Jump to content

 

BankFodder BankFodder


Karlos1

court claimform over our old business vehicle by a private buyer following its failure

style="text-align:center;"> Please note that this topic has not had any new posts for the last 711 days.

If you are trying to post a different story then you should start your own new thread. Posting on this thread is likely to mean that you won't get the help and advice that you need.

If you are trying to post information which is relevant to the story in this thread then please flag it up to the site team and they will allow you to post.

Thank you

Recommended Posts

Hi all,

just interested to know what a 'trader' is classed as when selling a company vehicle.

 

Does the term apply to any business

- such as a Ltd Co Florist that decides to sell a company van?

 

Sold our company van which broke down on the private buyer after a few days.

Said they were going to take it in and get it looked at but heard nothing more until 5 months later

 

they are trying to claim a few thousand pounds off us saying the fault hasn't been identified yet and they have spent a small fortune.

Is this reasonable?

 

They are now claiming I knew about the fault too and i wonder how the hell I can prove I didn't!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone who sells anything is a "trader", but to be a 'motor trader' your business would have to be involved in the buying and selling of motor vehicles, the supply of spare parts or vehicle repairs.

 

If your business, a florist, sells a vehicle, that does not make you or the business "motor traders". It would be a private sale of a company vehicle.

 

-

 

For private sales, the rule of caveat emptor applies and the general advice for buyers is...

 

Buying privately is probably the riskiest way of buying a vehicle. If something goes wrong with it you don’t have as much legal protection as you would if you’d bought the vehicle from a motor trader/dealer.

 

The vehicle must match the seller’s description, be roadworthy and the seller must have the legal right to sell it to you.

 

In other words, the vehicle must work at the time that you buy it, meet the legal requirements for being driven on public roads, and be owned by the seller. But you are responsible for ensuring the vehicle is “of satisfactory quality’’ and “fit for purpose” before you buy it.

 

-

 

As I'm assuming that the vehicle was fine at the point of sale. You had the right to sell it. And the buyer was happy with their purchase, then there's not a great deal that the buyer can do. There's nothing stopping them trying of course (a county court claim perhaps), but that doesn't mean that they're going to get anywhere.

 

It sounds harsh of course, but that is just the way it works.


We could use your help

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

 

 

Please note that my posts are my opinion only and should not be taken as any kind of legal advice.

 

If I've helped you at all, please feel free to click on the little star under my posts and leave feedback :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thankyou DragonFly1967.

 

What I can't seem to ascertain is if under the CRA2015 we could be classed as a 'trader'.

 

We are simply a Florists that sold one of our vans to a private buyer.

The buyer has issued a County court claim against the business and obviously I need to make sure that at any hearing I am able to rightly state that this can't apply to us.

Edited by Karlos1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No you can't. Your business is flowers, not buying and/or selling vehicles.

 

Therefore you are a florist that sold a van, not a motor trader that sold a rose. :thumb:


We could use your help

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

 

 

Please note that my posts are my opinion only and should not be taken as any kind of legal advice.

 

If I've helped you at all, please feel free to click on the little star under my posts and leave feedback :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

a motor trader is someome who buys and sells vehicles for profit or buys with the intention of selling to make a profit.

 

AS for knowing about the fault,

again it boils down to what someone in your position would be expected to know

so if you were a motor trader it is expected that you know a bit about the mechanics of things.

 

As a florist you are expected to point out any problems that you are aware of

so if it makes a knocking noise when it reaches 50mph you are expected to say so and the buyer can take this into consideration.

 

As at least one garage has failed to identify the fault

how the hell are you supposed to know that it was going to occur at some point in the future? a nonsense.

 

Another thing to think about is how was it priced?

If you sold it for an average price for an average vehicle then nothing can be read into that. If you sold it for £15 million then the buyer has a right to make certain assumptions about its condition etc

 

Another thing you can do is go to autotrader, Exchange and Mart and all of the other car selling sites and put in the buyers phone number and see if you get any hits just to see if the buyer is a back street trader trying their luck having spent out more than they can sell it for and seeking revenge for their own greed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The van was priced very competitively (I would go as far as to say perhaps a little on the cheap side) but it was important that we sold it quickly.

 

At the point of sale there were no indications of anything wrong and a fresh mot had also been done and nothing was picked up then.

 

As far as I was concerned it was fit for sale

 

i'm just concerned with the consumer rights Act wording as the way I read it is that anyone selling anything in the course of their business is therefore classed as a 'trader'.

 

am I right in thinking that although sold through the business, this must be classed as a private sale and therefore caveat emptor?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As I said, you are a trader, but you are not a motor trader.

 

There is a distinct difference, don't confuse the fact that you run a business that trades with the fact that the business has sold a vehicle as this isn't what is meant by "trader" when it is taken in context.

 

Their claim against the business is doomed to failure.

 

So am I right in thinking that although sold through the business, this must be classed as a private sale and therefore caveat emptor?

 

Yes, absolutely, 100%


We could use your help

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

 

 

Please note that my posts are my opinion only and should not be taken as any kind of legal advice.

 

If I've helped you at all, please feel free to click on the little star under my posts and leave feedback :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The crux of the matter is not "Trader".

 

It is proving that you did not know of the fault at point of sale.

 

I rather think the onus is on the buyer to prove you knew about the fault at point of sale.

 

Again, you could argue

"I'm a florist not a motor engineer" so how would I know if van was faulty.

 

Their only comeback is if they can prove you knew about fault,

as you are supposed to declare any known faults at time of sale.

 

When I sell a car I never use / advertise it as "In good condition".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've retitled your thread to more reflect your issue.

 

I think the more important thing here is the particulars of claim

please type them out as they appear exactly upon the claimform [minus any details that could ID you]

and also the date on the claimform, top right, which dictates your time scale for responding.

 

take away for the minute, your status as a business seller or not, its really totally immaterial...

what is important is what the claimant claims and states in the POC.

 

its the timescale of when the buyer informed you they were having issues

and what their issues really are...

 

within 14 days as it was obv an 'online' deal they require no reason to want a full refund

within 30 days they can do the same should they claim it is 'faulty'.

 

outside of 30 days but within 6mts, as the seller it is down to you to pay to have the product inspected and conclude that whatever they claim is faulty 'was' your responsibility to either declare at sale or reasonably should have known this would have occurred within 6mts.

 

outside of 6mts its the buyer responsibility to pay for and produce a report that backs up their claim.

all of this is clearly defined under CRA.

 

it appears that the buyer did inform you of an issue within 'a few days'

if that is true, then you will need to outline to the court what actions you took follow that report..

If you did nothing and sat on your hands [rightly or wrongly] sadly that WILL go against you.

 

If you responded to the buyer stating 'please tell us what is wrong' then that somewhat mitigates you.

you showed response as you should.

 

what happened between then and the date of the court claim ??

 

if there was no interaction even though you replied and were left dead

it s a bit harsh for the claimant to go spend £1000's investigating what they claim is wrong without informing you they were doing so...they did NOT have your authority to do so .

 

if you had the initial complaint with 14 days or within 30 days but did nothing..you are on dodgy ground and could lose the whole claim.

 

dx


..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

dx??

 

Are you suggesting that the CRA applies to a vehicle sold by a private seller? Or at least sold by a business who are not in the business of selling vehicles?


We could use your help

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

 

 

Please note that my posts are my opinion only and should not be taken as any kind of legal advice.

 

If I've helped you at all, please feel free to click on the little star under my posts and leave feedback :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Information from Which? [my thoughts in brackets]

 

Second-hand car bought privately

You have fewer rights when you buy a used car from a private seller [surely this would also apply to a business that is selling a vehicle [singular] as long as their business wasn't selling vehicles [plural]], and key parts of the Consumer Rights Act don't apply. For example, there is no legal requirement for a car to be of satisfactory quality or fit for purpose.

 

But contractual rules about misrepresentation do apply. So, legally, the seller must:

 

accurately describe the second-hand car. For example, an ad must not say 'one owner' when the car has had several

not misrepresent the second-hand car, ie tell you something about it which isn't true. For example, if it’s been in an accident, the owner mustn't tell you it hasn't.

If you're buying from a private seller, the onus is on you as the buyer to ask all the right questions before making the purchase. The seller doesn't have to volunteer extra information so, if you don't ask questions, you may not have the full picture of the car's history or be aware of any potential faults.


We could use your help

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

 

 

Please note that my posts are my opinion only and should not be taken as any kind of legal advice.

 

If I've helped you at all, please feel free to click on the little star under my posts and leave feedback :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I've retitled your thread to more reflect your issue.

 

I think the more important thing here is the particulars of claim

please type them out as they appear exactly upon the claimform [minus any details that could ID you]

and also the date on the claimform, top right, which dictates your time scale for responding.

 

take away for the minute, your status as a business seller or not, its really totally immaterial...

what is important is what the claimant claims and states in the POC.

 

its the timescale of when the buyer informed you they were having issues

and what their issues really are...

 

within 14 days as it was obv an 'online' deal they require no reason to want a full refund

within 30 days they can do the same should they claim it is 'faulty'.

 

outside of 30 days but within 6mts, as the seller it is down to you to pay to have the product inspected and conclude that whatever they claim is faulty 'was' your responsibility to either declare at sale or reasonably should have known this would have occurred within 6mts.

 

outside of 6mts its the buyer responsibility to pay for and produce a report that backs up their claim.

all of this is clearly defined under CRA.

 

it appears that the buyer did inform you of an issue within 'a few days'

if that is true, then you will need to outline to the court what actions you took follow that report..

If you did nothing and sat on your hands [rightly or wrongly] sadly that WILL go against you.

 

If you responded to the buyer stating 'please tell us what is wrong' then that somewhat mitigates you.

you showed response as you should.

 

what happened between then and the date of the court claim ??

 

if there was no interaction even though you replied and were left dead

it s a bit harsh for the claimant to go spend £1000's investigating what they claim is wrong without informing you they were doing so...they did NOT have your authority to do so .

 

if you had the initial complaint with 14 days or within 30 days but did nothing..you are on dodgy ground and could lose the whole claim.

 

dx

 

Thanks for the detailed reply.

 

 

It is a case of the claimant notifying me shortly after sale that he had experienced a problem with the vehicle but that the following day it was booked in for a service and the problem would be investigated at that point.

 

 

I heard nothing for several months so assumed all was well until I received a demand for several thousands of pounds to be paid within 14 days.

I refused and from there it has gone to the courts.

 

 

He is claiming under the CRA1979 (as per his description).

 

 

I'm not happy to post the full claim form details on here as it's a public forum and I wouldn't want to jeopardise my defence but happy to do so via pm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can you anonymise the details by taking out names, reference numbers and so on?

 

HB


Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Can you anonymise the details by taking out names, reference numbers and so on?

 

HB

 

probably best not too as the particulars are so detailed it would be obvious to anyone involved should they view this thread.

 

The POC was very limited - just a few words saying that he bought the vehicle, it broke down and he has spent several thousand and still not found the fault.

 

I submitted a full and detailed defence at which point the court asked for a revised statement from the claimant.

 

He submitted that (much more detailed) and the court have now asked me to submit a revised statement further to what the claimant wrote (I guess to give me a chance to respond in kind). I haven't submitted that yet.

Edited by Karlos1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
dx??

 

Are you suggesting that the CRA applies to a vehicle sold by a private seller? Or at least sold by a business who are not in the business of selling vehicles?

 

well the buyer does by the sound of it, but that will depend upon what the POC says.

no ofcourse CRA/SOGA/contracts rights etc wont apply its a private sale.

 

sounds like he is trying it on by stating CRA1979, no such thing

I think he is referring to SOGA1979

 

dx


..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
well the buyer does by the sound of it, but that will depend upon what the POC says.

no ofcourse CRA/SOGA/contracts rights etc wont apply its a private sale.

 

sounds like he is trying it on by stating CRA1979, no such thing

I think he is referring to SOGA1979

 

dx

 

Absolutely right, my bad (ill with the flu so not thinking clearly) he is claiming under SOGA1979. The first POC pays no reference to anything other than stating when he bought the van and the issues he has had and money he has spent. Then the Judge requested he submit a revised statement and that is when he mentioned specific parts of SOGA1979.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

then you obv point out to the judge that sadly that can play no part as this is a person to person private sale.

 

you've probably already done this

but it wont hurt to also pointout that had he not been so unreasonable

you might at one point have sought to hrlp him somewhat

but not now as you feel he is simply trying to rip you off.

every car sold could have the same treatment done

and every second hand car will have £1000's worth of 'issue'

 

buyer be ware ..


..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the advice. Is the judge able to throw cases out or do they always go to a hearing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Judges can pretty much do whatever they like.

 

So yes, the Judge could order that the claimant doesn't have a case and simply terminate the claim.


We could use your help

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

 

 

Please note that my posts are my opinion only and should not be taken as any kind of legal advice.

 

If I've helped you at all, please feel free to click on the little star under my posts and leave feedback :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just looking at the particulars and the claimant is specifically trying to claim under SOGO1979.

 

This is only applicable to purchases made before 01st October 2015.

 

Seeing as this is well before this purchase is this a technicality that could be raised in order to try and have it all dismissed on grounds of technicality?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you wont get it so dont bother unless you fancy paying £255 for a N244 submission.

 

By all means mention this in your defence but if the obvious point of not a bsiness transaction doesnt get the judge to ask claimant for more detail/what legal basis for claim then probably best left for the detail in the Witness Statement.

 

I suspect that this will go all the way and then the judge will make a decision on the day.

 

Waste of your time I know so draw up a list of your costs for this and have it ready to present rather than just stating verbally it cost me £x in lost earnings

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    No registered users viewing this page.


  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...