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Please could someone give me some advice. I have been doing petty cash for my company for about 5 years, the duties come with a card which does have my name and the company name on and the statements do come to my private address.

 

In October last year my then Team Leader (my line manager) told me that he was taking me off petty cash duties and another colleague was going to do it and to give him the card. I did query the fact that the card has my name on it and the Team Leader said he was getting it changed over to the colleagues.

 

The Team Leader left the company in January this year and apparently phoned the new one taking over that the petty cash may be £200 adrift. Its been checked now and is actually £480 out and I have found further proof that the TL was putting receipts through in clients' names and the client have not been given the money by him. Money has been taken out of an atm in his hometown on Friday nights.

 

There has been an investigation and now, yesterday, I was phoned to say I have a disciplinary on Weds (21st) because I gave the card to someone else. There is no question of my honesty in all this but I feel it is unfair as I was following instructions from a line manager. I have not received a letter about the disciplinary yet.

 

In the years I have been doing the petty cash I have let colleagues have the card when I have been on annual leave or clients would not be paid their bus or train fare and they are on benefits. There hasn't been a problem until obviously a dishonest person has come along and now he has left for another job.

 

Thanks for any help.

Edited by honeybee13
Paras

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Can you tell me if you applied for the card via an employer portal?

 

For example, although my AMEX is Corporate, It is in my name, my address and I am responsible for it.

I can spend what I like but I got to pay it off.

I then claim back legitimate expense from my Company.

 

Letting other people use my card is against the terms...

Edited by dx100uk
quote

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Hi, the card is a cash card to draw out as much cash is required to cover the petty cash that week. I was sent the forms for it by the company.

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Hi, the card is a cash card to draw out as much cash is required to cover the petty cash that week. I was sent the forms for it by the company.

 

 

first of all, , you need to get hold of a copy of what you signed


Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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Maybe different, but my work cash card t&c say that it is only for use by me, never to give to anyone and never disclose the pin number.

 

When I've been on leave I've been asked to withdraw enough funds for the period and pass it to the manager.

This was documented in writing.

 

With money you need to be very careful because that's one thing that makes employer find a scapegoat.

 

My advice is to go to the disciplinary and suggest you make a complaint to the police.

 

Your hr office will have full details of the thief, so they can catch him if they can be bothered.

 

In the eye of the employer you haven't stolen the money but you've given the card to someone else and this might be against the rules.

 

They're quick at throwing the book at you when it suits them and very slow at implementing the correct procedure when some innocent party can be blamed.

 

If they try to discipline you, go to the police even if they don't want you to.

 

Get a reference number and pass it to them.

 

Then if you harass the police enough, they might do something and speak to the thief.

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Thanks for that last advice.

I didn't know I could go to the Police.

I will definitely consider it.

There is plenty of proof against the TL.

 

I think that I have years ago signed a t and c's which probably does state to not give the card away but no procedures were put into place to pay clients and I did bring that up that the card was in my name at this time and he said he would deal with it.

 

I can see now that he wanted a more pliable person as I was strict about doling money out (we cover about 6 outreach offices so money had to be given to the 2 other Advisers) whoever had the card.

 

Another point was that I had moved to another position where no petty cash was involved.

Edited by dx100uk
spacing

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Can I just add one other point on this please, my employers are going straight into a disciplinary. At no time has this matter of the card been brought up to me with any complaint surely some communication before this should have happened.

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no, as long as they follow the correct procedure and have indicated wwhat it is you are supposed to ahve done wrong and given you notice of the meeting and allow you to have someone present to either represent you as as an accomplice to the meeting.

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Have I understood this correctly, your line manager instructed you to return the cash card to him and you did so and he then subsequently committed fraud with it and left the company?

 

In which case I would be defending the charge of 'giving the card to someone else' on the grounds that interpreted literally once the card was issued an employee the company could never get it back! The prohibition surely cannot apply when an authorised person in the company instructs you to return the card? And you are entitled to assume your line manager is authorised to do that. Do read carefully the form you referred to earlier and see what that says about returning the card though.

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I meant to add, I'm not sure the police will allow you to report this as a crime. The crime is fraud/theft of money from your employer, so they are the victim, not you. Generally the police will only accept crime reports for theft from the victim, from your employer.

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Have I understood this correctly, your line manager instructed you to return the cash card to him and you did so and he then subsequently committed fraud with it and left the company?

 

In which case I would be defending the charge of 'giving the card to someone else' on the grounds that interpreted literally once the card was issued an employee the company could never get it back! The prohibition surely cannot apply when an authorised person in the company instructs you to return the card? And you are entitled to assume your line manager is authorised to do that. Do read carefully the form you referred to earlier and see what that says about returning the card though.

 

The OP absolutely has to give the card back to the business if the business asks for it.

However, they shouldn’t give the PIN (to protect them self from a scenario just like what has happened!).

 

That number is used for “Personal Identification” : if the business wanted to use the card they either get another card issued, or a new PIN re-issued to the new authorised user of the Card.

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Not so, otherwise no-one could ever report a murder! there are however, offences of failing to report a crime or failing to assist an officer in the execution of his duty. Rarely used but sometimes quopted at people to get them to say what they know after they have failed to report a crime.

In the OP case raising it via employer is a sensible first step and let them decide. If it looks like they want a scapegoat (them) then do report it to the police and they may well have words with the employer regarding ther duites to report crime if it is an old fashioned copper.

 

I meant to add, I'm not sure the police will allow you to report this as a crime. The crime is fraud/theft of money from your employer, so they are the victim, not you. Generally the police will only accept crime reports for theft from the victim, from your employer.

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The company sent a letter via e-mail today saying the meeting was an investigatory one, there was not any mention I could have anyone with me. I have asked them to clarify whether it is an investigation or disciplinary and they have said it is disciplinary. Feel they are not sticking to the proper procedures and it is making it all very stressful.

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Have I understood this correctly, your line manager instructed you to return the cash card to him and you did so and he then subsequently committed fraud with it and left the company?

 

In which case I would be defending the charge of 'giving the card to someone else' on the grounds that interpreted literally once the card was issued an employee the company could never get it back! The prohibition surely cannot apply when an authorised person in the company instructs you to return the card? And you are entitled to assume your line manager is authorised to do that. Do read carefully the form you referred to earlier and see what that says about returning the card though.[/quote

 

 

Thanks for this advice.

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basically they are embarrassed that they have let someone spend their money and do a runner so would rtahe try and get you to admit some wrongdoing regarding handing the card over AS INSTRUCTED than chase the real miscreant and have to risk making their errors public

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Not so, otherwise no-one could ever report a murder! there are however, offences of failing to report a crime or failing to assist an officer in the execution of his duty. Rarely used but sometimes quopted at people to get them to say what they know after they have failed to report a crime.

 

Please reread my post: "Generally the police will only accept crime reports for theft from the victim". I never said anything about reporting a murder.

 

There is no legal duty to report theft crime to the police (or most other crimes).

 

The statutory offence is wilful obstruction of a police officer in the execution of their duty, not the same thing at all as "failing to assist an officer in the execution of his duty". There's an obscure common law duty to assist a constable dealing with a breach of the peace, also not relevant here.

 

Anyway, I'm not trying to give OP a definitive account of what the police will or will not accept as a crime report - which will vary from one police force to another anyway - just flagging to OP that it might not be as straightforward as suggested.

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basically they are embarrassed that they have let someone spend their money and do a runner so would rtahe try and get you to admit some wrongdoing regarding handing the card over AS INSTRUCTED than chase the real miscreant and have to risk making their errors public

 

 

I think you are spot on here! Exactly the case.

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Fraud and theft are criminal offences and can be reported by anyone.

The police SHOULD then start their investigation and interview the victims.

Whether they would do this or brush the report under the carpet is another matter.

Mamy, many, many, many (did i say many?) times i have threatened to go to the police for different things that happened at work and the company tried to blame me or my union companions.

Usually just mentioning the police sorts things out.

The company cannot tell you not to go to the police.

If you believe someone has committed a crime not only you have the right to report it, but also a civil and legal duty.

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If you believe someone has committed a crime not only you have the right to report it, but also a civil and legal duty.

 

That is not true. You do not have a legal duty to report theft.

 

My police force area insist that that they only accept reports of thefts from the victim. Different police forces have their own policies on this.

 

No-one has suggested that the company can tell OP not to go to the police.

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That is not true. You do not have a legal duty to report theft.

 

 

 

My police force area insist that that they only accept reports of thefts from the victim. Different police forces have their own policies on this.

 

 

 

No-one has suggested that the company can tell OP not to go to the police.

Police forces don't even want to take clear cut reports of crime, of course they try to find any excuse to avoid taking any report and the "victim only" rule is plainly wrong.

Same as their favourite punch line "civil matter" for things that are clearly a criminal matter.

"If" means "in case", that's why i said "if the company don't want the op to go to the police".

When is a matter of "harmless" crime like theft and fraud, nothing usually happens to the silent witnesses, but this is not different in law from a murder or assault whereby if you witness the crime or you are aware of it, you should report it.

A lot of people in history have been convicted for "minding" their own business.

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Thanks for all advice. The disciplinary is due now to take place on Monday or Tuesday next week. Is there anything I can do about not following procedure due to the letter just stating it was an investigation and no mention of being able to take anyone in, also this has only been sent by e-mail not had it by letter. I am feeling so stressed now and don't want to go through with it.

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Does the letter say investigation, or disciplinary? Different rules apply to each.


Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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Is the letter clear whether this is an investigation meeting or a disciplinary meeting? The difference matters because if it is a disciplinary meeting - ie a meeting which could result in a warning being issued to you or some other disciplinary being taken against you - you have a legal right to be accompanied by a workplace colleague (or union rep if you have one). There will be a breach of statutory procedure if the employer told you otherwise. See ACAS Code of Practice, page 6, here: http://www.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/f/m/Acas-Code-of-Practice-1-on-disciplinary-and-grievance-procedures.pdf

 

If it is only an investigation meeting you do not have a legal right to be accompanied unless your company says in its staff disciplinary policy that you can be accompanied. Have you got a copy of the staff disciplinary policy? What does it say about being accompanied?

 

It doesn't matter that you have been advised by email.

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The e-mail says investigation but when I queried this I was told that was a mistake it is a disciplinary.

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Generally you let them not follow procedure then hang them for it at ET. Did you find someone to accompany you?


Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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