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Hello everyone,

 

I work 3 days a week and my manager has advised me that I've taken too many holidays even though she authorised every single one I took and I requested my holidays according to the number of available days left on our holiday spreadsheet.

 

I think there's been a mix up, because the number of holidays taken are under the number of days off they said I'd be entitled to in the interview. Obviously, I understand that's not set in stone and I will verify again the number of holidays I was due to have.

 

I just wanted to get some advice on here so I am prepared.

They want me to work an extra day a week to make up the time, which is stressing me out.

 

I care for my mother on my days off and I have no outside help.

I struggle to get everything done on those days off as it is.

 

I'm constantly sleep deprived and stressed.

In fact, it's triggered my IBS and I've been signed off work this week.

Do I really have to make up the time as soon as possible?

 

Thank you kindly for any advice.

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Hi

 

How long have you been employed with you present employer?

 

Links:

 

Part-time workers' rights: https://www.gov.uk/part-time-worker-rights

 

Part-time workers: http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1576

 

Holiday entitlement: https://www.gov.uk/holiday-entitlement-rights

 

Annual Holiday Entitlement: http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1374

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I cannot give any advice by PM - If you provide a link to your Thread then I will be happy to offer advice there.

I advise to the best of my ability, but I am not a qualified professional, benefits lawyer nor Welfare Rights Adviser.

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Thank you for your reply.

 

I was told I was allowed 20 days including bank holidays.

 

I took 18 including bank holidays.

 

I will double check with them again how many days I'm allowed.

 

I just wanted to gather some information before Christmas in case I have to make up the days as soon as I'm back in the new year.

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Go back to your employment contract.

It will state what the full time holiday entitlement is and say for part time hours you are entitled to a pro-rata amount.

 

So if the full time holday allowance for a 40 hours a week contract was say 33 days including bank holdays and you worked 20 hours a week, you would be entitled to 16.5 days.

 

Most contracts are annualised hours,

so this holiday might be expressed in hours entitlement,

which is easier if you are part time.

 

Then you look at what standard working hours you agreed per day.

 

So if you worked Mondays,

Tuesdays say 6 hours per day and Thursday/Friday 4 hours a day,

you would use more of your holiday hours if you had holiday on a Monday, than a Friday.

 

Work out your holiday entitlement in hours and then calculate how many hours holiday you have had.

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how much too much do they say you have taken?

If we know this we can then calculate how they have determined your holiday entitlement.

 

Both you and them are entitled to make mistakes and correct them where possible and when they say you have to make the time up they dont mean in the first week of Jan, it can be spread over the year as long as it is agreed.

 

Another way is to take less holiday this year (not the best way of addressing the problem but practical).

Stop getting worked up about it and get the facts and figures so you can offer them a solution rather than just waiting to them to force somehting on you

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The other question to ask is "what is the holiday year?".

Because if it's the anniversary of your start date, you still have three public holidays to go.

 

If it's the financial year (which is common) then you have four more.

 

That might account for yippy having taken more than expected

- you haven't included the public holidays?

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Unless you provide us with a record of holidays taken/requested for 2017. not much further we can advise.

My guess is your annual holiday entitlement is pro rata per a cal year and you have reserved more holidays than remain to New Year's Eve.

You may not be allowed to make up missing hours which the Co may deduct from the next Salary payment.

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how much too much do they say you have taken? If we know this we can then calculate how they have determined your holiday entitlement.

Both you and them are entitled to make mistakes and correct them where possible and whne they say you have to make the time up they dont mean in the first week of Jan, it can be spread over the year as long as it is agreed. Another way is to take less holiday this year (not the best way of addressing the problem but practical). Stop getting worked up about it and get the fats and figures so you can offer them a solution rather than just waiting to them to force somehting on you

 

Hello,

 

Who's getting worked up over it? When I say I'm stressed it's not just in relation to this one single thing.

 

I wanted to get some advice so I know where I stand since I've been signed off work sick this week.

This will allow me to be more prepared when I see my manager in January.

 

My manager had a very laxed approach until I couldn't make up the time this week.

She has since asked me to make up the time in the first 3 weeks of next year, which I haven't agreed to.

 

They said I've had 2 days too many.

 

The other question to ask is "what is the holiday year?". Because if it's the anniversary of your start date, you still have three public holidays to go. If it's the financial year (which is common) then you have four more. That might account for yippy having taken more than expected - you haven't included the public holidays?

 

The holidays are done by calendar year.

 

I've taken 18 days including any bank holidays. I'm not affected by bank holidays because I don't work Mondays anyway.

 

Unless you provide us with a record of holidays taken/requested for 2017. not much further we can advise.

My guess is your annual holiday entitlement is pro rata per a cal year and you have reserved more holidays than remain to New Year's Eve.

You may not be allowed to make up missing hours which the Co may deduct from the next Salary payment.

 

I've taken 18 days including all bank holidays.

 

They won't deduct, they're requesting I make up the time in January.

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Hello,

 

Who's getting worked up over it? When I say I'm stressed it's not just in relation to this one single thing. Well you said you were getting worked up over it! And not being mind readers, when you say that the prospect of working an extra day a week is stressing you out, and that this incident has caused you to be off sick from work, we are apt to assume that you are telling us facts. So what toy are saying is that this issue is one of several contributing to your current poor health, and is not responsible for you being off sick? Because that was not the impression that you gave in the original post.

 

I wanted to get some advice so I know where I stand since I've been signed off work sick this week. This will allow me to be more prepared when I see my manager in January.

 

My manager had a very laxed approach until I couldn't make up the time this week. She has since asked me to make up the time in the first 3 weeks of next year, which I haven't agreed to. You are just as responsible for your manager for knowing exactly what leave you should be taking, and for finding solutions to this issue. If you have taken too much leave, one way or another you will be repaying it, and it doesn't require you to agree. It seems to me that she is giving you an opportunity to make it up before she takes the other option - and deducts it from your pay, which will leave you working for a week for no pay.

 

They said I've had 2 days too many.

 

Ericsbrother was trying to help you and didn't deserve to have his head bitten off for taking you at your word.

We all do this for free in our spare time (and who has spare time?).

 

I suspect I know how you made the error, albeit you need to ask your manager to calculate it.

You assumed that bank holidays don't affect you because you don't work them.

They do affect you.

They affect everyone.

Whether you happen to be working that day or not.

 

You said that your holiday entitlement "includes public holidays".

So any calculation of your years leave entitlement needs to take account of public holidays proportionately to your working hours.

 

Now when you return to work it is entirely reasonable to ask to be shown their calculations for your leave and checking them.

If you then do owe them leave, you need to repay it.

 

So you can work a few extra days.

Or it can be deducted from your salary.

Or, and I want to make this very clear to you, it can be deducted from your final salary,

because you have no employment protection at this stage,

and if you continue to make this difficult for them, they will simply dismiss you.

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So now we have more information about the time owed and what your manager wanted.

Being off sick at the time they wanted you to use to correct this error means it will be dragged out into the next holiday year, something that it looks like they wanted to avoid.

 

So, I repeat, be proactive and offer them something

- how about an extra day in Jan and another in Feb?

 

If you really cant do that then what about an extra 2 hours a week for the next 2 months.

You could start early,

have a reduced lunch break if you take an hour and the do an extra half an hour at the end of the working day.

Spread that over your 3 working days and it doesnt cut into the rest of your life.

 

It doesnt matter what you offer as long as you can offer them something that clears this up well before easter (when next bank holiday comes) as long as it is substantial enough to be seen to be implemented when you do it and that you offer them something rather than just waiting for them to tell you that you are working thursdays and if you dont then you neednt bother returning to work.

 

Show a bit of gumption and flexibility and you will find your employers are a little more flexible as well and it is no longer a problem to them.

I suspect that they arent that bothered about the lost time

but dont want to let others wag their tongues so need to be seen to be doing something.

That is why you should make them an offer, looks good all round.

Edited by honeybee13
Paras
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I suspect I know how you made the error, albeit you need to ask your manager to calculate it.

You assumed that bank holidays don't affect you because you don't work them.

They do affect you.

They affect everyone.

Whether you happen to be working that day or not.

 

You said that your holiday entitlement "includes public holidays".

So any calculation of your years leave entitlement needs to take account of public holidays proportionately to your working hours.

 

Now when you return to work it is entirely reasonable to ask to be shown their calculations for your leave and checking them.

If you then do owe them leave, you need to repay it.

 

 

 

sangie - out of curiosity (and it may help the OP better understand their position) can you or anybody else here explain exactly how Bank Holidays are taken account of in holiday entitlement when you work part time and don't work Mondays?

 

 

Thanks

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It is straightforward. Employers are supposed to ensure all staff are treated equally, whether they are full time or part time and whether they work any bank holidays or not.

 

So the employer just works out the full time normal holidays + bank holidays entitlement in hours. This might be say based on a Mon to friday 7 hours per day i.e 35 hours a week. The normal holiday entiltlement is say 23 days x 7 hours = 161 hours + say 10 bank holidays x 7 hours = total entitlement 231 hours.

 

Now it then depends on whether part time hours are a fixed contract arrangement or not.

 

If part time hours are flexible someone working say 17.5 hours a week would be entitled to 115.5 hours holiday including bank holidays. If they were scheduled to work 4 hours on a bank holiday monday they would have to book 4 hours holiday. This is unlikely because work schedules are normally agreed in advance and holidays are unlikely to be agreed.

 

If the hours were fixed by contract, then the employee would have to book whatever hours holidays required to cover the hours they were contracted to work.

 

If an employee is part time never working a bank holiday then for the days they normally work Tues, weds etc they are are still having to book holiday out of their total entitlement. If say for example a brand new bank holiday was created by government for a major event on a Wednesday when an employee worked, then if that day was given as extra entitlement, they would only get entitlement for their part time hours. If the business was open, then they would book holiday for the hours required, based on their revised pro-rata entitlement.

 

Remember that holidays + bank holidays is paid entitlement, so important everyone is treated the same, irrespective of normal working days/hours.

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some companies pay all staff for the bank holidays and take these days as being part of their annual leave entitlement.

 

Now I would suspect that the OP has taken her entitlement and forgotten to save a couple of days for christmas/new year coming up and will owe them the time/money as they will have done the salary run for december early and that has caused the "debt".

 

Simple error and no doubt manager missed it as well until the dates loomed closer.

so needed to sort ther matter out to avoid it causing problems in next month's salary run.

 

Might be wrong about this

but it is the most logical explanation as to why it has suddenly reared its head.

 

Where my wife works they have a number of staff who work different hours each day

some dont work mondays etc

 

it was set just over a year ago that all bank holidays are paid as a days's pay

then some people "owed" a number of hours as their initial contacts specified the number of days holiday in a year that didnt include bank holidays.

 

My wife theoretically takes her 25 days plus bank holidays

but owes 3 hours as she works half an hour less on mondays than other days.

 

It all works out as the correct number of hours in a year but does rather complicate things just to make one person happy.

Edited by honeybee13
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It is straightforward. Employers are supposed to ensure all staff are treated equally, whether they are full time or part time and whether they work any bank holidays or not.

 

So the employer just works out the full time normal holidays + bank holidays entitlement in hours. This might be say based on a Mon to friday 7 hours per day i.e 35 hours a week. The normal holiday entiltlement is say 23 days x 7 hours = 161 hours + say 10 bank holidays x 7 hours = total entitlement 231 hours.

 

Now it then depends on whether part time hours are a fixed contract arrangement or not.

 

If part time hours are flexible someone working say 17.5 hours a week would be entitled to 115.5 hours holiday including bank holidays. If they were scheduled to work 4 hours on a bank holiday monday they would have to book 4 hours holiday. This is unlikely because work schedules are normally agreed in advance and holidays are unlikely to be agreed.

 

If the hours were fixed by contract, then the employee would have to book whatever hours holidays required to cover the hours they were contracted to work.

 

If an employee is part time never working a bank holiday then for the days they normally work Tues, weds etc they are are still having to book holiday out of their total entitlement. If say for example a brand new bank holiday was created by government for a major event on a Wednesday when an employee worked, then if that day was given as extra entitlement, they would only get entitlement for their part time hours. If the business was open, then they would book holiday for the hours required, based on their revised pro-rata entitlement.

 

Remember that holidays + bank holidays is paid entitlement, so important everyone is treated the same, irrespective of normal working days/hours.

 

 

 

 

Cheers Womble - I'm off now to a Carol service but will read what you've said. When I left the NHS we calculated annual leave in hours (so much easier for part-timers). My wife has moved from FT to PT and does not work Mondays (like OP).

 

 

I think the issue is that for FT workers their contractual holiday entitlement includes Bank Holidays, but for PT workers who do not work Mondays (when several BHs occur) how exactly is their entitlement calculated? Are the BHs subtracted from their allowance or not? I'm probably mistaken but I don't understand how it works.

 

 

It seems strange to me that an employee can use up their holiday entitlement on days that they wouldn't work anyway. (Which seems to me to be what sangie is suggesting).

 

 

It all seems needlessly complicated to me. The legislation ought to say that if you are FT you have so much holiday entitlement, if you are PT, then it's pro-rarat. Talk about BHs is unneccesarily muddying the waters.

 

 

ETA: What I'm trying to say (perhaps not clearly) is the question: how can you use holiday entitlement (eg BHs on days that you don't work anyway? Would PT workers be better advised to work on Mondays rather that say Fridays?.

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Hello again.

 

My OH works three days a week and seems to have a good understanding of how holidays work. Are you saying that one of your three working days is a Monday please?

 

OH doesn't work Mondays fwiw, but he's learned how to work out holidays entitlements having dealt with this for a few years.

 

HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Hello again.

 

My OH works three days a week and seems to have a good understanding of how holidays work. Are you saying that one of your three working days is a Monday please?

 

OH doesn't work Mondays fwiw, but he's learned how to work out holidays entitlements having dealt with this for a few years.

 

HB

 

No one should gain time off or paid holiday by not workng a Monday or Friday Bank Holiday. Otherwise few part time people would want to work Mondays or Good Friday.

 

What Sangie is saying is that some companies might not be open on bank holidays and they therefore deduct the relevant hours from everyone. This means that whatever hours you work say 7 hours full time of 3.5 hours part time, that is deducted from total holiday entitlement including BH hours. The staff then get this holiday as paid holiday time.

 

I repeat, people need to remember this is paid holiday time. You get your contract holiday hours pay, plus bank holiday hours pay, both of which will be pro-rata for part timers.

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There are 8 Bank Holidays per year in E & W, and not all fall on a Mon.

There is a Holiday Entitlement Calculator on the Gov.UK website.

The Co can move Stat. Holidays slightly, to maintain max working days in any one week.

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No one should gain time off or paid holiday by not workng a Monday or Friday Bank Holiday. Otherwise few part time people would want to work Mondays or Good Friday.

 

What Sangie is saying is that some companies might not be open on bank holidays and they therefore deduct the relevant hours from everyone. This means that whatever hours you work say 7 hours full time of 3.5 hours part time, that is deducted from total holiday entitlement including BH hours. The staff then get this holiday as paid holiday time.

 

I repeat, people need to remember this is paid holiday time. You get your contract holiday hours pay, plus bank holiday hours pay, both of which will be pro-rata for part timers.

 

 

Sorry - I'm not trying to derail this thread (apologies honeybee!) but I am trying to understand this for my benefit and hopefully the OP's.

 

 

Para 1: If I were working two days per week, I think I would rather be working Mondays and Fridays as that would give me more paid holidays(?) than working say Tuesday and Wednesday. You seem to be saying the opposite, and this is the bit I find really confusing (and perhaps OP does too).

 

 

Para 2: Yes, but what if you work in a sector where staff do routinely work on BHs (eg NHS)? If you don't work on Mondays and Fridays how is the BH part of your holiday entitlement accounted for? (Mondays and Fridays taking up at least half of BHs - more when Christmas day and New Years day fall on a Monday or Friday).

 

 

This whole area seems unnecessarily complicated to me. (Perhaps I'm being stupid).

 

 

When I started work in the NHS you had a holiday entitlement and BHs were outside that - they were taken for granted. If you had to work on a BH that was dealt with separately under T&Cs. (Edit: and if you didn't work Mondays or Fridays, it didn't affect your holiday entitlement re BHs because you weren't working those days anyway).

Edited by Manxman in exile
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This in reply to mariner51's post #23.

 

 

Looking at the first google hit there, from Nottingham university:

 

 

"Previously, part-time staff who worked, for example, on Mondays would have benefited from taking off all Bank Holidays falling on Mondays, and therefore may have taken off more days than someone who did not work on Monday. By calculating pro rata entitlements, all staff are able to take off their pro rata entitlement whatever days of the week they work."

OK - that makes sense, although it seems unfortunate that it takes a five page document to explain how to work this out.

Looking at the .gov website, I think what has confused me (and probably many others) is the question of whether BHs are included as part of your holiday entitlement or not. It all seems unnecessarily complicated to me (coming from the public sector as opposed to the private).

Apologies if I've wasted posters' time, but perhaps it may help the OP too.

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