Cabot/Shoos SPC claim - old Lloyds TSB loan ** WON granted decree of absolvitor + costs**

[dx100uk]

and?

[fuzzel]

HI,

 

sorry, for some reason I didn't get an email notifying of these last two posts.

 

I sent in my response to the claim on 13th August and also sent a CCA request that same day to Shoos via recorded delivery.

 

I started receiving texts from cabot asking me to call them today (presumably because I gave my number on the response form).

Am I right in thinking it's best to ignore them?

 

I had thought they may be calling to discuss the claim since the simple procedure rules encourage that, but the two texts they sent had different reference numbers, whatever that might indicate.

Perhaps they want to discuss another debt(s).

I have ignored them until you guys suggest otherwise.

 

@aesmith, in terms of payments I may have made to this debt, be it to cabot or credit1 I honestly can't say.

 

I know that sounds odd, but I got myself into a lot of debt when I was younger, some of which I paid off, some I default on and were written off, others I entered payment plans with DCRs.

 

At one point I had several agreements to pay small amounts towards several different debts and with various DCRs.

 

The debt they seem to be trying to claim for could be one of 3/4 loans I had with Lloyds and I have no way of knowing whether I made any payments specific to this particular debt to a DCR after default.

 

What i did receive was a notice from Lloyds at the time saying they had written off the debt. Whether a DCR picked it up later and I made payments, I can't be 100% sure.

 

It is possible that I made payments as recently as 2013/2014 but I can't be sure and I no longer have the current account from which payments would have been made.

 

I'm currently waiting to hear from the court having lodged my response, aswell as Cabot in relation to the CCA request. It's possible they are texting me to call them in relation to the CCA, but I suppose there's nothing they can't do in writing so why contact them?

 

What I am sure of is that I haven't made payments to Lloyds themselves since the default and that the company they say they sold the debt to in 2013 is not Cabot or Credit1, as per my recent discussion with Lloyds.

Edited August 20, 2018 by dx100uk
spacing

[aesmith]

What I am sure of is that I haven't made payments to Lloyds themselves since the default and that the company they say they sold the debt to in 2013 is not Cabot or Credit1, as per my recent discussion with Lloyds.

I guess if you included Statute Barred in your defence, and gave some plausible reason why that might be the case, it would be up to the pursuer to show otherwise.

[dx100uk]

where did we say send a CCA request to a solicitor?

no you don't talk on the phone

[fuzzel]

I guess if you included Statute Barred in your defence, and gave some plausible reason why that might be the case, it would be up to the pursuer to show otherwise.

 

I didn't include the statute barred argument in my response as DX suggested leaving it out for now.

 

where did we say send a CCA request to a solicitor?

no you don't talk on the phone

 

The CCA instructions on site say it should be sent to the owner of the debt, but currently I don't know for sure who that is, only that it's no longer LLoyds (and possibly the DCR they sold it to in 2013).

 

Since Cabot are claiming to own it via assignation from credit1 I thought it best to send it to them as I thought that for defending the case it matters whether or not they have the agreement since they're the ones suing me and if they don't have it they can't enforce their claim.

 

Since they're now legally represented my understanding was that I should send it to their agents rather than them, as I did with the response copy.

 

Are you thinking that was a mistake, sending the CCA to them?

[dx100uk]

well post up your response form please so we know what you said please

 

whats a DCR, do you mean DCA?

 

why cant you sar the bank yo had the account with and get all the payment details?

 

the cca should have gone to the claimant but not to worry now.

[fuzzel]

Ah ok, I just assumed Shoos would pass it on to them and be more likely to ensure they comply with the order (the postal order was made out to Cabot though since they're the ones who have to comply with the order).

[fuzzel]

I've received the "Order of the sheriff" from the court confirming that the case management discussion will be held on 29th August 2018 ( a week today).

 

As you probably already know this but it says

 

"The claimant and the respondent are encouraged to contact each other to seek to settle the case or narrow the issues in dispute, before the case management discussion", with the words "encouraged" and "before" in bold.

It also says that the parties are "ordered" (again in bold) to bring documents and other evidence to the hearing.

 

How do you think I should proceed at this stage?

Cabot have been trying to contact me but I have thus far rejected their calls and texts.

I don't want to talk to them obviously but with the instruction from the sheriff being pretty clear, I also don't want to go against it but not speaking to Cabot when they are trying to contact me, for fear of getting on the Sheriff's wrong side off the bat.

 

I thought perhaps I could contact them and confirm nothing other than the reference they gave me and no more details than are already on the response form, only to tell them that they can contact me via email if they want to contact me to discuss the case.

Or,

is it best to say nothing and just explain to the sheriff that I didn't want to speak to them outwith his presence for fear of being bullied into giving information that would help make their case?

 

What experience do you guys have of these hearings and what's expected from the respondent?

Rule 8 does say that he can award for the claimant if I didn't follow his order, though I assume that won't happen just because I didn't want to contact the claimaint outwith court?

 

As always I'll follow your advice of course and thanks for your help so far with this.

 

Also, while I'm happy to appear myself at the hearing (as much as I'd rather not as I live in a small area where everyone knows everyone), is it worth getting advice from a solicitor beforehand to get a feel for how this particualr sheriff would respond to me not making efforts to discuss with the claimant (he's the only sheriff at this small sheriff court I think, so will be known to local solicitors).

 

Cheers.

Edited August 22, 2018 by dx100uk
spacing

[dx100uk]

unless you are doing it whilst not logged in

you appear not to have read ANY like threads in this Scotland forum regarding other cases??

cag is self help too!

 

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?483418-MEIII-CABOT-Nolans-SPC-Claim-old-Yorkshire-Bank-Loan-***-2nd-Claim-Dismissed***

is a good one.

 

the sheriffs orders are a std letter

you wont be asked such pertinent questions

you have nothing to discuss as they have provided NO paperwork to date?

 

you don't need a sols most are totally useless at CCA stuff anyway and typically, going by threads here where they have been used or consulted get it WRONG to the detriment of the consumer.

 

its only a CMD

there are only 2 things that can happen

 

1. the sheriff dismisses the case

2. ordes the claimant to get their finger out by xxx date.

if they fail that the MINUTE they exceed the deadline you phone the sheriffs clerk and tell them so.

 

read tha thread and a few others then comeback with anything more you don't understand

 

you NEVER EVER speak on the phone to the fleecers or their dogs, nor respond in anyway to anyone without checking here first.

 

also read the first few lines of the response you sent back.

that explains what they/sheriff must do in the CMD or any hearing.

 

We still also need to see your response form please

One multipage pdf only

Read upload

[fuzzel]

OK thanks, I'll do that, the link might be one I've seen already.

I have been self-helping, honest!

 

I looked through the links you gave (including the rules), plus some Cabot cases I read through myself, of which only a couple seemed relevant at the time.

I revisited the rules this afternoon before posting.

 

I have 16 tabs saved in a "CAG" folder on chrome for this dispute, with all or most of the relevant pages you linked plus noddle home page etc, so each time I'm doing anything with it I just open up all the tabs (including reading the rules etc) so I won't have been logged in a lot of the time when I was reading those as I only have to log in to read replies.

 

NO paperwork has been provided to date, though the CCA request was only sent on 13th August so the 28th will be the deadline as I paid for next day recorded delivery.

 

They said in the claim that they have the agreement etc to produce but it does seem like the whole thing is a fishing expedition so maybe they have nothing.

 

Unless it's a different debt to the one I think they might be pursuing, they are saying it was assigned to them before the OC even sold it.

 

I need to see the documents to have a clue what they are talking about, let alone whether their claim is valid.

 

I'll go and read through that link.

 

I'll get the response uploaded aswell, probably tomorrow morning as my wife is home now and I haven't told her about this yet.

 

Looks like I'll have to now though as I'll be leaving the house in a suit for that hearing next week

[dx100uk]

do they not give an account number on the 3a form [sPC claim]?

[fuzzel]

They did yes, but I've never had a loan account with that number. (I'll PM you).

 

The account number they referred to is an old current account number that I had with LLoyds

- so not a loan account number as they say it is.

 

The current account was closed on 25th November 2007 and according to the guy on the phone at LLoyds, no debt was sold in relation to that current account number (eg for an overdraft) just a loan that was sold to Apex in 2013 with a different account number..

[dx100uk]

I cant see any harm in mentioning this at CMD further puts doubt upon the fact they haven't a clue what they are litigating over.

[fuzzel]

So specify that the account number is actually an old current account number? With Lloyds? My response (which I'll post up in the morning) currently just says that I've never had a loan with the account number they mention.

[dx100uk]

that's perfect.

 

say if the need arises - that you have recently discovered from Lloyds that the number the claimant quotes is in-fact a BANK ACCOUNT and that even IF cabot wee litigating upon said account [And not a LOAN as they state in the 3A form [the claimform} ] there was never any Over draft facility anyhow.

 

muppets!! I can see this being dismissed at the CMD to be honest.

I seriously doubt the sheriff will allow them to change the claim

although there are options available I believe for them too.

 

response form please

upload

[fuzzel]

I'm really sorry DX, for some reason I haven't received any emails notifying me of our posts like I usually do.

 

The only thing is that the account they have mentioned probably did have an overdraft at some point though LLoyds said they don't have a note of the account ever being with their collections team and they haven't ever sold it to anyone. So I assume it had a zero balance when it was closed off by them.

 

Sorry for the late reponse, I was waiting until I could pick up a scanner this morning as the one on my printer doesn't work. It's what I posted up last week, less the bits you told me to leave out. So here goes....

 

Here's my response in PDF format.

 

As you say, if the need arises at the CMD, I'll explain that it's a current account number they are referring to and having spoken to the bank where I held the account, they confirmed that the account was not with their collections department when it was closed and was never sold on. Does that sound ok?

 

I don't want to mention that the bank is Lloyds if I can help it as I suspect they may not even know that themselves and just bought it from credit1 who bought from another DCR and so on down the chain.

 

If they had the original CCA agreement, you'd think they would have known it relates to LLoyds and at least mentioned them in the claim.

 

I've told my wife all about the claim now.

She's a bit of a worrier which is why I was trying to avoid telling her about it until now, but at least now I can get things done more quickly with not having to wait until she's out before pulling up CAG pages on the PC

 

I'm also hoping that as it stands the claim will be dismissed at the CMD, even they do try and present the claim again with accurate details and all the necessary documents in their hands.

 

I suppose I'll know a lot more on the day before the hearing when they produce/don't produce documents under the CCA request.

 

I suspect with the deadline being the day before the hearing they'll just present it at the CMD and make their excuses for it being a day late.

CabolResponsePDF.compressed.pdf

[dx100uk]

they cannot produce anything on the day it is not allowed!

 

more later busy

[fuzzel]

Thanks dx and no probs, i wasn't expecting a reply on a Saturday night!

 

Have a good weekend.

[dx100uk]

ok lets break this down:

the claimant states this:

 

The claimants are a finance company which inter alia operates the business of debt purchasing By virtue of a debt purchase agreement ("the agreement") between the claimants and prime Credit 1 s a r l ("the original owner") dated 29/07/2014, - they clearly state here "the original owner" - this needs to be questioned at the hearing - they were the original owners of the debt cabot bought - but were not the original creditor - so you would not only need them produce the notice of assignment from prime Credit 1 s a r l to cabot - you will also need to to demand they produve the NOA from the original creditor to prime Credit 1 s a r l

the claimant acquired title to and was assigned the right to payment in respect of all debts and other monetary claims of any nature due or owing by the respondent to the original owner which were in existence as at the date of the Agreement, and in particular in relation to the contract hereinafter condescended upon - put them to strict prove of what the term "original owner" means.

 

The said assignation was intimated to the respondent by way of written notice on or around 29/07/2014 - where is this notice and can you please have a copy!!

The agreement between the respondent and the original owner upon which this action is based was regulated under the consumer credit Act 1974

Further information in relation to that agreement is contained in section D4, where we set out the sums due and the basis upon which they fell due.

who is the 'original owner' and are they registered as a creditor with the FCA to even issue a Consumer credit Act regulated Agreement under said act?

hope you understand the drift here....

[fuzzel]

Hi dx,

 

for some reason I'm not always receiving email notifications when someone replies (I didn't get one for your reply above). Checked my settings and it is set to email me. Not to worry, I'll just keep checking the CAG tab periodically.

 

Yes I follow what you're saying there. I was intending on highlighting the "original owner" nonsense as you say. It seems like a pathetic attempt to use "original owner" to imply "original creditor" when they may not even know who the OC is. I'll be sure to get those points across and to highlight the need for a chain of NOA to show that the debt has been legally assigned down a chain of DCRs to credit1 before Cabot.

 

Thanks again.

[dx100uk]

well more importantly to scupper the claim totally in IMHO , they haven't a clue what they are litigating over - ridicule the speculative claim, teach them a lesson.

[fuzzel]

Yes it definitely seems that way, nothing more than a fishing expedition.

 

I was wondering, would the claimant be able to ask for a continuation of the hearing, say to allow them time to lodge documents etc?

 

Or will the sheriff be having none of that because they should have complied with the CCA request if they had the necessary documents?

 

Or can they ask time for time to edit their pleadings or are they stuck with them as they are?

 

I take it I can object to any of that if they try it, on the basis that they should have properly prepared their claim before bringing it and should have produced documents on time, especially after saying on the claim for that they had the documents and would produce them if the case was defended.

 

Are there circumstances under which it would be worth asking for decree of absolvitor so they can't bring the case again? Or is it not worth asking and a straight up dismissal the best I can hope for?

[dx100uk]

Yes it definitely seems that way, nothing more than a fishing expedition.

 

I was wondering, would the claimant be able to ask for a continuation of the hearing, say to allow them time to lodge documents etc? up to the sheriff

Or will the sheriff be having none of that because they should have complied with the CCA request if they had the necessary documents? up to the sheriff

 

Or can they ask time for time to edit their pleadings or are they stuck with them as they are? they can ask they be changed as far as I remember in Scotland if the sheriff grants that is another matter!

 

I take it I can object to any of that if they try it, on the basis that they should have properly prepared their claim before bringing it and should have produced documents on time, especially after saying on the claim for that they had the documents and would produce them if the case was defended. yes you object they've had time enough

 

Are there circumstances under which it would be worth asking for decree of absolvitor so they can't bring the case again?

Or is it not worth asking and a straight up dismissal the best I can hope for?

 

 

dismissal means they can try again

decree of absolvitor - yes ask - kills any further claims

[fuzzel]

Thanks, will do.

[fuzzel]

Morning guys. I have the CMD at 11am but yesterday was the last day for Cabot to produce documents under my CCA request. Should I phone the court to advise them of that before the hearing, or just wait until the case calls?