Civil Enforcement Parking Charge notice issued to Disabled Friend.

[deadthings]

Thank you for that very kind reply.

I was thinking along the same lines.

 

Obviously dealing with disabled people a lot, I do tend to be very aware of discrimination, and looking at the signs, and their height, I am certain they are inappropriately positioned for disabled users, especially wheelchair users. There are no low signs whatsoever, and all of the signs are in areas that are very poorly lit.

 

In respect of that small car park, one sign is stuck the other side of where cars park, and the other is blocked by trees and a trolley shelter.

The disabled parking bays are right at the other end, and were all full so unsuitable to be used, and besides the front entrance to the cinema is on the corner of the car park where she parked, so much more suitable for her needs.

 

She still has 2 weeks left to appeal, so I will draft a letter for her later today to appeal, and we will take it all the way to court if necessary.

If they do take it to court, I will come back here for advice on it, but I will also enlist support from other agencies that deal specifically with discrimination against disabled, to support her case against the parking company.

 

Thank you again.

Edited March 14, 2018 by dx100uk
spacing

[ericsbrother]

all you say above about discrimination is irrelevant and this is something you must get your head around.

 

Once you start looking at what the problem is and forget all about discrimination unless you have a copy of their policies on this and they have broken them.

You take that up with the landowner, not CEL.

You beat CEL with their own stick.

 

AS for appealing, that is a farily low priority as fairness and objectivity dont come into it, CEL are crooks and nothing more. Ask Trading Standards.

 

Appealing will necessarily identify her as the driver at the time so can be more damaging than not appealing and let them do their worst as they have already got things wrong adn will do so again

 

let us consider the sigange, the signs that say free parking TERMS APPLY are not offers of a contract, they are "invitations to treat" and allow the motorist to park without having to accept the terms in other signs that actually offer the contract.

 

the other signs are unlawful as they do not show membership of an ATA.

The signs that do have the BPA logo the wrong symbol on to show participating membership so that means they are in breach of the BPA code and have broken the la in obtaining the keeper details.

 

Their NTK is not POFA compliant so ne keepr liability AS LONG AS YOU DONT WRITE TO THEM APPEALING AS THE DRIVER.

 

My advice is that your friend ignores this deadline and any subsequent demands and then when it looks like they want to play rough send a strongly worded letter telling them they are talking out of the wrong end of their alimentary canal and that she looks forward to Ashley Cohen wasting his money on a court claim. ( he is the real owner of this co but hides behind other people's skirts)

Edited March 14, 2018 by dx100uk
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[deadthings]

OK I didn't see your response to this until it was too late. Sorry.

 

I did do an appeal.

I will attach what I wrote, and their response here.

We have also appealed to Popla too.

 

What I'm saying is reasonable though, because the signs are all over 7 feet above ground, and anyone in a wheelchair honestly has no chance whatsoever of seeing them.

 

Which I would imagine if it came to a court case, surely would have to be considered by the judge. A person in a wheelchair has no chance whatsoever of being able to read the small print. Absolutely impossible. Surely if you can't possibly access the small print to read it you cannot be expected to have entered into a contract?

 

We also complained to Cineworld, but they have refused to assist, and have now just replied that from now on they will ignore us! Awful company.

 

As part of the cpmpany's defence to Popla, they enclosed photographs of the car, registration, and one has her photographs, her face in the car, driving.

 

I'll get the things I have, letters etc, and attach them as PDFs.

 

Thanks for the assistance.

[deadthings]

OK, I will attach here pdfs of first the original appeal, which is as it was, using no identifiable terms, and was not signed. It had a photocopy of the PCN, that was all.

 

Also attached their useless response.

 

Then the Popla appeal we used, and then our comments to their defence documents.

 

their defence did include photographs of the drivers face, so they have that anyway, plus all her information.

 

I do fully appreciate what you're saying about the legality of the signs being the most important element, and will for sure read more about it now. However my position is looking at the rights of the disabled, and how signs that are 7 foot high up, with a lot of small print, nobody in a wheelchair could access them to read them, and in that respect they do discriminate.

 

I intend to contact Wigan Council to find out the planning permission for the signs, and then to challenge them on the grounds that they discriminate against disabled. As far as this parking notice go, it may not be relevant, but with regards disabled rights it is important.

 

Anything else you think you might need from us please just say. I'm also writing to her local MP, to complain about all of this, the placement of the signs, the lack of being able to pay for extended stays, etc. I'll keep going until someone takes notice, and will continue to follow advice given here.

 

Thanks.

CEL Combined.pdf

Edited May 24, 2018 by DragonFly1967
Combined attachments

[Bazooka Boo]

I doubt they'll read any of that, they never read your appeal, they're even less likely to read war and peace.

 

 

Hopefully you've not identified the driver because they will be like a dog with a bone, much better to ignore them let them dig their own grave and waste money attempting to win in court, I fear you've just done their job for them?

[ericsbrother]

you have ignored all of the advice given regarding this and you lost the appeal.

No surprise there becuse you are damned by your own words and now you come back asking how to recover the situation.

 

Well, start by getting your head round the simple fact this is about contracts and their lawfulness and ability to be enforced and nothing to do with disability, especially when you tell the bandts that a support worker has read and agreed the contract on behalf of the disabled person.

 

as for asking Wigan council about the siganege and disbility discrimination, what part of planning law does that come into?

If the signs dont have PP the CEL are sunk and that is all that matters.

 

There is nowt in planing law that coveres advertising to disbled people being different and many disabled people will feel quite aggrieved at you for claim that somehow they are discriminated against because you are ignorant about such matters ( and that includes 3 regular contributors to the parking threads including me)

 

Now get your head around what is relevent and that is signage and whether it forms a contract that can be understood, agreed and enforced.

The council cant affect the first 2 parts, the lack of PP will matter to the last

[deadthings]

I didn't see your last response, so didn't get that you had suggested ignoring them until after I had responded.

They did have photographs of the car, and the driver.

 

Popla has denied the appeal, which I fully expected, because they state that it was daylight when she entered the car park, and so she could easily see the signs.

 

They ignored the claims about their being positioned in such a way that she could not get close enough to see them in order to see them.

 

I am not surprised that it was denied, I believe Popla is a waste of time.

 

I also haven't ignored all what has been said.

I followed DragonFly1967 advice, about contacting Cienworld and complaining direct, etc.

You and he seem to disagree and then you have a go at me as if I am at fault.

 

Let me be clear, this is not my parking charge, and this woman isn't the only person I care for who is disabled, she is one of several.

 

I am doing this as a favour, and have very little spare time for it.

I have a teenage daughter who is taking her GCSEs and cannot be expected to be perfect with this.

 

I am doing the best I can, with what very little time I have for it.

It is just part of me doing what I can for disabled people, so it doesn't help if you are abrupt and unforgiving of me, because I struggle to cope as it is!

 

How have I been damned by my own words when all I did was follow the advice given, collect info on signs, post them here, complaint to local businesses, etc?

 

The parking co had all the info they needed when they sent the charge, car info, her details, and all photos of her entering and leaving, including her face. It's not like it was a big secret!!

 

We simply answered what they already knew and could prove.

 

I will focus on the signs.

I never agreed any contract for her, because I wasn't with her when she got the charge, she was alone. I simply went there another time, and gathered the information that people on here asked me to, so how have I agreed a contract for her, and if by doing that I did so, then why was I told on this forum to go get photos of the site?! That's ridiculous.

 

Asking the Council for input on the positioning of the signs, well surely this is nothing to do with contract law, and entirely on the reasonable treatment of disabled people?

 

Otherwise are you saying the law doesn't insist that disabled people are given special treatment for their needs? Given what I do full time, I can assure you in everyday life that their needs are treated very differently, legally and otherwise in British society.

 

They have protections which are not just about simply discriminating against them, but about protecting them from being denied access to anything due to their inability to function as we do.

 

So if you're still interested in dealing with this, please do advise on what aspects of the signs I should focus on, or whether she should just pay up.

 

I doubt they'll read any of that, they never read your appeal, they're even less likely to read war and peace.

 

 

Hopefully you've not identified the driver because they will be like a dog with a bone, much better to ignore them let them dig their own grave and waste money attempting to win in court, I fear you've just done their job for them?

 

I didn't need to identify the driver, they had her car info, photos of her face, of her entering and leaving.

 

In all appeal letters, they were not signed and nothing was attached, except a photocopy of their parking charge. It states the case, and nothing to confirm identity.

 

I didn't see the note to ignore until now, and was following DragonFly1967's advice, to take photos and carry out complaint to local businesses.

 

If you read through the responses on this thread, you will see some say to do one thing, and others say to do another thing, and clearly for someone not used to dealing with it, it can be confusing what to do.

Edited May 31, 2018 by dx100uk
merge / spacing

[dx100uk]

looking into it too deeply DT

 

theres no legal remit that because they have 'a photo' of 'a person'

that 'that person' was 'the driver'

they don't have and cannot use face recognition as they will have no legal access to any records to check if the 'face' they have 'is' the same as the 'driver'

 

disability discrimination has zero effect or standing toward the signs.

 

your inquiry to the council was never anything to do with 'the positioning of the signs'

it was to enquire if the Parking Company had planning permission for them to even be there.

 

very basic mistakes caused by looking into things too deeply …

 

you've not harmed anything.

 

but it might be worthy to correctly apply to the council toward if the PPC has PP for their signs...

[ericsbrother]

you still keeo banging on about her being disabled, it is totally irrelevant to a breach of contract. If a disabled person gets done for drink driving is that an excuse for such behaviour? the equalities act doesnt apply to every part of life.

 

 

As for identifying the driver by a photograph, this has been explained and yet you somehow dont believe the explanation so lets try again, they have a picture of someone driving the car. There atre approximately 29 million people entitled to drive that car in the UK they dotn know who the picture is of, all they can do is suppose and that isnt good enough.

 

 

so stop repeating yourself when it is pointed out that what you are saying is incorrect or irrelevant and concentrate on the parts that can get you somewhere and that means reading the advice given very carefully and then not doing what you think or want that advice to say but what it actually says.

 

 

SO, again, the sigange is an invtationto treat, not a contract. Look that up.

 

 

Planning permission is required for the sigange and the cameras under the 2007 town and Country Planning Act. the parking co will lie about this but the law says they have to. Councils tend to deal with other types of signage under deemed consent and that doesnt apply here so dont ask them about what sort of permission, just whetehr they have applied for it or not and if they did was it granted. If you get a load of waffle about deemed consent or the size of signs ignore it as that actually menas the answer is NO, they dont have it and that is all you need to know

Edited June 1, 2018 by honeybee13
Paras

[Lucan]

If I post an anonymous picture that I find on the internet, can you identify that person by name and address, of course you can't but you seem to have this unshaken belief that CEL can.

 

You say they have the driver's picture, name and address, NO they don't, they have a picture that could be anybody in the world and the Registered keepers name and address, now whether the registered keeper and the driver are the same person at the time of this incident that is a problem for CEL, that is why your were advised to even avoid hinting at it.

 

Also, stop going on about the disability aspect, CEL are not listening to you and are certainly not interested in any point you are trying to make regarding it. You were advised to put the disability aspect to one side for now, as at the moment the matter is contractual, the disability part may, or may not be relevant when the time comes and you will be given advice regarding that by the guys on the forum.

 

Don't try and play one advisor against another, take all the advice as a whole, if you are not sure or think you are getting conflicting advice ask for clarification.

 

I appreciate it is not your ticket and you are trying to help out a third party, but it is frustrating when posters are repeating advice and you seem to go your own way,

[brassnecked]

Follow the advice on here, the Equalities Act is no help here, CEL would issue a ticket to someone lying in an electric bed with numberplates parked up in a manner they deem incorrect.

[ericsbrother]

Mobility scooters and even shopping trolleys have been give NTK's and the parking co refused to cancel. The latter was a prank done to many parking co's to test if they actually bother to carry out any soert of quality control. They dont

[brassnecked]

Like to see them take a shopping trolley's keeper to court, would maybe make the muppet MP's sit up and take more notice,

[ericsbrother]

It has happened, the matter was dropped as soon as it became public knowledge. Simple prank, you enter car park past cameras with shopping trolley with your own car number plates on it, leave about 3 hours later and then see if they are stupid enough to issue NTK. More than 1 parking co sent full picture as evidenec to easy to show that the vehicle isnt as described but some will edit pictures to show number plate only. this is where your utube video shows them up.

 

 

Another one is to get filmed driving around the car park and then returning and doing it again later in the day. timestamps stuff them but all of the parking co's will claim that the entry and exit times prove you were there all day and they will argue that your evidence is invented after the event but then drop the matter when you ask for detaisl of every vehicle taht passed through their ANPR between those times. Some have now tweaked their systems but not many

Edited June 4, 2018 by honeybee13
Paras