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vet refferal problem

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this is the story of my bulldog so far..

 

my 12 week old bulldog pup went in for entropian eyelash surgery after a refferal from my own vet as we wanted someone he trusted to undertake this operation for us...

 

he came out 5 hours later and went through the most agonising death over the following 48 hours i have ever seen a poor animal suffer.,,,

 

rushed back into my own vet who tried to save him twice over the last 12 hours of his life but he was struggling to breath and tyson fought so hard to stay with us.

.im still upset writing this four weeks later.

 

.i was refferred to the eye vets by my own vet to see an eye specialist whom he recommended highly,

but the whole lot was done by a vet at the park my own vet had never ever heard of

 

so very disappointed as we were referred here by someone we trusted and respected highly.........

 

£1347 bill from the park later and i lost my beautiful dog tyson who was so energetic and full of life .. he was such a powerful dog

 

the morning of his operation he pulled me up a steep hill he was so so strong and just loved life.

R.I.P TYSON 18 march 2018

 

i paid my vet to refer me to an eye specialist as he had recommended that my bulldog have entropian eyelash surgery to correct in-growing eyelashes.

 

.we discussed the matter on whom he would recommend to undertake the operation as we wanted the best for our dog and a speedy recovery..

 

we agreed that he should go to a particular vet at a particular surgery and he recommended him fully

 

he took us to his receptionist and instructed her to make an appointment with this particular specialist , which was arranged for 48 hrs later and the receptionist said she would forward an email of his eye condition straight through to them so they could see what diagnosis had been made..

 

we took our wonderful dog tyson in for his eye op friday morning and we went in to see a vet who we presumed was part of the vets team who we were refferred to,

 

as we had never been in this vets before.

..he said the dog needed this entropian surgery under both eyes and they make too small cuts under the eyelids and take a small melon shape out and sewed up again and he will be right as rain in about two weeks.

 

he said the cost will be around 1350 pounds and they can do it now and get it over with if we agree and we can pick our tyson up this afternoon..

 

we did.

.fatal...

.we picked him up and his was happy to see us but a bit drowsy and sounded very hoarse which we were told was due to the anisthetic pipe and would clear..

 

we paid the bill in full on credit card and took him home to rest...

he didnt seem to improve and started coughing a lot and kept holding his head up as though his throat was blocked and breathing hard.

 

.i called our own emergency vets at 8pm and they said keep an eye on him, if he gets worse call back.

 

.i put him in the car at 12 pm and rushed down to our vets and telephoned on the way to make sure the vet got there.

 

.it was snowing bad that night

we got to the vets and had to wait as he was stuck in snow

in the meantime we tried to give him oxygen with the veterinary nurse.

 

.the vet arrived and as it was weekend he took over from us and told us to go home and get some rest while they xray him and treat him..

 

he said he had fluid on his lungs and they kept him in an oxygen tent and gave him medication to expel water

 

they said his breathing was not good and didnt know why..

 

the next day they had to recusitate him as he worsened and they inserted a tube down his airway to open up his windpipe. .he pulled through

 

when they removed the pipe the vet said a 5cm piece of scar tissue was stuck to the outside of the the tube and when that came out he breathed a lot better, a vast improvement so we thought he was going to pull through..

 

..sadly at 9 pm that evening he went into cardiac and they could not revive him..

 

as you can imagine we were extremely upset and still looking for answers

they were proving very difficult to comeby as no one would say anything other than apologise for his death.

 

we then asked for reports the following day from the emergency vet so we could at least begin to see what had happened...this has not yet been forthcoming despite the practice owner promising them to us.

 

now my first question is this...

.as i was refferred by my vet to the specialist,

do i have a case of malpractice against either of them for not undertaking the operation with the specialist we had discussed , if so which vet has alleged malpractice?

i have checked on the rcvs website and it appears that this could be malpractice.

 

i must point out here that the vet who did this operation was not the vet we had discussed in the referral

 

..it was undertaken by a vet whom our vet did not even know of or heard of and was not the vet we had dsicussed being refferred too, hence why i feel it may allegedly be malpractice...

 

please forgive me as it is difficult to explain all this as it is still very emotional and i really do appreciate any help that is forth coming..

 

all help appreciated with thanks to you all

2018-03-16 23.04.01.jpg

Edited by dx100uk
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Hi. I'm sorry to hear about your problem.

 

Pets and Vets isn't a very busy forum, but I expect the regulars will be along later with advice for you.

 

HB


Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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thanks honey bee..iv been looking at some pieces on eferral by the rvcs..

 

Supporting Guidance

1. Referrals and second opinions

Links to "supporting guidance" itself - not a subpart thereof

 

Introduction

1.1 Veterinary surgeons should facilitate a client’s request for a referral or second opinion.

 

1.2 A referral may be for a diagnosis, procedure and/or possible treatment, after which the case

is returned to the referring veterinary surgeon, whereas a second opinion is only for the purpose

of seeking the views of another veterinary surgeon. Neither a second-opinion veterinary surgeon

nor a referral practice should ever seek to take over the case, unless the client chooses to

change practices.

 

When to refer

1.3 Veterinary surgeons should recognise when a case or a treatment option is outside their

area of competence and be prepared to refer it to a colleague, organisation or institution, whom

they are satisfied is competent to carry out the investigations or treatment involved.

 

1.4 The veterinary surgeon should make a referral appropriate to the case. When considering

what is appropriate the veterinary surgeon should consider all relevant factors. These might

include the ability and experience of the referral veterinary surgeon, the location of the service,

the urgency of treatment and the circumstances of the owner, including the availability and any

limitations of insurance. Veterinary surgeons should be prepared to justify their referral decisions

and should record the reasons for their decisions.

 

1.5 In cases where the client does not accept the veterinary surgeon’s advice regarding

referral and would instead prefer referral to a colleague, organisation or institution of which the

referring veterinary surgeon has insufficient knowledge to determine appropriateness, they may

need to advise their client accordingly. In some such cases, the veterinary surgeon may

consider that they cannot be party to such a referral relationship.

 

1.6 The referring veterinary surgeon has a responsibility to ensure that the client is made aware

of the level of expertise of appropriate and reasonably available referral veterinary surgeons, for

example, whether they are veterinary specialists or advanced practitioners. They must not

describe a referral veterinary surgeon as a specialist, or as an advanced practitioner, unless

they are on the respective list.

 

1.7 Both the referring veterinary surgeon and the referral veterinary surgeon have a

responsibility to ensure that the client has an understanding of the likely cost arising from the

referral.

 

the vet who did the operation has told me to chase my vets about the referral,

not that interested ,

they also refused to give me the veterinary nurses number or the surgeons number as they said the vet was responsible for the nurse,

which im not in total agreement with as they all have to be registered.

 

the vet who did the operation told me that the vet nurse put the tube down his neck and he fitted the ballon around his neck to hold it in place..

as my vet discussed referral to a vet who did not do the operation ,

what was the point of the referral as he did not know the vet or even heard of the vet who carried out the op...

 

surely the idea of a referral is to send me to a vet ho has the ability to undertake an operation and is experienced in doing so, plus the reffering vet should be aware of his skills and capabilities?

 

this clearly wasnt the case in this instance as my vet had never ever heard his name.

 

does that make my referral have any validity, i mean i could of just wombled into any vets and got the same result with out paying a fee?

 

just to note there was no insurance in place on tyson and i had to pay for the op...due to being young and it just happened over night i had to take him to the vet where he was diagnosed ..after that obviously he cannot be insured.

 

my own vet had treated him once by plucking the lashes but told me they could regrow...but to be honest i feel that this made no difference to him but cost me another few hundred quid on top.

 

of course im upset at loosing him but i accept that things still have to be done correctly and i dont feel my wishes have been carried out at all and i cannot accept the way tyson suffered after the op...there are too many what ifs in this case and i fel i owe him an answer and also i want to ensure that no other poor animal has to go through this.


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looks like no one can help me out here

..i am unsure if this is unclear what has happened or not

 

i wish to attempt to to file a negligence claim against this vets ..as i have received some responses from the vetrinaries involved ,

i feel i have a case on which to act but really i am unsure of the procedure..

 

..the original vets billed me 1347 pounds for the operation..the referral was around 34 pounds, my vets have just billed me just under 800 pounds for emergency treatment of my my dog after the operation at the other vets before he died...i have then also lost the market value of my dog which was around 2000 pounds.

 

as the vet i was refferred to by my vet for the operation was known to my vet on a professional level and vouched for his work and experience , the fact that this vet did not undertake the operation, i see as possibly negligent.

 

i paid for a refferal to a vet whom did not do the operation, as the refferral was based on my vets knowledge of the other vets capabilities and experience..is that not grounds for possible malpractice i wonder? .

 

.any help here would be good

Edited by dx100uk
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Hi

 

Sorry you haven't had many responses.

 

Have you went through the initial veterinary Practices Complaints Procedure?

 

When you were referred to this other Practice for the entropian eyelash surgery did you sign any paperwork for them to carry out the procedure?

 

Sorry to ask this but have you been informed of the cause of your pet Tyson (RIP) passing by the vets?

 

Couple of links:

 

Citizens Advice - Complain about a vet: https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/somethings-gone-wrong-with-a-purchase/complaining-about-misconduct-or-negligence-vets/

 

RCVS: https://www.rcvs.org.uk/concerns/

Edited by stu007

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to me it looks like this is malpractice by the Aneathnatist when inserting the pipe

I notice you paid be credit card

 

go pull their string

they are equally responsible under section 75 of the CCA


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This is heartbreaking and you must be in pieces but you have to stay very calm about how you go about a claim - just as you would with anything.

 

If this were me the first thing I'd do is SAR both vets. It will take time to get the results but it is the best way of ensuring you get everything. Your dog was a brachycephalic breed and would have required extra care for any anaesthetic - both pre and post op. High risk hardly begins to describe it. Records should show exactly what tests were undertaken.

 

Personally I'm astounded that any vet would carry out surgery on a dog referred from elsewhere the moment they walked in the door. I've never experienced any specialist doing such a thing for a non emergency case and with a breed like this it's just about unthinkable.

 

Sadly, with such flat faced breeds you are always going to face problems and increased risks. There's a chance your dog wouldn't have made it even with all the right procedures in place. That doesn't mean you shouldn't investigate this fully.

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hi everyone and thanks for the responses..i had given up hope of getting anywhere with this and am so glad you have supported me as it has given me the strength to go forward again as i had to put a stop on things for a while as it was getting to me emotionally.

 

i have had quite a bit of paperwork through from my own vets and a response letter from the reffering vet saying that

the referral that was made to them to see the recommended eye specialist , but was passed to another less senior eye specialist , whom we or our vets had never heard of, was a clerical error and they have made changes to their system to ensure that it does not happen again in the future, but assured me the vet who did the op was competent...

 

as far as i can see, this clerical error as they see it ,is malpractice....

 

my referral was for a named vet and i didnt get to see that vet.......i can share their response with anyone who can give me some further guidance on how to proceed further..thanks to all and look forward to some help from where ever to enable me to move forward with this.


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thanks for the response hightail, yes i agree with all these breeds there is a a risk for any operation..whether he would have recovered under different circumstances neither you or i are able to tell.

 

all i can say is that with a veterinary with many more years of specialist practise under his belt i feel the odds would have improved greatly, hence our request to our vets to refer us to someone with this experience and someone whom our vets know of and have placed their trust in him also having referred to him beforehand and knowledge of his experience and talents...

 

we must also remember our vets had previously anethetised this dog with no problems hence our vets surprise at our dogs demise and the recording of the scar tissue removed from his osophagus during the attempt to revive him prior to his death which has all been recorded...

 

we must also take on board that we had paid our vets to refer us to this particular specialist after lots of discussion on whom would be best suited to do this operation and do it successfully knowing he was a bulldog and having the required knowledge for operating on these type of dogs.

 

There are many choices of vets out there who would perform this minor operation ,costs varied from several hundred pounds to the most expensive which we chose as we went the extra mile to be pointed to the one most suited to do the job through experience , not cost to undertake this operation,

 

The referral failed miserably and our dog was operated on by a team whom we had not requested to do the operation and we now feel that in our opinion they were not experienced enough on bulldogs to meet our guidelines, plus we feel very mislead by this company for not carrying the referral out to our vets and our instructions.

 

we need to understand we had never been to this vets before and were only there upon our vets advice and did not have a clue what the reffered surgeon looked like or

who his team were, little did we know that the vet we were speaking to was not whom we were reffered to , but someone we believed was part of his preop team.

 

the cost was the same coming out at 1357 pounds for the operation, but i then had the bill from my vets for emergency care after the operation which is just under 800 pounds plus obviously the dogs value which was 2000 pounds...you cannot put a price on the emotional harm both myself my wife and my son and daughter went through on top of this.


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hi stu007, thanks for your response..when we went to see the reffered vets yes we did sign papers to allow them to do the operation, i am sure this is quite normal and is standard proceedure before any operation to ensure that you will pay their bill..

 

i have had all the clinical notes back from my vets who took jhim in after the operation for emergency care and it mentions that scar tissue was removed from his osophagus and the size of it and that he appeared to breath much much better after its removal and seamed to start to make a recovery after his first resusscitation, but went into respiratory arrest later on as he had fluid on his lungs etc and died under the emergency nurse care with the vet trying to instruct her how to revive him on the telephone...not the ideal situation at all.

 

i feel that because the referral vet did not undertake the operation as both we and our vets had requested, we were seriously mislead by the referring vets whom undertook this operation not in line with what our refferal had asked for, and this i belive is malpractice.

this is also something we have received a response to in writing and an admission to clerical error on the reffering vets part..

 

now if i was to claim in the small claims that malpractice happened on this point, should i claim for the cost of the operation, cost of the dog, my vets fees or personal hurt due to the resulting death of my dog.

 

or do i claim for the cost of the operation due to malpractice and if i win that try again for the other parts or would this not be allowed


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from cab malpractice

 

Misconduct

 

Professional misconduct includes behaviour such as dishonesty, taking advantage of your age or inexperience, or acting against your instructions.

All vets must adhere to the code of professional conduct laid down by the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons.

If you believe your vet has been guilty of professional misconduct, report the matter immediately to the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons who will investigate.


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from cab negligence...

 

If the vet has been negligent

 

Negligence must result in harm, loss, injury or damage of some sort. For example, a vet may fail to prescribe the appropriate course of treatment and, as a result, the animal suffers permanent injury or dies.

If you think your vet has been negligent and you want to complain, you will need to decide what outcome you want. For example, you may want:

 

  • a formal apology
  • a refund
  • free corrective treatment
  • compensation.

Claiming compensation

 

If your pet suffers pain, injury, inconvenience or you have extra costs because of negligence, you are entitled to compensation.

Before you claim compensation, try and negotiate with your vet first. You may want to get advice about doing this.

If this doesn't work, you may want to take legal action. You should get expert legal advice early on.

It can be very difficult to prove negligence. Often, it comes down to the personal, professional judgement of your vet about what was the most appropriate treatment in your pet’s case. You may need to get a second opinion. However, another vet might be reluctant to get involved in a complaint against another member of their profession. If they do agree to give a second opinion, they will probably charge for this.

Legal action for negligence must be started within three years of the negligence occurring, or of you becoming aware of it.


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i feel that malpractice is the easiet way forward as my vet admits to never ever having heard of the vet who did the operation and was not the vet he reffered us too.

seems clear cut but unsure of what to claim as listed above, do i go for cost of the operation, cost of the dog, cost of my vets emergency treatemnt or personal hurt?


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everything you can think of....


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You must get everything from both vets before you even think of starting any claim. Have you put in SARs?

The whole thing sounds very strange to me. I have never heard of a specialist charging so little for such surgery, nor do they have slots for surgery on a walk in basis. My vet won't even give my dog light sedation unless she can be sure he's eaten nothing for over 12 hours - not even a training treat on a walk. This wasn't an emergency so there was no rush. Are you absolutely sure you were being referred to a specialist?

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hi hightail...in response to your question, we spent around two weeks discussing this with our vets and whom was the safest to go within regards to specialised eye care..apparntly the machine used in eye surgery is an absurd price and very few vets only specialists have them and the training needed to use them..so yes he was a specialist eye surgeon, but unfortunately as said he did not do the operation, hence my problems,,

 

 

i agree with all you say about not being an emergency but please remember he was twelve weeks old and already had one op and we were appliying a moisturiser to his eyes three times a day to keep them protetcted from scarring the cornea and the consultant who looked at him said the sooner the better its done. he didnt like having the moisturiser in so we were more for making him comfortable..on reflection this was a mistake as we should never have had it done on a weekend and would not recommend any dog has surgery on a weeken as the vet cover is minimal and very basic and when problems arise there is no one there of high qualification to assist only via telephone.

i will put in sars tomorrow for all paperwork as i have only had papers from my own veterinary..


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hi dx..thankyou for your response...is there not a claim limit for the small claims as if i add up the cost of surgery , the value of the dog plus my own vets emergency fees this would exceed 4000 pounds..unsure on my limits and if he would be responsible for my emergency vets fees? all help really is appreciated and how do i go about the claim as its all new to me


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one last thing how do i word the sar for the vets to ensure i get all the dogs results etc


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one last thing how do i word the SARicon for the vets to ensure i get all the dogs results etc

The new rules have changed things a bit and there should be a guide somewhere on this forum. I'm not the right person to find it for you quickly but I'll have a look and maybe someone who knows their way round will step in while I struggle.

 

I'm even more appalled now you mention this was done on a weekend. No vet I know would undertake a non-emergency procedure on such a young pup (especially of this breed) at a weekend. The condition was distressing but far from life threatening. That it was a second anaesthetic in such a short time on such a young animal makes it even more risky.

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Thank you stu007.

jamesbond, it's very important you get this information. I'm in the process of getting worthwhile advice from those who know about the condition and need to know exactly what your vet referred for and what procedure was carried out.

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thanks to you both for the response..i have done the sars ans will get these out tomorrow...hopefully i have worded them ok..

i will keep you posted on my responses and we can go from there..thanyou everyone for the support and lets go forward on this..


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Thank you stu007.

jamesbond, it's very important you get this information. I'm in the process of getting worthwhile advice from those who know about the condition and need to know exactly what your vet referred for and what procedure was carried out.

thankyou hightail for helping me it really is appreciated..

 

 

the invoice states entropian h-c/wedge resection bilateral..


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Hi jamesbond

 

I think you also need to have a good read of the Consumer Rights Act as they provided you with a service as the more knowledge you have to enforce your rights.

 

This is CAGs link on Consumer Rights Act: https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?440-The-Consumer-Rights-Act-2015

(Have a wee look at this when you have the time)

 

Have a look at the Services link: https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?442-Services-ss.48-57

 

Specifically: https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?448268-49-Service-to-be-performed-with-reasonable-care-and-skill


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Have you made contact with RCVS about this?


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