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G24 PCN - Bangor, Unauthorized parking.


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Hi guys and girls,

 

I have received a parking charge notice through our fleet company (Global) who have added an administration fee of £36 on top of the requested £100 (£60 if paid early..) fine.

 

The reason for the ticket is unauthorized parking out of hours, it was around 11:58pm - 12:13. I had just got a quick bit of food and pulled over in the closest car park to eat.. now I have received this fine i have revisited the site and can see very poor signage that doesn't really tell or indicate to anyone entering that the car park is not available out of store opening hours..

 

There is one small non-reflective sign deep within the entrance on the ANPR cameras (which I didn't notice or see in the dark..), you don't see much signage until you are quite far into the car park and there are no bollards or gates to stop entry.

 

It really feels like they have put minimal signage to catch people out like this.. I have three options I guess? 1) pay the fine, 2) contest via their website appealyourcharge.co.uk, 3) do nothing and wait for more admin fee charges from our fleet service.

 

I have images of the site which I will link once i have reached the criteria to be able to post.

 

does anyone have any advice? It looks like a private firm so am I under any obligation to pay this?

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Hi and welcome to CAG.

 

You can upload the pictures in pdf format without having to wait

 

Can you please fill this out.

 

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?462118-Have-you-received-a-Parking-Ticket&p=4883055&viewfull=1#post4883055

 

As this charge has already been paid, I'm not sure where you stand. Others will be able to answer better than I.

 

This is a common problem with fleet cars and I think you will find that in the terms and conditions of the lease will state that they will pay and forward the bill onto you.

 

An exact address will help us use google to see where the site is and (hopefully) see the signs and lighting.

If you are asked to deal with any matter via private message, PLEASE report it.

Everything I say is opinion only. If you are unsure on any comment made, you should see a qualified solicitor

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Hi,

 

Thank you for the response, I believe the charge hasn't been paid as the fine has been left with me to pay (they just add an administration fee for having to process it).

 

Regards,

Lee

pf.pdf

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OK, let's start with your lease agreement.

 

Do you have, or can you get a copy of the lease agreement so that you're able to read the (very) small print. It will probably say something in there about fines and statutory charges and their "right" to an admin fee for processing them.

 

However. This is neither a fine or a statutory charge, it's just an invoice, nothing more. So unless your lease agreement specifically allows for it, the lease company are on a looser from the start.

 

 

As for the parking signage. This is prohibitive so cannot offer any kind of contract. If there's no contract, you can't have breached it :wink:

 

If you're up for the fight, this will be an easy win for you.

Please note that my posts are my opinion only and should not be taken as any kind of legal advice.
In fact, they're probably just waffling and can be quite safely and completely ignored as you wish.

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Thanks for the reply DragonFly,

 

I am definitely up for the fight, but judging by the looks ofthe policy it states the company will pay it on my behalf regardless?

 

If this was just my private car it would be much easier to contest. Is it worth me raising a case on their appeal website or does me supplying the details enter me into their 'contract' as by acknowledgement?

 

see attached the policy

 

Regards,

Lee

PF company policy.pdf

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Seems fairly watertight. Except that this is not a parking fine. You need to make sure that your company & your lease company are well aware of the difference. This is an invoice, nothing more.

 

If I sent you an invoice, would your company pay it? If so, can you give me your name and the companies address please, I'd like to invoice you for £1.2 million for reading my first reply, which I'll reduce to £800,000 if they pay it within 14 days :thumb:

 

Seems I'd have just as much right to get paid as G24 :lol:

 

If G24 have now written to you directly, I'm assuming that you've received a NtH (Notice to Hirer). That being the case, the lease company and/or your company have been taken out of the loop already and G24 will now be dealing directly with you.

Please note that my posts are my opinion only and should not be taken as any kind of legal advice.
In fact, they're probably just waffling and can be quite safely and completely ignored as you wish.

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I will speak to one of the guys at the fleet company then, no G24 don't have any of my details it all goes through the fleet company, I've only received the Parking Charge Notice, they have no details of mine to my knowledge and I haven't been in contact with them yet.

 

Regards,

Lee

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OK. Get the fleet company to name you as the hirer (not the driver, we'll get to that later). This will remove them from the loop and they'll have nothing more to do with it.

 

You might want to ask for your "admin charge" back as well, as they've breached their own policy on that one. Fairs fair :wink:

Please note that my posts are my opinion only and should not be taken as any kind of legal advice.
In fact, they're probably just waffling and can be quite safely and completely ignored as you wish.

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understand somehting as this is most important IT ISNT A FINE

You are obliged to pay any fines under your lease agreement but this is a speculative invoice that has been incorrectly issued as there can never be such a contractual condition as unauthorised aprking because that is trespass and you can never agree to break the law or be allowed to trespass.

 

Make sure that when you contact the leasing co you use the right terminology or you will get nowhere.

 

so what to do next?

well if they have your details from the keepers response then they can try their luck but the wording used makes it clear that they have no cause for action against you and any court claim will cost them dearly, especially if they take advice from Gladstones or BW Legal

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Thanks for the support and advice so far. I have sent an email and below is the result;

 

Our fleet company have already represented the notice and informed them [our company] is the hirer. They have the right to charge an admin fee for any representation they make on our behalf so they have not breached any policy or agreement.

 

If you manage to have the invoice/notice removed, and gain confirmation of this fact, I will have admin fee credited.

 

Would I be best to contest the notice via their website now?

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Have you actually received a notice from G24?

as for the admin fee have you dug out the lease agreement as they seem to be saying they have a right but them hedge their bets in a way that indicates that this isnt actually so.

 

I would never contest then via their web site but put it in writing to the director of the Co, Waqaas Farooq at 10 Herschel St Slough, 1 1PB and let him know that you are going to sue for the things mentioned alreaay and a compile of others but before you do that get all the info you can so you can rubbish the claim in the first place.

 

Also as it is a company van then there is no such thing as keeper liabilty, it is ONLY the driver they can chase, this is made clear in other court cases sio that is another problem G24 will have.

 

Get the images of the signage at the site posted yup here along with whatever correspondence you have received and we will help you put a letter together. Dont be in a hurry to resolve this, it takes as longas it takes so any deadline they give is immaterial as you arent paying

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I will take a look at one of the draft letters and tailor it appropriately, thanks again guys its much appreciated!

 

Also I have linked the signage further up in a PDF file (pf.pdf) in one of my posts above.

 

I will see if I can get the full lease agreement as the company one doesn't state Parking Charge Noticies only parking fines.. I will not adhear to any deadline they propose as it is as you say not a valid invoice.

Edited by dx100uk
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Can not be a penalty as the guys have indicated, is a prohibition, so no contract and no consequential loss for them to take action to recover. In fact if they tried the CCJ route it would blow up in their face for several reasons.

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post up the letters suitably redacted (your details, reg and any reference numbers inc QR code) and we will see if they have complied with the protocols of the POFA. If they havent they dont have a claim regardless of how good the signage is

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I've taken the liberty of redacting the notice properly and it's attached to this post.

G24.pdf

Please note that my posts are my opinion only and should not be taken as any kind of legal advice.
In fact, they're probably just waffling and can be quite safely and completely ignored as you wish.

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Hi redz.

 

Sorry, I've had to remove your uploads because you left your car reg and possibly other details showing. Please take out anything that could identify you and repost.

 

You might like to thank Dragonfly for spotting that you left some details in. :)

 

HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Uh oh! You've used "The F Word"! dx100uk won't love you anymore :lol:

 

Calling it a "fine" (is fine (see what I did there) really) but it does rather give it more credibility than it deserves. It's an invoice, nothing more.

 

-

 

Now, to the notice.

 

This actually raises a very interesting question right off the bat.

 

There are two pictures on the notice. The top one shows your vehicle entering the car park and has your vehicle index below it. No problem with that, it shows that your vehicle entered the car park.

 

However, the bottom picture shows a vehicle leaving the car park, but where the vehicle index should be it clearly says "No Image"!

 

So, given that the ANPR system has clearly failed to read the index of whatever vehicle it was that was filmed leaving the car park. How on earth are they 100% certain that it was your vehicle? To all intent and purpose, your vehicle could still be parked there as they've not shown any evidence at all of it leaving.

 

-

 

Just about the only statement of fact on that entire document is the date!

 

As you've already been told, the signage on the site is prohibitive. The sign (displayed clearly or not) says 'No Parking when we're shut' (or words to that effect). That's not a contract to park, therefore you have not been offered a contract and so you cannot have agreed to or indeed breached one.

 

So, the only party that can take legal action against you is the land owner for trespass, if they were lucky, they'd be awarded £1. Although, that won't stop G24 from trying of course.

 

Now that you've been named as the hirer, G24 will write directly to you and the lease company has been removed from the loop.

 

I would be tempted to write to G24 to ensure that they know that you were the hirer and that any further correspondence should come directly to you. And although it's highly unlikely to succeed, I would include the following by way of an appeal.

 

G24

 

Thank you for contacting me regarding parking charge number: XXXXXXXXXXXX

 

I note with some interest that although the charge notice includes two images, the second image of a vehicle leaving the site, does not show any vehicle index, so could be any random vehicle. So there is no evidence at all that it is in fact, my hired vehicle.

 

I believe therefore that you yourselves have shown that there was no breach of any supposed contract as you have failed to show any evidence of a specific time that my hired vehicle remained in the car park, any total length of "parking", whether or not it was actually parked at all, or whether or not the driver at the time was reading the signage before vacating.

 

On top of this, I am informed that the signage at the site when the store is closed is prohibitive and therefore cannot offer or imply a contract to either accept or breach.

 

I therefore consider this matter closed and I await your letter confirming same.

 

 

Signed

 

Vehicle Hirer

 

(don't actually sign it)

Please note that my posts are my opinion only and should not be taken as any kind of legal advice.
In fact, they're probably just waffling and can be quite safely and completely ignored as you wish.

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Just to add a little more background to what I've posted above.

 

By putting up a notice saying "No Parking", either the PPC (if the sign is theirs) or the land occupier or owner has erected a forbidding sign. Something that is forbidden cannot then go on to say, but it's ok if you do X, Y or Z. It's either forbidden or it's not. By putting up a sign that says no parking, there cannot be a further sign that attempts to override it by offering conditions and/or a contract to do something that has already been forbidden.

 

So whilst the PPC's contractual signs *might* be OK while the store is open, they have absolutely no relevance once the store is closed.

 

Whilst this is for a different cowboy outfit, the principle is exactly the same. http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/pcm-uk-signage-does-not-create-contract.html

 

There are plenty of other cases out there that have been dismissed at court on exactly the same grounds, usually by IPC Members, so G24 might look a little bit silly if they want to throw their money away like this.

Please note that my posts are my opinion only and should not be taken as any kind of legal advice.
In fact, they're probably just waffling and can be quite safely and completely ignored as you wish.

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their letter isnt compliant with the POFA so they have no right to enforce against anyone.

If the keeper had any brains they would have told G24 to get lost as the NTK was issued too late to create a keeper liability anyway. This is somehting you can use to fight any cahrges they wish to add you your account (they had no liability and failed to mitigate any possible losses), .

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  • 2 weeks later...
I've taken the liberty of redacting the notice properly and it's attached to this post.

 

Thank you for the amendment.

 

I have sent a letter as per guided from you guys, much appreciated, i will keep you updated :)

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Dont forget, theese people arnet honest brokers but if your letter is worded in a manner that lets them know you arent going to given them anything and it will cost them dear they may well just go quiet or respond by sayng they know they are right but on "this occasion" let you off

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Upon sending the letter - we have recieved this back from them to the company instead of myself which I have stated my details which they have clearly ignored.

attached is rejection letter.

 

where do I go next? as I don't want them sending the company letters.

 

Regards,

Lee

rejection.pdf

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Hi.

 

The general opinion seems to be that the IAS isn't usually worth bothering with, if that helps. I expect forum regulars will be around later to answer your questions.

 

HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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