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Natwest Loan that isnt a loan - How much to claim-sorry, a bit long

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In November 2005 I was called into my bank for a “financial review”.

At that time, I did not realise it was going to be a hard sell of bank products.

I was sold a £20k loan.

When the time arrived to sign the paperwork, the local printer couldn’t produce it – I guess an IT issue.

 

They managed to get part or maybe all the first page printed (on screen it had many pages), which I was asked to sign or initial

– I don’t remember what, in the footer area of the page.

 

The £20k was deposited into my account the same/next day.

 

I was advised a full agreement would be sent to me which I had to sign and return to the bank.

 

That full agreement never arrived, despite me asking for it many times (I can prove).

 

Contacting the bank was getting nowhere,

so on advice of a Solicitor/Barrister I stopped making repayments in May 2009.

The bank did then contact me.

 

They said over the phone (I have a recording) if I resumed re-payments they would supply a copy of the agreement.

I resumed re-payments, they did not supply the agreement and eventually agreed they did not have a copy of the agreement and could not produce a “re-constituted” agreement.

 

Hence in Sept 2009 I stopped making re-payments again.

The bank took 2 payments under “set-off” rules in June and July 2011.

Amount outstanding according to bank is around £12k

 

In November 2012 the bank put a default notice on my credit file.

That did as intended and really fouled up my life.

 

I spoke with the bank and they offered to remove the default,

but I would need to repay the original loan (fair) interest for all the loan duration

(not fair, duration/interest rate unknown as no agreement)

and interest at 8% on the entire outstanding balance.

I said “in your dreams”.

 

I have engaged a few legal firms over the years to try and resolve this, total costs to date are around £20k.

I am advised it could easily cost over £150k to continue.

 

However, I see this as a simple problem.

 

Bank don’t have copy of agreement (legally execute or otherwise).

They have put a default notice on my credit file,

in my view without any evidence I have defaulted

– I don’t know the terms any more than the bank does.

 

I feel I could issue a summons (pre-action protocol letter previously sent by solicitor) requesting removal of default notice.

If successful, I would ask for compensation and my legal costs to date.

 

Problem if I keep the quantum claimed under £10k (about 50% of my legal costs to date) if I am not successful,

I can’t be hit by banks legal costs.

 

If I issue for more than £10k I could have a large bank legal costs bill if I am not successful.

My inclination is to go for more than £10k and take the risk,

question is how much?

Any other views considered.

 

I did try the FoS – seems to be a waste of time in my view.

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Which bank is this?

 

Presumably this is a loan which is regulated under the Consumer Credit Act – yes?

 

It seems to me that there is an element of bad faith here.

 

Are you able to tell us anything about the arguments which your firm of solicitors have attempted to use.

 

Have you been to the ombudsman?


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NatWest (or RBS, as the parent)

 

Yes under the consumer credit act.

 

The bank will not engage in meaningful communications, with me or solicitor. Hence nothing really useful to add.

 

FoS - Yes, I did say they were a waste of time (they don't look at legal arguments (no agreement) and I had to repay all the loan with additional 8% interest as bank stated.

 

Thank you for a very prompt reply.

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Nov 2012 - Nov 2018 - My view is the default will fall off your CRA in Nov 2018

Id personally give up on this. If they attempt to sell to a DCA then send a CCA Request and see what comes back :)

I dont think anything will come back if RBS cant find the bleeding thing...

 

Some may disagree with me... But if you keep throwing money down the drain on this one with Legal firms then the only person losing out is you.

 

This is the main crux of your argument i can see - Also have a read https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=69469


 

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Yes, the default will fall off in Nov 2018.

Problem is I want to engage in a mortgage before then

- it will be stopped by the default.

 

Hence I want to start litigation to at least remove default

- compensation is more a secondary matter.

 

I was aiming to issue myself (LIP), as you say too much money has been spent on legal firms so-far.

 

I have speed read the link you gave.

 

It is not correct in that data is held for 6 while the account is open and 6 years after it has been closed.

 

Have just agreed with the ICO and Experian have removed transaction data older than 6years.

 

I am still considering address information being held longer than 6 years.

 

Thank you for your view.

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so as the bank helped themselves

that does not reset the statute barred clock

so its statute barred atleast now.

 

I would argue that the default should nave been place much much earlier

thus under the 6yrs rule the debt would now not show.

 

rather than keep kicking the bank whereby they'll kick back

and throw £1000's more money down the drain on silly court cases.....

or useless solicitors or barristers that will get you no-where....

 

why don't you simply write to the bank and ask them nicely if they'll place the default at the correct date.

 

sadly they don't need an agreement to default you, that's a totally separate issue and whomever told you that was simply after your money which it looks like they've already got in their fees.

 

dx


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

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I don't think its statue barred. The last major action was in Nov 2012 (default with CRA's) which I discovered in 2013. It will be statue barred in Nov 2018.

 

I am not aware of a precedent for when they record a default, so long as they can prove it - which I think they will struggle with.

 

3 solicitors and myself have attempted communications. All to no avail. The last solicitors letter was pre action protocol. It took 4 months to get a reply - that only acknowledged receipt and any action would be vigorously defended.

 

Nobody told me they need an agreement to default me. However, if challenged they do need proof of the debt - which they don't have.

 

Seems nobody knows typical damages, so I will just have a best guess and then reduce it a bit.

 

Thanks for comments everyone.

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statute barring runs from the last payment YOU made.

 

sorry but I think you are doing a wrong 'en.

they already have their proof, you got the money.


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

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Do you have a reference for barring running from last payment?

I could see an argument every time bank report it to CRA's that resets the limitation clock?

 

Never denied I had the money - but on what terms? Thats the problem.

Nobody knows interest rate, duration and I even have doubts over the amount requested verses deposited, and hence repayment quantum.

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and you don't already know that?

 

statute of limitations cause of action...

1000's of threads here on it.

 

its really immaterial under what terms the money was lent with regard to what you are dreaming you can achieve, the removal of a default.

 

why you've bone down the route you've done, heavens knows ..

 

all you simply needed to do was get proof

p'haps via sending them an sar for the statements

looking for about your third missed payment [about july 2009?]

 

the third missed payment being at that time the typical default notice issuance date under the old ICO guidelines.

and get them to report it correctly.

 

never heard of a bank that wont.


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

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The purpose of litigation is

A)[most important] to remove the default (which you feel is a simple case of obtaining a SAR and point to the ICO rules) and

B) damages for loss of ability to obtain credit.

 

It was damages I was asking about, over and above the disputed £12k ish (we couldn't agree exact amount about 5 years ago).

 

The link given clearly states "The six years runs from the "The cause of action" and the terms and conditions of the contract/agreement will have a bearing on this" As the terms of the contract are not known, this cold be a unproductive route, potentially getting nowhere.

 

I will run your method and mine in parallel, nothing to stop that at the present time. It will take me time to work out damages.

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its a loan it has to abide by the consumer credit act re section 87 default notices nothing to do with contacts or T&C's

they only come into play if it were an OD or mobile phone contract

 

I cant see where you have any recourse through any court on anything other than the incorrect registering of a default some 2.5yrs late

and we've never seen one of those succeed

 

I cant see you getting any damages solely because of that.

and I cant see any other damages you've suffered .

 

you've already wasted £20k when it could probably been sorted by the method I've already outlined rather than playing the ive got a bigger stick than you method which never ever wins against banks.


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

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Section 87 - they don't comply.

I never signed in a signature box, being just one of many errors.

I guess the document I should have signed would have T&C's within?

As I have never seen the document, I don't really know.

 

Lets hope your method of removing the default as its beyond limitation works. That will be a big plus.

 

As for damages,

the bank default is the only default on my credit file, from around 15 credit entries.

 

My credit card has a 50%APR (approx) compared to the usual 15-18%APR.

The additional interest I am paying is a loss.

 

Tell me why I can't claim for that loss.

Its similar for other credit.

 

Also special terms imposed on my mortgage, mobile phone etc,

as well as being refused another mortgage (lender agrees it was affordable).

Numerous others, some in my business.

 

I agree you never win a "my stick is bigger than yours argument" with banks. They have near limitless pocket depth. That road was taken by Solicitors/Barristers who were advising me - 1 of them was a banking specialist solicitor/barrister team. All agreed this was the best route (for who, I hear you ask!)

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no the registering of a default is nothing to do with the limitations period, that's the statute barred date..

 

I would suggest that going by your 1st post

that what you signed WAS the consumer credit agreement for the loan...

you don't have to sign T&C's

 

the default was registered some 2.5yrs late

that would be your reason to seek compensation but if its strong enouh one to issue a court claim for compo

i'd be awaiting them admitting it was registered late and moving it

else you've no proof of their wrong doing if you jump to court now

for the issues this caused you related to the above.

 

slowly slowly catchy monkey.

but do it the right way.

 

it really surprises me that these barristers/solicitors didn't recommend an SAR to force them to produce their documentation before wasting that £20k...

 

if they fail that [they have 40 days] failure to comply IS a reason to get them into court its a legal document to be complied with.

 

I would suspect that that failure might be your court route, then introduce the compo claim.

 

but lets see.


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

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I understand to have "signed" the consumer credit agreement you must sign in a box (among other things), clearly indicating you are signing an enforceable agreement.

I did not.

 

I signed or initialed in the footer area of a single page of a multi page document, the branch printer could not produce the other pages.

Hence, no correctly executed CCA exists.

 

I was told at the time I would be sent a copy in the post to sign and return to the bank, within 2 weeks.

As it never arrived, I started to chase when I would receive it - to no avail.

 

I wanted to know what I had agreed to.

When the bank statements started to arrive I noticed the re-payments were around £300pcm,

I was under the impression they would be around £200pcm

- had no agreement to prove this, but it gave me another reason to chase the bank.

 

After many years, the bank agreed they did not have a copy of the CCA.

 

The bank eventually agreed they could not produce a re-constituted CCA.

Hence they were not able to instigate proceedings against me for the alleged debt.

All solicitors have advised the bank will not negotiate with them.

Hence, I will have to litigate against them.

 

I have sent a SAR today, they should receive it on 7 Nov - I will check, sent recorded.

About 18-20 Dec I will issue against bank (I don't think they will comply, but would be pleased if they do)

 

for either:

 

a) non compliance - your method, as I don't think the bank will comply.

Point out they have recorded the default late against ICO guidance.

Date extract below.

Bank should have issued default around November 2009, not November 2012, agreed?

or

b) issue requesting removal of default notice or prove I have defaulted.

Without any documentation, I don't think they can prove it.

 

I accept a loan was made, just don't know on what terms.

If successful I would ask for compensation and costs.

 

02/03/2009 £297.26 Normal payment.

01/04/2009 £297.26 Normal payment.

01/05/2009 £297.26 Normal payment.

June/July 2009 in discussion with bank. They agreed to provide copy of agreement if I resumed re-payments.

03/08/2009 £297.26 Payments resumed as per above.

After Sept 2009 no payments made as bank reneged on proving copy agreement.

01/06/2011 £297.26 Bank took payment under set-off rules

01/07/2011 £297.26 Bank took payment under set-off rules

No further payments made.

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have you written evidence from the bank clearly stating they do not hold a signed agreement nor are able to even produce enough evidence to rely upon a reconstructed agreement?

[which surprises me, as although it was taken out in 2005 and thus a recon is not applicable, I would of expected some form of an attempt at it as that would cover them in regard to be allowed to register a default notice all be it late]

 

this leads me to think are quite confident they do have enough evidence to produce a reconstructed agreement , but have never formally been sent a CCA request with the required Fee under the Act to be forced to produce it ?

 

we need to know what cards they do hold ... there could possibly be a different route altogether developing here, one of it not being executed properly and thus void under the ACt.

 

but how valid your compo claim sits eitherway is a difficult one to fathom out.

 

if it were subsequently proved void then all your payments would be returned and the 'goods' would be yours, so would far outweigh your compo claim.

 

or if not, and it's proved properly executed, then should the default be corrected, what gates does this actually open for you?

they might not admit the mistake, but take the route of it being GOGW which removes them from any subsequent 'blame' in terms of damage toward credit worthiness etc

but does achieve your major want of the defaults removal to enable a mortgage.

 

I think only time will tell.

 

dx


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

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Short answers;

28 May 2009 Unable to provide a copy agreement under a CCA section 77 request.

17 Jan 2013 Insufficient evidence for a reconstructed agreement, hence not possible to issue against me.

Before 28 May 2009 for the formal CCA request. Reply dated 28 May 2009.

I haven't seen any good will from this bank. They must have a duty of care.

 

I appreciate your work, but please remember the primary aim is to remove the default - compensation, while nice, is a secondary aim.

 

long answers;

 

28th April 2003. I opened a business and personal account with bank. Normal trading.

 

9th ?? Nov 2005 – called in for “financial review”.

 

Thursday 10th Nov 2005 £20k loan deposited in my personal current account.

 

1st Dec 2005. First repayment shown on personal bank statement.

 

6th August 2007 – written notification they were unable to locate a copy of the original agreement.

 

Sept 2008. I have a screen shot of personal loan interest rate as 8.4%

 

28 May 2009 – Barrister requested copy of Consumer Credit agreement section 77 request. Bank unable to locate agreement, but gave loan principal as £20k and interest rate as 6.7%, and implied the duration of loan as 7years (no actual duration given). Outstanding balance £12, 484.92. Advised I was still liable for the loan and if I stopped paying it would be reported to CRA’s.

 

5th April 2011. I advised bank they did not have an executed agreement and failed to see how they could legitimately inform CRA’s without evidence.

 

21st April 2011. Bank asked me to send them copy of banks letter dated 6th August 2007 and 28th May 2009. I complied.

 

2nd Nov 2011. The bank advised it would be ceasing to provide me with bank facilities for either my business or personal accounts.

 

Loan statement (they still send them) for period Nov 2013 to Nov 2014 advised the interest rate is 6.52%

 

9th Jan 2012 letter from bank advising arrears of £8, 620.54.

10th Jan 2012 letter from bank demanding immediate repayment of £20, 213.68.

 

20th Jan 2012 letter from bank advised outstanding balance as £11, 593.14

 

17th Jan 2013 letter from bank acknowledges the loan is unenforceable through the courts, stated the debt is still valid and should be re-paid. They requested my financial circumstances (income/expenditure), I did not provide. If I did not provide the requested information they could pass debt to external debt collection agencies.

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so await the sar and then as the bottom part of post 10 then


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

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When (or if in my view) I get a reply to the SAR I will post it here.

Thank you for your help so far.

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Received a voicemail to my mobile today, requesting I contact the bank (number given) about the SAR.

 

I deliberately did not put any phone number on the SAR, so they have obtained it from old records - the land line number has changed. I feel it is of no benefit to me to call them. They should reply by post so I have a written record, if they want more information.

 

Question is, am I being too belligerent? I guess we will have to talk sometime.

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They have 40 days to respond...not sure why they are ringing you to discuss it.....but if it speeds up the process.....ring them on your landline and withhold number.

 

Andy


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I phoned them today.

They are saying they can't comply as its too much information and in any event they only keep files for 6 years.

They asked what particular information I wanted.

I advised it was to do with potential litigation and referred them to the pre action protocol letter sent 2 November 2016, and the bank replied on 21 Dec 2016.

 

They advised I would need to provide the exact date/time of any phone call for them to find the recording of it.

They did not routinely record calls and this call was not being recorded.

I advised I was recording it, so that was not true.

 

Long discussion with bank advising I was acting illegal by recording and not advising at the start of call.

I explained the last time I looked at the law so long as at least one party knew the call was being recorded that was fine.

If neither party knew it was being recorded it required a court order signed by the home secretary to record it. No real agreement.

 

Overall, they want to limit the amount of work they have to do.

I stated the SAR was for all files,

I suggested they provide that.

 

If they introduced a file into litigation that was not in the documents given in response to the SAR, I would call foul.

 

We did make contact, but not much else was achieved.

My recording of the call is very poor quality and difficult to hear.

Must do better next time!

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Possible grounds to report them to the ICO for none compliance if they wish to pick and choose which parts of the DPA they wish to comply with.


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PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

 Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group The National Consumer Service

 

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Hi,

 

The 40 days for the SAR expires on 17 Dec.

 

They haven't complied yet and assuming they don't comply,

around 20 Dec I would like to issue proceedings in court for non compliance

- as per end of post 14.

 

I like the court route

- limitation is less than 1 year away,

and it stops the clock ticking.

 

Questions:

Do I issue in the County or other Court?

How do I issue (I know about MCOL, but thats a money claim. Here its a non compliance with a legal document/request.).

 

Please remember my main objective is to remove the default, compensation is a secondary, but useful, issue.

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ICO is next port of call not court.

 

you'd have to give a 14 day LBA anyway.

 

all you need is the statements to prove when the third missed payment was

then ask them to revise the defaulted date.


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

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