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SIP/Gladstones claimform - overstay PCN. Walmer Street Car Park Manchester

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Hi,

the driver parked at Walmer Street car park on 8/4/17 and went over the parking time by 20 mins.

 

After 28 days i received the 'Notice to keeper', which after reading online i ignored and any further correspondence thereafter.

 

Unfortunately it is now being taken to court.

My argument was that I did not receive any photo of the parking as i or any other driver of the vehicle couldn't recall parking at the relevant car park.

 

I have a court case on 27th February 2018 and just received the Witness statement from Gladstones Solicitors.

I have attached a few of the pages,

 

please can someone advice on what i can do.

I do notice from the photos the ticket that was purchased states 'Wilmslow Road' which is acknowledge in the statement but the case mentions 'Walmer Street', can i use this in court as my defence?

 

if there is anything else that i can use so i can prepare before the case.

 

If you need any other information please feel free to ask.

 

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

 

Many Thanks

Edited by honeybee13

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no ticket slapped on car at the time? then they are timed out to create a keeper liability and unless you ahve told them that you were driving at the time then they dont know who was the driver and this is the only person they can sue and solely in that capacity.

 

Yes the claim must refer to a specific palce so wrong address and you can say that you were never there so no brwch of conditions that can lead to a claim.

 

The contract they have snet you is out of date so they have no authority according to their own paperwork.

Gladstons solicitors are the IPC in another frock and will ahve written a rubbish particulars of claim that dont address these points.

 

Your problem is that you have failed to come here soon enough to enable us to give you the help your really need as your Witness Statement should have been sent 2 days ago.

 

Now, you get down to the 2 named places and take pictures. if one of the addresses doesnt have a car park then you still tyake pictures as you will impress upon the judge that no such palce/signage etc exists so the claim is faulty ( you dont say fraudulent becasue the courts always believe that no-one tells lies, they are just mistaken)

 

Go and get the pictures by the end of the day and we canm then write you something to go with them otherwise all we can do is pick holes in their claim and without any evidnce of your own they may well be grudgingly accepted as having a claim.

 

i will write somehting up early tomorrow morning for you but pictures first if possible.

Edited by honeybee13
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Thanks ericsbrother.

 

Yes unfortunately my mistake on leaving this too late.

 

I am going down tonight so will take pictures,

although the car park referred to is a proper car park with signs etc.

 

In reference to the 'contract' being out of date.

From what document and contents did you make that statement so i can hopefully use in my defence :)

 

As you will see from the photo of my car with ticket in windscreen it shows 'Wilmslow Road' and the case refers to 'Walmer Street Manchester' is that good enough to dispute?

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Reading that, I don't think that the contract is out of date (unfortunately).

 

It does state that it is for 12 months, but further states that the contract then continues on a 12 month rolling basis unless cancelled.

 

I'm confused by the P&D ticket displayed. It says "Wilmslow Road", yet both you and Gladrags in their WS are saying "Walmer Street".

 

Where exactly were you parked?

Where did you purchase the ticket?

Do SIP 'manage' a car park on Wilmslow Road?

Where is Wilmslow Road in relation to Walmer Street?

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I think that we're going to need to see absolutely everything that you've received if there's any hope of helping you with this. You need to cover over things like names, case numbers, vehicle registrations and anything else that identifies you before you upload it as a multi page PDF. (ideally in the correct order) :thumb:


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Thanks for your reply DragonFly. See attached, a list of the car park the SIP guys manage and it shows Wilmslow Road Manchester and Walmer Street as 2 separate parking (the YES is referring to leasehold).

 

Walmer Street car park from the picture is where the car was parked (I haven't told them who was driving).

 

But when ticket was printed from the machine it stated Wilmslow Road.

The notice clear states 'exceeding time' so the fine was exceeding the time parked.

But the whole case is stating Walmer Street. Hope attach helps.

 

I have just seen your other reply so i will try and get the complete witness statement into a pdf in order received and uploaded so you can 'rip' it to shred and find enough 'ammunition' for the case :) . Really appreciate your help sir.

SCAN0025.JPG

Edited by honeybee13
Removing references to driver

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Hmm. So Wilmslow street and Walmer road are shown (I'm assuming that that sheet forms part of their witness statement) by SIP/Gladrags as two separate sites, and indeed have separate site numbers, meaning that they are distinct. That may be one area to explore once we've seen everything else.

 

As a word of caution, the PPC's and "solicitors" (I use the term loosely) have a bit of a habit of 'popping in' to threads like this to see what's being said. In some cases, forum posts have even been referred to in court. So please be careful as to what you say and what is shown in any attachments that you upload. They *might* try to use it against you.

 

You can say things like "my car was parked", but never say "I was parked" or "I did this, or that".

 

The driver of the vehicle parked my car at XYZ car park. Well, you get the idea I'm sure :thumb:

 

Because you've left it so late, there's a good chance that, unfortunately, you might lose the case in court. We'll do our best for you, however it's going to be difficult. But, you still might be able to get it thrown out, or any award reduced, if you can show that they've not done things correctly or are trying it on in other ways.

 

For example...

 

Was there a PCN (not the P&D one) on the vehicle when the driver returned to the car?

Have they shown a PCN attached to the vehicle in any pictures that they are entering as 'evidence'?

 

And then we get on to any 'additional fees' that they're trying to claim from you.

 

Whilst the driver may have (or may not, depending on your point of view) agreed to any signs in the car park setting out terms & conditions including any "recovery fees", the vehicle keeper may not have been a party to that agreement. So, if they are suing you as the driver, they *might* be able to charge the extra amount. But if they're suing you as the keeper, then they most certainly can't.

 

Their Particulars of claim probably say something along the lines of "the defendant, being the driver and/or keeper of the vehicle". Well, which is it? They can't have it both ways and they have to state who they are suing and why. Not just throw lots of balls in the air in the hope of hitting one.


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As it's a hire/lease vehicle, does the hire/lease company specifically exclude any other driver, or can anyone drive it given the proper insurance and your permission?

 

So. Without naming anyone.

 

Are there other people that are insured to drive the vehicle?

Are there any other people that could drive your vehicle under their own insurance policy?

Could they have had access to the vehicle at that time?

 

If the answer to any of the 3 questions above is yes. Then they can only sue you as the hirer and not as the driver, as they would not be able to prove (on balance) that the driver and the hirer were one and the same person.

 

Therefore, according to their own sign that they have submitted as evidence...

 

Under the white box.

 

By parking or remaining at this site otherwise than in accordance with the above, you, the driver, are agreeing to the following contractual terms:

 

And as we've now established that according to their sign "you" means 'the driver', it cannot also mean the keeper (or hirer)...

 

You agree to pay consideration in the form of a 'parking charge' in the sum of £100.

 

You will be liable for additional parking charges.

 

Failure to pay the charge may result in the vehicle's keeper details being obtained from DVLA. Enforcement action may incur additional costs that will be added to the value of the parking charge and for which the driver will be liable.

 

Those are their own words. Where on their sign does it say that the keeper (or in your case, hirer) will be liable for a single penny?


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In regards to the defence statement,

 

it was hand written and i no longer have a copy

 

but it was simply stating that i requested for the photo evidence and nothing has been received to this date.

 

Anyone can drive the vehicle as longs as they are insured, yes myself and 1 other name driver is insured on the same insurance but other drivers with own insurance can drive vehicle under 3rd party cover only.

 

So your finding and advice is very interesting and i surely can use this in court! fantastic!

claimants WS.pdf

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You can. But DO NOT BE TEMPTED to lie to the judge. That could end very badly for you indeed! Contempt of court could cost you a great deal more than a parking ticket :-(

 

If you can't remember who was driving but you're as sure as you can be, given the obvious passage of time, that it wasn't you. Then say so. Only the driver is liable, their own signs say so, so feel free to use that against them.


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thread tidied

post 10 pdf redacted property

please get that other link done please


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Do the photographs of the car show a ticket on the windscreen?

Have you received the copy of the agreement allowing SIP to administer the parking-if yes could you please show us.

 

You need to go to the car park and take photos of the actual signs and where they are situated.

 

If they do not coincide with their Witness Statement-and often they don't it calls into question the veracity of the whole WS.

 

Get on to the Council and ask if under the Town and Country Act Advertising and ANPR Regs. do they have permission to erect their signs. Most companies don't bother which is a breach of the BPA code and also the Law so a contract cannot be formed with whoever parks there.

 

Also under POFA all that can be claimed for is the amount stated on the parking ticket not any old figure they care to concoct on top.

 

Please fill out the questionnaire on post 8 asked for by dx100uk.

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These are in the uploaded doc lfi :thumb:

 

Definitely worth looking in to the rest of your suggestions though. Having left it until past the 11th hour, the OP is going to need all the ammunition that they can get hold of to fight these bandits off.


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If you look at the contract it is signed by SIP as Landlord and SIP as operator. You need to check with the Local Council who pays the non-domestic rates and if it is SIP car parks. Also check with Land Registry that SIP Car Parks are the Landlord.

 

There was a major case in Manchester where one of the judges held all cases until SIP could prove they were landlords as the DJ thought there was something suspicious. Result is not know as the case was only a few days ago - so it will pay you to check,

 

There is a chance that SIP Parking only supplied signs as shown in this article.

 

See this article https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/local-news/company-boss-awarded-1200-after-737025

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rolling contracts arent worth a light unless the parkig co can prove they have been carried over. i wish I could put my fingers on relevant case but parking co need to prove it has been carried over.

 

As already said it looks like SIP had a deal with LL once and have sold that on when they donthave any right to and have also signed both sets of paperwork. An agreement with a third party needs to show a clear chain of authority back to the landowner.

 

Get your stuff posted up asap as your paper evidence is important. You can still turn up on the day and give oral evidence but that will stop you from introducing your own evidence, just allow you to rubbish theirs.

 

WE have a few other things in mind so you will need to do some reading between now and the hearing date, particularly on right of audience and planning law for advertising signs.The parking pranksters blog is a good place to start, there is a long article on planning that is linked to it written by someone who really knows about it so you would be wise to print it off and refer to it and make copies ofr the court hearing.

Edited by honeybee13
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See below completed form:

 

Name of the Claimant: SIP Parking Ltd

claimants Solicitors: Gladstones Solicitors

Date of issue – 9th December 2017

 

 

What is the claim for –

 

Amount £160

For exceeding time of parking ticket.

Parking Notice Charge was issued 20mins after my parking ticket expiry time.

 

 

Location is Walmer Street Manchester.

 

 

What is the value of the claim? £160

 

Has the claim been issued by the Private parking Company or was the PCN assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim ? Private Parking Company (SIP Parking Ltd.)

 

Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment? Yes

claimants WS.pdf

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link in post 15 sorted


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they are wrong about damages,

that is the entire point of the Beavis decision,

they get a flat fee and dont have to prove what it cost for them to issue the ticket.

 

Also if they are claiming that you have keeper liability

s9(2) of the POFA limits the amount claimed to the amount specified in the NTK and that wasnt £160 so where does the rest come from?

Answer Gladdys make it up and keep the extra £60 for doing the claiming on the parking co's behalf. (see champerty and maintenance)

 

As it is the weekend get those pictures of both palces,

entrance to both car parks,

signs there and anything else,

esp the ticket machine if they have codes on them

 

They are claiming they slapped a ticket on your car 20 mins after the expiry time and you have never seen this ticket.

If the NTK was genuinesly 28 days after the date of the event they are a day too early to issue the NTK and that means they cant claim a bean from you as the keeper.

 

More on this later

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Thank you guys for all your help so far..

 

Here are the images of the Walmer Street car park.

unfortunately I was unable to find Wilmslow Road carpark,

even checked on net and maps but no luck.

 

I drove up and down Wilmslow Road looking for a sign showing 'Wilmslow Road Car Park' but nothing.

 

For Walmer Street car park there was a sign on Wilmslow Road pointing to Walmer Street car park but nothing the same for Wilmslow Road. So attached are all images from Walmer Street car park.

 

1 thing I notice is that the case is for the time exceeded on my ticket,

and if you see from the image of the ticket by the WS from the claimant it says 'Wilmslow Road'

also £2 paid on a Saturday,

 

From the image taken on the pay and display machine of Walmer Street car park for a Saturday there is no £2 car park option.

Not sure what happen??

 

Hope this helps finds some holes in the case in my favour :)

 

Thanks in advance guys.

 

Ok thanks for the advice, see attached.

walmer_st_carpark.pdf

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wrote a great wodge fo stuff but lost is when time out. I have sent you a message

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Oh no, really sorry to hear about what happen, appreciate your efforts..

 

Unfortunately as i am new on here when i try to reply to your email it gives me a message about not being able to send PM as i need to have had 30posts and only have 6 :

 

( Would you be able to write out the statement in word document and then upload the attachment. Thanks in advance.

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in the process of doing so

 

you need to go to the parking pranksters blogspot july 2017 and look at an atricle headed new transcript, keeper not liable and then about 2 lines in there is a link to a transcript of this case. print it off and attach t to your evidence bundle as I have referred to it

It is VCS v Quayle transcript

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Thanks ericsbrother, will definitely have a look at that, also have emailed you directly :)

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Print off the research article linked at the bottom of the parking pranksters blog of the 16th DEC 2017 and add that to your bundle. Print off the transcript otherwise no point mentioning it. Copies to court and to Gladdys.

 

You might find they are suddenly unavailable on your court day.

 

i would also be looking for a full costs recovery order under CPR 27.14.2(g) for their unreasonable behaviour as they disclosed no reasonable grounds for bringing this case. write a letter to this effect and add it to your bundle.

 

You throw everything you can into this. Also look up the rules on rights of audience in courts and when you get into court you need to ask whoever is representing SIP whether they are a solicitor and what their SRA roll number is. If they are not a solicitor then they must work for either SIP or Gladstones, no-one esle has a right to speak but they will try it on and claim because they work for someone who has had the instructions from gladstones at the last minute that counts.

 

No it doesn't. On the same track you will be wanting to cross examine their witness so if they arent present you ask that their witness statement be discounted because you state there are serious errors that can only be addressed by the person who wrote it.

 

They are lazy and not averse to telling incomplete or erroneous statement so try and get their evidence chucked out or at least diminished in importance without going as far as saying it is a pack of lies

Edited by Andyorch
Paras and spacing

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