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nik_endeavour

Private car Sale gone bad - buyer want his moneyback - where do i stand?

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Hi everyone,

 

I made account to seek some help with regards to a car I sold yesterday. This is the advert:

 

I have for sale my Black e46 320D BMW. I am a BMW enthusiast and selling this due to lack of space at home now. The car has a relatively high mileage (over 170k) but do not be put off.

 

I have serviced this car personally every 6 months including:

 

Glow plugs

oil (BMW spec)

filters (cabin, oil and fuel)

coolant

brake fluid.

 

I have just changed the oil and filter prior to sale.

 

I work part time as at a garage and have access to tools and trade prices. The car was driven only on long motorway runs (30 miles trips).

 

I has never been revved in my possession when cold and car has receipts for a new turbo and fitting done a couple of years ago and a new ABS pump.

 

Clutch and flywheel solid too.

 

Break hoses have been changed too prior to last MOT in June (no advisories).

 

I have upgraded it with 4 19" M sport wheels with no welds or cracks in the summer, I have put 25 mm spacers at the back but will supply also the original bolts and/or remove the spacers for you if you want, the tyres were new with only 3 months of driving on them. The wheels alone are worth 400-500 second hand.

 

I have also fitted angel eyes (see pic) and refreshed the leather 6 months ago, the interior looks like it has only 1/3 of the mileage and it drives like that too. I have used this to drive my family around and have never cut corners.

 

Welcome to try and test it, and for the price I will throw a new gearknob with with metal finish and brand new M3 mirrors (heated and electric).

 

I have also just fitted a new glow plug control unit and 3 diesel (reconditioned injectors).

 

 

Car can be viewed in Gloucester or Swindon (I commute everyday between the two

 

 

Buyer signed the sale bill saying that he purchased the car sold as seen. I specifically asked him if he was happy and he said he was after we went for a test drive, looked under the bonnet and under the car.

 

Today he texts me that the A/C belt slipped out as he was driving as he was driving and can see the crankshaft pulley vibrates (probably because its worn). I had no knowledge of this before and told him so. I said to him (before the sale) that the only problem were the leak from the injectors that were replaced.

 

I must clarify I have a normal day job (Office) and I work on a zero hour basis for a local tyre / service shop (hence the message above). I am not a trader and never been registered as one. I have never privately sold a car before (unless P/X to a garage or scrappy).

 

I offered as a gesture as he was guilt tripping me that his wife is in tears and the car is unusable (it isnt A/C wont work for now until the belt is back in and the pulley will need changing by the looks of it), I said if he buys the pulley I will take it to the garage (tyre shop, services not Car Dealership) and replace it for him if he buys the part.

 

He wants full money back, today or will take me to court. After a few messages on text tennis he now claims that the clutch is not good, but I think it is. I am worried he might drive for miles on half cluch in the next few days and have me that way.

 

The only questions he asked me were:

 

1. This failed MOT last summer on rust by the jacking points but I could not see it.

- My reply: Yes because I cut, it weld it and under-sealed it

 

2. Are there any hidden faults?

-My reply: The only faults I am aware of were the injectors and the glowplug unit. There is the a receipt for the Glow Plug unit and here are the old injectors (you can have them) that were replaced Thursday.

 

We signed, he drove away, and text when home that he was home and I can do the car transfer (He just changed the insurance over).

 

I have given all paperwork (including a folder with receipts and all proof of servicing to him) and only have a copy of what we signed that he was buying the car on the 10/03/2018 and was sold as seen.

 

 

The car was advertised for £1450 and he haggled it down via message to £1175 as this is an old car with 175k miles.

 

Quote message: "To be honest car look ok but have 7 previous owners is 15 yo and 175k so every lots of think could go wrong. I can come now im from XXXXX so think about it and let me knowThanks"

 

What shall I be doing?

Edited by nik_endeavour

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HE knew the faults, he had a test drive, he had free roam to check inside and out. He was satisfied so its now his car. No comeback on you at all if you were truthful.

 

There is absolutely no reason to give him his money back and take the car back, especially as you have no idea what hes done after he took ownership of it. It's up to you though. He may try and say he'll take you to court, but as long as you are fully honest, he hasnt got a leg to stand on.

 

He even haggled a discount on it.

  • Confused 1

Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

:D

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I really felt bad for him as he said his wife is in tears and is pregnant and I offered to fit it for him next weekend if he buys the part but worried if this might be considered me admitting liability. I am also worried that i have given him all receipts and paperwork (including service book) and that is all the proof that backs up my advert.

 

I said I cannot take the car back as it is now registers to him (via DVLA online) and that would make my car worthless if I took it back.

 

 

How can I prove that I did not have knowledge of crankshaft pulley being on its way though? There are covers and I could not reasonably see it as car has covers both above and below and the fault was only manifested after he heard the belt for Air Con slip off

Edited by nik_endeavour
typo

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Even though this is a private sale, I think that if he took you to court his chances of success would be pretty high.

 

I think that there are implied terms as to the condition of the car. Although this is not a trade sale, you have mechanical experience and you do work as a mechanic in some role and I think this would be held against you.


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Tell him that if he feels he has a case to take you to court to do so. Then end all communication with him apart from written. Buy from a dealer to benefit from the protection that consumer law affords you, otherwise it really is a case of tough luck inost cases. It's why I would never buy private. You come across as honest so stop worrying,explain that you are not going to change your position and that there is no point in going around in circles.

 

Then get on with your life.

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But wouldnt the fact that the purchaser had full chance to check the condition of the car plus paperwork, and had a test drive help?


Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

:D

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My mechanical experience is as

 

I work at the tyre shop in IT capacity (website, electronics (Diagnose using my laptop and various software (BMW, Audi etc))

I can service a car and change basic stuff like injectors (its not really hard science to remove two nuts)

I can change the oil and filters and use a machine to flush the brake fliuds

 

I help out when I can but I am not a fully qualified mechanic hence my line:

 

I have serviced this car personally every 6 months including:

 

Glow plugs

oil (BMW spec)

filters (cabin, oil and fuel)

coolant

brake fluid.

 

I have just changed the oil and filter prior to sale.

 

I work part time as at a garage and have access to tools and trade prices.

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My mechanical experience is as

 

I work at the tyre shop in IT capacity (website, electronics (Diagnose using my laptop and various software (BMW, Audi etc))

I can service a car and change basic stuff like injectors (its not really hard science to remove two nuts)

I can change the oil and filters and use a machine to flush the brake fliuds

 

I help out when I can but I am not a fully qualified mechanic hence my line:

 

I have serviced this car personally every 6 months including:

 

Glow plugs

oil (BMW spec)

filters (cabin, oil and fuel)

coolant

brake fluid.

 

I have just changed the oil and filter prior to sale.

 

I work part time as at a garage and have access to tools and trade prices.

 

regardless of this, I tend to feel that in the 21st-century the judges have moved on from the rather severe approach that they have had to contracts where private buyers who have not been protected by legislation are on their own.

 

I find it difficult to imagine that a judge will hear that you have been the owner of a motorcar and which you have enjoyed the use of for a certain amount of time and one day an innocent purchaser comes along and parts with £1100 and only a day later discovers that the condition of the car is such that it is not driveable and so that he is left with essentially a hulk and also is deprived of his £1100 and that you are able to walk away from the hulk with your money in his pocket, and that judge will simply tell the purchaser that is tough luck and that he should be more careful next time.

 

The judge has a duty to apply the prime objective and that is to produce a result which is in the interests of justice. I think that justice nowadays is about reaching a fair result on all the circumstances.

 

I'm afraid that if the purchaser of your vehicle came to this forum and asked for advice, that I would suggest that he begins a small claim in the County Court with a fairly high expectation of success.

 

Had this been 100 years ago or even 50 years ago, I would have told him not to bother.


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private sales have now changed stated online buyers don't have same rights of taking dealers to court or action

 

so if its sold as seen and then a fault appeared he as to prove that the fault was already there before it sold

 

the court would say you test drove it and you checked it then why buy it and then 1day later say its faulty

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If you HONESTLY described the vehicle and pointed out any faults that you knew about then it is buyer beware.

Working in the motor trade means that you are expected to know more about possible faults if they are present but that doesnt make you a motor trader.

 

Also look at the mileage, no-one should expect the car to be like new so it wiil boil down to did you know that the car had faults that werent obvious at the time of inspection and was the car priced according to its condition?

 

If the going rate for a banger is half the price you got then the answer to that would indicate that the car was better than that average and some expectation that it will work for a decet time.

Edited by dx100uk
spacing

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He texted you this:

 

"To be honest car look ok but have 7 previous owners is 15 yo and 175k so every lots of think could go wrong. I can come now im from XXXXX so think about it and let me know thanks"

 

He knew he was buying an old motor with lots of mileage and plenty of different drivers.

He got the price down to just over a grand.

To be honest that's scrap money for a BMW 320.

 

You can sell a door on eBay for £300 in seconds any time of the week.

Wheels and tyres would easily go for £50/corner and you already got your £1000.

Then you can strip all interiors, electric, engine etc.

 

Honestly, i don't think he got a bad deal.

 

If he was looking for a mint BMW without any fault he should have looked at something with half of that mileage and age.

 

If you have storage space, maybe behind the workshop you work at, get your car back and sell all the parts.

 

You'll probably make more than £3k.

Edited by dx100uk
spacing

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To break it down your main responsibility as a private seller is to not mis-represent the vehicle in the advert text. You dont have to declare if it has been a previous insurance total loss for example.

 

I keep seeing civillians making the same mistakes when advertising their vehicles. If you start putting things like 'great runner, very reliable and won't let you down' then one is asking for trouble. Really just list the mileage, history and main features of the vehicle thats it. Its a good idea to write a 'Bad Points' list though and many do.

 

The only real chink in your armour is when you start putting 'clutch and flywheel solid too', i take it you meant it was servicable and not that it had a solid flywheel conversion.

 

I would tell the guy to do his worst. Its almost a given now that certain minority groups will do this very thing after getting a car home as a matter or course. The 'my wife is crying' bit is a common ploy. The guy bought a vehicle that was beyomd its design life (both on age and mileage) for the same as what some spend on a pushbike at Halfords. Don't give in.

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I am such that although the belt has come off, the car is still very driveable. Am I correct?

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If an auxiliary belt ‘comes off’ it can cause major issues, the same belt normally drives the power steering pump (if not electric), the alternator plus the AC compressor. Sometimes a belt comes off and gets wrapped around the other pulleys/tensioners causing a right mess.

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