Management company accounts. Many duplicate invoices.

[king12345]

well, you can if the claim you intend to make is enough to get the matter into the higher level than a small claims track.

 

I wouldn't have a figure to go by.

Without the paperwork I can't find out how much they overcharged.

I could calculate the overcharge percentage from last year (45% approx) and apply it to previous years.

That would give me a figure of roughly £3000.

Can I claim for a figure to be arranged?

Or an approximate figure?

Would they have a defence by mentioning the landlord and tenants act or is there another legislation which overrides it in case of irregularities?

Thanks

[king12345]

Hi everyone, little update:

 

14 months have passed and they keep on saying that they need more time to collate all documents from 3 previous years.

 

I have upped my game giving 14 days to submit documents, after that I will calculate refund based on 2016/2017 overcharge figure.

 

To be honest I don't know how well that would work in court considering that they are not obliged to disclose anything past 12 months.

 

I am relying on the fact that last year accounts are wrong and court (If it gets that far) would see that as a good reason to disclose.

 

One thing I am not sure about is the fact that I did not receive the actual costs or summary for those 3 years, just estimated bill and looking at the regulations, they need interpretation on this point.

 

In the mean time , we received the actual costs for 2017/2018 which were estimated at £620 (half of any previous year).

Apparently they only spent £430.

 

That's a third of what they charged us in previous years and from the summary I already spotted £50 overcharge.

Requested documentation for 2017/2018, let's see...

[Surfer01]

I think accounts need to be kept for 5 years and you should be able to get the accounts for the past 5 years as the management company is probably appointed by the tenants.

 

Have they been submitting returns to the tax man as ll thsi should be available?

 

They have had more than enough time to submit the documents and you are being very generous by giving them another 14 days.

 

I guess they are not taking you seriously as they have already had 14 months and now another 14 days.

[king12345]

The accounts submitted to HMRC are for the whole company, so I won't be able to check the ones for my building.

In the landlord and tenants act it states:

 

22Request to inspect supporting accounts &c.

 

(1)This section applies where a tenant, or the secretary of a recognised tenants’ association, has obtained such a summary as is referred to in section 21(1) (summary of relevant costs), whether in pursuance of that section or otherwise.

 

(2)The tenant, or the secretary with the consent of the tenant, may within six months of obtaining the summary require the landlord in writing to afford him reasonable facilities—

 

(a)for inspecting the accounts, receipts and other documents supporting the summary, and

 

(b)for taking copies or extracts from them.

 

Reading point 22(1) I interpreted that my request must be fulfilled once I received the summary of expenditures which I never received for those 3 years.

 

Further, on point 22(4):

(4)The landlord shall make such facilities available to the tenant or secretary for a period of two months beginning not later than one month after the request is made.

 

So in my interpretation of the act, they are surely out of time, but having never served me with the summary of expenditures , the clock never started ticking.

 

Am I going in the right direction?

[king12345]

Also, I found this in the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act 2002 section 154:

 

(4)But if—

 

(a)the statement of account is not supplied to the tenant on or before that date, or

 

(b)the statement of account so supplied does not conform exactly or substantially with the requirements prescribed by regulations under section 21(4),

 

the six month period mentioned in subsection (3) does not begin until any later date on which the statement of account (conforming exactly or substantially with those requirements) is supplied to him.

 

To me is clear that they haven't complied and I am within my rights to ask for these documents.

What do you think?

[king12345]

Hi everyone, so as predicted after more time given to them on their request they have not delivered.

So now I have to up my game, formal request of refund and then lba.

Should I give them 14 days at each step or 30 days?

Thanks

[Surfer01]

I would think that at this point there is no need to give them any notice as you have already given them ample opportunity and it seems obvious that they are now stringing you along hoping you will fade into the woodwork.

[ericsbrother]

just the lba. 14 days to either fulfil or state why they dont believe they should or court without further notice.

[king12345]

I never gave them a figure because I never received any paperwork.

So I was going to calculate the refund based on the 2016 accounts overcharge percentage.

That's why I was going to ask for this, then lba.

So far I never asked for a refund related to those 3 years, just kept on asking for the documents..

Or should I go straight to lba?

[ericsbrother]

Well, the lba should state how much you know is owed for say 2016 and then you state for the previous x years which is calculated to be £yy. If they respond they can sya how much they owe you or deny owing anything at all but if they say nothing then they cant argue the fine detail of the amount later and get any sympathy.

[king12345]

So lba is.

Thanks

[andydd]

EErrr...Thats hard to get my head around.

 

S154 is just an add-on making changes to the previous S22. - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/15/section/154

 

What you are asking is..can someone send a request to see docs under S22 if the FH hasnt complied with S21 ?

 

I didnt think you could ..Paragraph (4) just moves the date around..I dont think it gives you a right to do S22 if they havnt done S21.

 

Bear in mind not complying with s21 is a criminal offence..unfortunately your local Authority is supposed to do something about it but in practice, few do.

 

The Lease Advice Site has template letter - https://www.lease-advice.org/template-document/leaseholders-request-written-summary-relevant-costs-incurred-section-21-landlord-tenant-act-1985/

 

And general info here - https://www.lease-advice.org/faq/what-should-a-summary-of-the-service-charge-account-under-section-21-of-the-landlord-and-tenant-act-1985-contain/

[king12345]

But section 22(4) says:

(4)But if—

 

(a)the statement of account is not supplied to the tenant on or before that date, or

 

(b)the statement of account so supplied does not conform exactly or substantially with the requirements prescribed by regulations under section 21(4),

 

the six month period mentioned in subsection (3) does not begin until any later date on which the statement of account (conforming exactly or substantially with those requirements) is supplied to him.

 

So as I have never received any summary of expenditures but just invoices and estimates, I am still within my right to ask for documentation under section 22.

 

Unfortunately there's an exemption for a local authority or housing association not complying with section 21, so I can't get them on a criminal offence (they're a housing association)

[king12345]

Sorry, I meant a registered social landlord as they are.

From Landlord and Tenants act 1985:

 

 

25 Failure to comply with s. 21, 22 or 23 an offence.

 

(1)It is a summary offence for a person to fail, without reasonable excuse, to perform a duty imposed on him*[F1by or by virtue of any of sections 21 to 23A].

 

(2)A person committing such an offence is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding level 4 on the standard scale.

 

[F2(3)Subsection (1) does not apply where the person is—

 

(a)a local authority for an area in Wales, or

 

(b)a registered social landlord.]

[andydd]

My reading is the bit "the six month period mentioned in subsection (3) does not begin until any later date on which the statement of account (conforming exactly or substantially with those requirements) is supplied to him." says "IS SUPPLIED TO HIM" so I think it implies that the S21 summary is actually provided but the dates are just moved around.

 

In any event its a bit irrelevant, you can send a S22 request if you want, they may well ignore it anyway..its unlikley they will say "we dont have to comply with s22 coz we havnt complied with S21" !

 

There are other procedures to try and get hold of documents, mostly in the pre-action/court process, disclosure, etc although many of these dont technically apply if its a claim on the small track

[king12345]

I don't understand what you mean with swapping dates around.

I read it that they must supply a summary of accounts along all other bits in the legislation.

Then, I have six months from when I receive such accounts to request receipts and other supporting documents and they have a month to comply.

Can you please rephrase the bit about swapping dates?

Thanks

[andydd]

I mean all the legislation does it allow different deadlines to request or receive the summary........its a bit irrelevant, whats more important is asking for and receiving (or not), in your case it looks like that arnt going to comply with anything anyway.

Edited October 25, 2018 by andydd
o

[king12345]

Ok, thanks

[king12345]

On a related subject, given the above regulation, any registered social landlord is not accountable to placeholders, so they can charge whatever they want and never give summary of accounts.

How come they can do whatever they want and not being accountable???

[king12345]

Hi everyone, I guess there's no answer to my last post, just one of those things!

Anyhow, as an update there's one more week or so before deadline I set in the lba.

In the end I gave them another 30 days, so no chance of claiming that I was unreasonable.

They ignored my letter apart from automated acknowledgement (I sent it via email as well as recorded delivery)

I will start looking at mcol in the next couple of days and I will surely need help with it as in the past I've always used paper forms.

At my old age I have to update my ways LOL

[andydd]

MCOL is a doodle....far easier than paper..its a pity you can only start/do defence on there before it reverts to paper.

[king12345]

Well, after all I might not need it.

I received an email today asking to suspend court actions while my case is reviewed by one of the directors (I copied the CEO in the lba)

I replied by saying that the deadline cannot be extended any further and to come back to me before it or claim will be started, piling up more costs.

I think they're browning their underwear.