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    • i'm gonna get a 2nd opinion on this and how you should re-order the above.   i really do think that you need to now clearly portray that the supposed belief that a payment was made you've now realised as a false flag.   the main thrust of your defence should be paperwork issues and how important those are to their successful case. then the  charges issue 
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    • Ebay Packlink and Hermes - destroyed item as it was "damaged". https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/430396-ebay-packlink-and-hermes-destroyed-item-as-it-was-damaged/&do=findComment&comment=5087347
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    • Hi @BankFodder
      Sorry for only updating you now, but after your guidance with submitting the claim it was pretty straight forward and I didn't want to unnecessarily waste your time. Especially with this guide you wrote here, so many thanks for that
      So I issued the claim on day 15 and they requested more time to respond.
      They took until the last day to respond and denied the claim, unsurprisingly saying my contract was with Packlink and not with them.
       
      I opted for mediation, and it played out very similarly to other people's experiences.
       
      In the first call I outlined my case, and I referred to the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 as the reason to why I do in fact have a contract with them. 
       
      In the second call the mediator came back with an offer of the full amount of the phone and postage £146.93, but not the court costs. I said I was not willing to accept this and the mediator came across as a bit irritated that I would not accept this and said I should be flexible. I insisted that the law was on my side and I was willing to take them to court. The mediator went back to Hermes with what I said.
       
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      So this is a great win. Thank you so much for your help and all of the resources available on this site. It has helped me so much especially as someone who does not know anything about making money claims.
       
      Many thanks, stay safe and have a good Christmas!
       
       
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    • Hermes and mediation hints. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/428981-hermes-and-mediation-hints/&do=findComment&comment=5080003
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  • Recommended Topics

Euro Car Parks ANPR PCN - Aytoun St Manchester - next step advice please


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I parked at Euro Car Park on Aytoun St Manchester and forgot to pay.

 

A few weeks later I got a demand to pay £100 as RK

 

I replied with the same CAG advice that has helped me in the past which is :

 

'As RK I am not liable for this charge.

Cancel this charge or alternatively issue a valid code for POPLA.

At POPLA I shall be demanding a full breakdown of the genuine pre estimate of loss that this charge must represent.

I am under no obligation to name the driver of the vehicle at the time of the event.

No further correspondence will be entered into.'

 

This has worked on all previous occasions with other firms but Euro Car Parks have rejected my appeal

- citing a number of reasons that all revolve around

'you must purchase a ticket, signage clearly pointed out the terms of the parking contract and potential charges'

yet does not once name me or state I was the guilty party

(because they know they can't prove it and are just hoping I will own up)

and so I am wondering what my next step should be.

 

From reading other threads on Euro Car Park

I understand they have no leg to stand on,

that they cannot send me to a DCA or take me to court

but I am still unsure of how to respond.

 

It seems my options are as follows (along with potential downsides).

 

1) Insist that they provide me with a POPLA code. Downside being they may do so and I may lose at POPLA.

 

2) Ignore them. They should go away but I don't want them to take my inaction as weakness and ruin my credit rating by registering me with a DCA.

 

3) Write back with a withering putdown to show I am not a sucker and that they have no legal ground to enforce a fine,

can't prove I was the driver, and that I know their their process of DCA and solicitor threats is all internal and part of the same BS

- but this does run the risk of antagonising them.

 

4) Tell them to either take me to court and prove I was the driver or to go away. Downside being it could drag on and on.

 

My personal preference is for 3) followed by 2). Thoughts?

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not sure where you are getting this idea from that by them using a DCA it gets registered on your credit file......

 

oh and where do they use the word FINE please?

 

 

please complete this :

 

 

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?462118-Have-you-received-a-Parking-Ticket

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Euro car parks ALWAYS slip up. Around here there run multiple car parks, and everyone laughs at them.

 

Sit tight and relax. Theres no rush whatsoever and this is easily dealt with. You can ignore all their silly threats and timelines.

 

No point appealing to them directly. They will always reject it. WHy would they accept it? Theyd never make money if they did,

Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

:D

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your appeal is faulty on many levels so whatever they say wont be based on that.

 

If the site is near to you then go down there sometime soon and photograph

the entrance to the land and the signage there,

the signage inside the car park if different and

the blurb on the ticket machine as well.

 

The last part is the contract they offered, not the signage so it may be there is enough difference to mean that no contract was offered let alone breached.

 

Do not believe that they have to show a genuine pre-estimate of their loss and don't believe they cant sue you as keeper. POPLA is of little consequence, their remit is severely limited and not binding on the motorist anyway

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your appeal is faulty on many levels
]

How is this so?

 

 

Do not believe that they have to show a genuine pre-estimate of their loss and don't believe they cant sue you as keeper.

This is also untrue so I am interested in why you say otherwise.

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well, how about the POFA and the creation of a keeper liability of they follow certain steps and also the Beavis decision menas that they dont have to show a loss, just a abre licence to offer contracts and that any amoutn as a PENALTY for breaching that contract was OK as long as the amounnt was " not unconscionable"

 

You come here for advice part of that advice is to not go forward believing things that arent so. It may be that they havent created a keeper liability of the signage is faulty so the charge may not be a genuine offer of parking conditions but an unlawful penalty but a blanket statement saying that they have no leg to stand on based on false assumptions may well hurt you.

 

Beat them on what can be shown they have done wrong.

 

As for taking you to court, of course they can, anyone can sue anyone else for any reason, it is only when it gets heard does the merits of the claim get considered.

 

Aldo you talk about ruining your credt record by registering ut with a dca. again this is total twaddle, you need to read up on the powers that dca's have to do anything but I will summarise: they have no interest in any matter so they can do nothing, they are an uninterested thrird party and certainly do not have any authority to make an entry on your credit files, the CRA's would be out of business if they allowed that.

your next point mentions a FINE. Again this matter is not part of criminail jurisprudence but about contract law and that meand no fines. You may want to argue that it is common parlance. Yes, but not on CAG becasue by making it plain theire is a distinction it all becomes less scary for a lot of people faced with such matters for the first time.

 

So thougth on what you should do?

Certainly not anything at the moment as you risk shooting yourself in the foot

how about posting up the detail of your situation and we can advise what to do as well as what not to do

Edited by honeybee13
Paras
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  • 2 weeks later...

Cheers for the info. Questions follow.

 

 

well, how about the POFA and the creation of a keeper liability of they follow certain steps and also the Beavis decision menas that they dont have to show a loss, just a abre licence to offer contracts and that any amoutn as a PENALTY for breaching that contract was OK as long as the amounnt was " not unconscionable"

Okay but what about the POPLA defence being advocated by CAG and that other car park operators, including Euro, have backed down in the past?

 

What use is POPLA if what you say about PFA and co is true?

 

 

Aldo you talk about ruining your credt record by registering ut with a dca. again this is total twaddle.....they have no interest in any matter so they can do nothing, they are an uninterested thrird party and certainly do not have any authority to make an entry on your credit files, the CRA's would be out of business if they allowed that.

Don't DCAs 'ask' CRAs to register defaults and what not? Or could Euro Car Parks do it? I know it's not credit but still, it's defaulting on payment.

 

 

So thougth on what you should do?

Certainly not anything at the moment as you risk shooting yourself in the foot

how about posting up the detail of your situation and we can advise what to do as well as what not to do

What do you have in mind? I haven't done anything since firing back my POPLA defence. Was posting here to get info as to my next move.

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its a speculative invoice not credit nor a debt

nothing to do with your credit file..

 

 

dca's cant do anything...they are not bailiffs

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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You trot out utter cobblers about the powers of dca's and the like

but you seem so hostile to actually taking advice

 

it is difficult to offer advice, especially as we have no real information to go on about the event itself.

 

So what do I have in mind?

Nothing until you provide me with more information that will determine what the supposed breach is and what contract they rely on to claim there is a breach.

All standard stuff but you haven't supplied it.

 

read a number of other threads to get an idea of what is expected, provide it and we can go from there.

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Hostile? I rebutted one post from you and then when you explained further I accepted and asked questions to better my understanding as my previous understanding (POPLA) had been dismissed - so not sure what more I can do there.

 

I relayed all the info about the event in my OP: the car was parked and, by accident, a ticket wasn't purchased. What more info are you looking for?

 

As per my OP, I read a number of threads about Euro and the same CAG advice was given and they backed down.

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if you filled out the details in the link posted by DX100 then you would know the answer to the question what else.

 

dates and times of the event and subsequent communications, what exactly it is you are supposed to have done etc. It is all on just about every thread posted here, if you are going to sya you are not liable tyhen you had better know that the parking co havent followed the protocols of the POFA so that also involves reading that as well so you know what does and doesnt create a keeper liability. We can help you in this respect if you post up their NTK.

 

We ask for photographs of the signage, again as these havent been provided we cant comment on whetehr the actually form a contract or whether they are sited in such a way it is clear that you are being offered terms to park BEFORE entering the car park. Very few of the parking co's have signage that is watertight.

You are not new to CAG so it is reasonable to expect you to do a bit of reading before you post with your questions

 

It may not rain tomorrow but I will still take my coat with me just in case it does.

Edited by honeybee13
Paras
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please put those into one PDF read upload

popping them on the thread uses data people might not wish to if viewing by mobile or a slow connection

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?462118-Have-you-received-a-Parking-Ticket

please

 

did you get a clear photo of all the little red text?

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Only just noticed the little red box - no close up - will have to try and get one over the weekend.

 

1 Date of the infringement 15/08/2017

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] Issued on 22/08/2017

3 Date received Can't remember

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [y/n?] Yes.

Says that

"you are notified under the paragraph 9(2)(b) of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 that the driver is required to pay the pakring charge in full.

As we do not know the driver's name or current postal address,

if you were not the driver at the time,

you should tell us the name and current postal address of the driver and pass this notice to them.

 

You are advised that if, after 29 days from the date given (which is presumed to be the second working day after the date issued),

the parking charge has not been paid in full and we do not both the name and the current address of the driver, we have the right to recover any unpaid part of the parking charge from you. This notice is given to you under paragraph 9(2)(f) of Schedule 4 of the Protections of Freedoms Act 2012 and is subject to our complying with the applicable conditions under Schedule 4 of the Act".

 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? The charge includes 2 blurry photos of my licence plate.

 

6 Have you appealed? {y/n?] post up you appeal] Yes. It was the one I mentioned in my OP, citing POPLA.

 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up

They rejected my appeal stating no ticket was bought. I no longer have their response.

However their response came via email even though the charge/letter says that all online appeals will only be responded to via post.

 

7 Who is the parking company? Euro Car Parks.

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] Aytoun Street, Manchester.

 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under.

They list their own appeals process and website/email address and states that if the appeal is unsuccessful that I can appeal to POPLA.

 

There are two official bodies, the BPA and the IAS. BPA is on the top right on the charge

If you have received any other correspondence, please mention it here

Received the email rejection which included a pdf breakdown as to why my appeal was rejected (no ticket) and cited their rules which require a ticket to be purchased.

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these are all invitations to treat as the contract is only formed when you pay.

 

Now if the terms offered on the parking meter are different to the signage then you accept the terms when you pay,

if you dont pay them you are trespassing and that is nothing to do with ECP.

 

However, as you appealed it can be argued that you agree to be bound by the terms or appealing wouldnt apply.

 

Get a picture of any wording on the payment meter as this may scupper their claim a damned sight quicker than any other argument.

 

The siting of the other signs is also important,

we can guess where they would be,

especially the one with the big wording saying parking from £2

 

but please note where abouts each type is located and how many different signs there are altogether

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Argh! Only just seen your post Eric, so will have to go back to check.

 

In answer to what was the tiny red text about.

It started saying that no responsibility for damage/loss of property will be assumed by ECP and then said:

 

This land is private property.

No parking without the authority, whether expressed or implied of the owener of the vehicle.

If you fail to adhere to the terms and conditions you will be issued with a parking charge notice.

 

Vehicle keeper details may be requested from the DVLA if automatic number plate recognition is in operation or if the parking charge notice placed on your vehicle remains unpaid. Additional charges will be incurred from further civil action being taken.

 

After talking about abandoned, badly parked or obstructive vehicles and the action that can be taken against them it finishes off with:

 

Address for all enquiries contact ECO 24hr help desk 0207 56303000. Registration no 1270612.

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so you cant dump stolen vehicles there as they would still consider that the onwers responsibility and thus liable to pay.

What a bunch of clowns.

Their problem is by adding this rather meaningless bit to the contract they void the entire thing.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Sorry for the delay, I had a nasty fall and broke bones and have been laid up for a few weeks (and still am!)

so I've not been able to show you where and how the signage is displayed. I will when I get chance.

 

On another note all has gone quiet from ECP.

At first I assumed this was good news indicating that they've dropped their pursuit

 

but I've since heard anecdotes about people in a similar position being the unwitting recipients of a CCJ as ECP applied for one without the subject being aware and so couldn't turn up to defend themselves in court so how do I ensure this doesn't happen to me?

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well you've not moved have you so they cant file to an old address so don't worry

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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well you've not moved have you so they cant file to an old address so don't worry

 

So I would have to be made aware – either by ECP or the courts – about any pending CCJ action? Great. That makes me feel a lot better. I just hope any letter doesn't get lost in the post :-)

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there wont be any ccj action because you are using a misnomer. Read up on what a CCJ is and then you will see why your use of the term is wrong and then you will also see how many steps they have to take to get near one. Knowledge is power and it is easy to take the power away from them.

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