Barclays and is not the same as mine


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it means Barclays are differentiating between:

a) £24,140 and interest that they are only going after the (ex?) husband for, and

b) Anything else (mortgage and interest) that the OP and (ex?)husband are jointly and severally liable for.

 

This is the way those letters read to me, and would enable Barclays to continue to try to recover as much as they can from the OP without getting into a defence that the £24,140 and interest was never due from the OP.

 

Equally, in doing so, they’d remove the OP’s ability to make any claim on that £24,140 : that would be a matter exclusively between Barclays and the ex-husband

 

That would be an approach likely to succeed in any “equitable” court application. The OP never got the benefit of the £24,140, but that money was never originally hers : it was a loan. It shouldn’t have been able to be drawn on - that was the bank’s error.

 

The OP did have the benefit of the main mortgage, and any withdrawals from the Reserve account before it was frozen, so why would a Court find she wasn’t liable for those sums if the account had “joint and several liability”?

 

We need to know if this fits with the OP’s situation, and what outcome(s) she is looking for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm just getting more and more confused.

 

I'm wondering if these questions help to make it clearer:

has the £24,000 been added to the mortgage balance?

As Barclays pursuing the OP for the entire mortgage balance? Or are they absorbing a loss of £24,000 unless they can recover it from the husband?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm just getting more and more confused.

 

I'm wondering if these questions help to make it clearer:

has the £24,000 been added to the mortgage balance?

As Barclays pursuing the OP for the entire mortgage balance? Or are they absorbing a loss of £24,000 unless they can recover it from the husband?

 

Precisely.

 

(Except the husband is now ‘ex’, from the first post) . Was there a finalised financial settlement alongside any decree absolute.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Many thanks for your replies, BankFodder and BzzaS

 

 

To clarify if still in any doubt, "Mortgage Reserve Account" as BankFodder explains, was additional borrowing facility, linked to the mortgage. The original Mortgage offer was more that we needed for the purchase of the property, and we were offered that facility. Of course, we accepted it, as it was a ready waiting loan at mortgage interest lavel rates.

 

 

Another point to clarify - I am not oposing in any way my liability to the main mortgage. But I DO to those £24,410 and intailed interest. The Bank did not gave them to me, despite the difficult situation I was in, not by choice! The separation was as a result of domestic violence! Bank "honered" Mr's instructions to freeze the account (the additional borrowing facility, not to be used for the sole purpose of avoiding mortgage arreas while divorce proceedings are in process). Then, the Bank "allowed" him, without my consent!!!, to withdraw the whole fund for his personal use.

 

 

I did not go to the Ombudsman, as I was assured by anyone who saw the letter dated February 2008, that I will not be persued for that debt. At that time I was living on 2-3 hours sleep (if I managed to "steel" 4 hours, that was a luxury!) I did not have time for the Ombudsman! I had to deal with Contact Hearings, CAFCAS, Magistrate Court, International Family law, to look after a 2-3 year old child on my own, to go to work...

 

 

I did take the £300 bonbons. That was Christmas for me and my son! We were living on £7-£8 per week for food, as all I earned went for bills

 

 

I do apologise but I have to take a break I am sorry I will be back later

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    No registered users viewing this page.


  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...