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Speeding - Inadequate Signage - Possible Cloned Reg

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I received an NIP last week for an alleged offence committed on the 26th August.

 

 

After reviewing the online evidence it's only showing the rear of the car and not the driver...

We cannot say with absolute certainty who was driving at the time of the alleged offence,

in fact I cannot recall anyone even driving that section of road in the last few years.

 

 

It's 10-12 miles in the opposite direction to any journeys normally made...

I had a look at my dashcam footage to see if it still had anything from that date,

but sadly it's all now overwritten with the earliest recordings from the 28th.

 

I had a look at the road and on street maps and I think that the sign posting for that section of road is inadequate...

there is a miniature 40mph sign on the corner as you exit the roundabout

and then I cannot see another one until well past the point of the alleged offence just before the next roundabout.

This section of road isn't through a built up area and is an A road that is 60mph before that roundabout.

 

 

It feels like they'd reduced the speed of that section purely to catch out motorists who cannot see the tiny little speed limit signs that are around a quarter of the size of regular ones and in the case of some of them, set far further back from the road than normal signs are.

 

 

The quality of the online images is particularly poor and doesn't have enough visible detail to even tell 100% if it's my car.

It does appear to be the right make/model/colour and you can just about make out the reg number, but not the other details of the number plate (such as country code and so forth which is in blue, nor the writing underneath from the dealer) and I also have a sticker on the back window underneath the rear wiper that I cannot see on the image.. because of the poor quality.

 

To sum up:

 

1: Cannot be certain that I or anyone else drove the car on that road

2: Cannot be certain that it's even my actual car in the image because of the lack of detail in the images

3: Concerned that my car could have been cloned (or at least the reg number)

 

Can I reply without admitting fault and ask for images in a much higher detail than those on the website,

because you cannot download them to try and enlarge to see details

they are displayed in such a tiny resolution on the website that it's impossible to even tell if there's a blue part on the number plate to the left.

 

 

I have zero points on my license and haven't had any in 20yrs,

I have no problem taking responsibility for any offence I 'have' committed,

but I'm not taking it for something I didn't...

 

 

and at this moment I cannot say with any accuracy if anyone drove my car on that road at that date/time nor can I state with an accuracy that the car is in fact mine to begin with.

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the little signs are repeater signs.

there should be a larger one somewhere before up the road.

 

 

dx


..

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There isn't a full sized sign then... as you exit the roundabout onto this A road, there is a small 'repeater' sign and about a mile or so further down the road there is another one before the next roundabout... Is this enough to make it invalid?

 

In fact upon checking this section... in both directions there are no full sized speed limit signs at all between the 2 roundabouts.

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If it wasn't you, why are you bothered about the signage?.

 

Stating "it wasn't me, but if it was you can't do me because the signage is incorrect" will only lead to doubt as to the accuracy of the claim your car had been cloned ....

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If you honestly can't remember who was driving your car at that time you respond to the NIP accordingly.

 

How many people regularly drive the vehicle?

 

Check your diary to see what events were occurring around that time to see if that helps jog your memory on whether your car was there or not.....

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There isn't a full sized sign then... as you exit the roundabout onto this A road, there is a small 'repeater' sign and about a mile or so further down the road there is another one before the next roundabout... Is this enough to make it invalid?

 

In fact upon checking this section... in both directions there are no full sized speed limit signs at all between the 2 roundabouts.

 

What section of road are you on about? Are there streetlights?

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If it wasn't you, why are you bothered about the signage?.

 

Stating "it wasn't me, but if it was you can't do me because the signage is incorrect" will only lead to doubt as to the accuracy of the claim your car had been cloned ....

 

Just because I don't remember driving this bit of road... doesn't mean with absolute certainty that I or anyone else didn't.

.. and if I did then I will take responsibility for it.

 

 

I'm not admitting to doing something I haven't.

hence the evidence is vital to finding out..

and the evidence is inadequate to determine fault at this point.

I can't even remember what I did on that day.

 

I tend to look at things from multiple angles, so inadequate signage is just one of the things any person being thorough would do.

 

If it was my car, then I have to make sure I know who was driving it so I can notify them.

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Fair enough.

I'd make that point in your reply, and that you are willing to make "all reasonable efforts" to identify the driver.

 

The courts see all the dodges to evade responsibility, so you'll want to persuade the police (& the court if need be!) that you want to have the responsibility allocated to the correct individual, and that is why you are seeking as much information as you can.

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Do I send back the NIP and tick the section that says I am unable to provide details of the driver at that time?.. and include a letter to explain why, asking for further information.. or just send a letter asking for information?

 

If you honestly can't remember who was driving your car at that time you respond to the NIP accordingly.

 

How many people regularly drive the vehicle?

 

Check your diary to see what events were occurring around that time to see if that helps jog your memory on whether your car was there or not.....

 

Nothing in the diary.. in fact I had a clear week and my last appt was the 22nd August and then nothing until the 31st... As far as I can recall I didn't do anything that entire week except some stuff around the house/garden & going shopping locally in my town.

 

My car was off the road for a few weeks before hand after a minor accident, and although it was repairable the insurance decided to write it off... So I had to buy it back and get a new MoT on it before I could legally drive it again... there's still some damage to the drivers door that is waiting repair (got a new door here).. The images I've seen of the car online show a 3/4 view that includes the drivers side... so once again, a better quality image may show damage to the drivers door which would confirm it's my car... but if the damage is missing... it proves absolutely that it's not.

 

What section of road are you on about? Are there streetlights?

 

It's the A605 at Thrapston in East Northants, there are street lights but the time of the offence was 11:19am... and If I'm being honest... I'm rarely up before noon these days and rarely in bed much before 3-4am.. According to them the van was parked at the marked location and the car was travelling North.

2056_map.jpg

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At this stage the signage issue is irrelevant.

 

You are only being asked to provide the driver’s details at present.

If you return the Section 172 notice (which is what you return, not the NIP)

simply saying that you do not know who was driving you will be charged under Section 172

– “Failure to provide driver’s details”.

You will not get any other information

(what do you have in mind?).

 

If you argue that the car was not yours

the prosecution has to prove that it was.

 

 

It is unlikely that there are any other photographs available and so they will rely on the one you have seen (or one very similar to it).

 

 

Simply saying “I don’t think it was my car” is unlikely to cast sufficient doubt.

Being able to prove your car was elsewhere at the time would.

 

 

Can you do that?

Suspecting “cloning” is also unlikely to cut the mustard.

First of all it is incredibly rare and also people driving with cloned plates tend not to commit a single minor offence.

Have you received any other NIPs beside this one?

 

There is a statutory defence to the charge which says that you shall not be guilty if you can show that you did not know and could not with reasonable diligence have ascertained who the driver of the vehicle was.

This is a high hurdle to climb.

 

 

You need to demonstrate that you have exercised all reasonable avenues to establish who was driving.

You will need to show that you have eliminated yourself (obviously)

and that you have comprehensively investigated the possibility that anybody else who has access to the vehicle may have been driving.

 

The tone of your posts at the moment suggests this:

“I think it might not have been my car at all.

But if it was I can’t really recall driving down that road at the time”.

That simply won’t cut the mustard, I’m afraid.

 

“Just because I don't remember driving this bit of road... doesn't mean with absolute certainty that I or anyone else didn't. .. and if I did then I will take responsibility for it.”

This obviously relates to the speeding offence.

However, as I said at the beginning, you need not worry about that at present.

The Section 172 offence is the one you will face if you do not provide the driver’s details.

 

The Section 172 offence carries six points, a hefty fine and insurance grief for around five years (insurers hate the MS90 endorsement code that goes with it).

 

 

You have not said what the alleged speed is but is very likely that the penalty for speeding will be quite a bit less.

It really is in your interests to make every effort to find out who was driving.

 

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Depending on you phone, you might to be able to get info of your whereabouts from that e.g. the Timeline section of the Google Maps app on my phone shows my movements on 26th (i drove to my local Sainsbury's).

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The offence was doing 55 in a 40 zone... does anyone know what the fine/points are for that?

 

Depending on you phone, you might to be able to get info of your whereabouts from that e.g. the Timeline section of the Google Maps app on my phone shows my movements on 26th (i drove to my local Sainsbury's).

 

That's a good idea, I'll check, can't do everyone's as the GF isn't back until the weekend now and the lad is at uni now... not sure when he'll be coming to visit next.

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The offence was doing 55 in a 40 zone... does anyone know what the fine/points are for that?

 

Just too fast for a Speed Awareness Course (that is available up to 53mph). The driver would be offered a fixed penalty of £100 and three points.

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It's the A605 at Thrapston in East Northants, there are street lights but the time of the offence was 11:19am....

I had a look at the road and on street maps and I think that the sign posting for that section of road is inadequate... there is a miniature 40mph sign on the corner as you exit the roundabout and then I cannot see another one until well past the point of the alleged offence just before the next roundabout. This section of road isn't through a built up area and is an A road that is 60mph before that roundabout.

 

The short stretch of road between the A14 interchange and the Huntington Rd roundabout is a 40MPH zone. There is a large round speed sign just after you enter the A605 from the A14 roundabout. The 40MPH zone continues to just beyond the Oundle Rd roundabout at the northern end of Thrapston. You can check this via Google's street view (the images are from July 2016).

 

I'm afraid poor signage will not help you. The small repeater signs that you refer to are there as a reminder as to the speed limit in force along that stretch of road.


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Photos are to identify the vehicle involved, not the driver.

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The small repeater signs that you refer to are there as a reminder as to the speed limit in force along that stretch of road.

Which, since I assume the road has a system of street lighting, would be 30mph in the absence of anything to the contrary.

 

I'm afraid poor signage will not help you
.

And even if it did, your problem at the moment is to identify the driver. Until you overcome that obstacle you can forget about the intricacies of the speeding allegation.

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Which, since I assume the road has a system of street lighting, would be 30mph in the absence of anything to the contrary.

 

Street lighting isn't an indicator of any speed limits, I used to live in Milton Keynes, that's pretty much 60mph speed limits on the entire grid system, not all of which are dual carriageway and they're all street lighting.

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Heckler, street lighting is.

Unless signposted to the contrary the limit is 30mph

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The short stretch of road between the A14 interchange and the Huntington Rd roundabout is a 40MPH zone. There is a large round speed sign just after you enter the A605 from the A14 roundabout. The 40MPH zone continues to just beyond the Oundle Rd roundabout at the northern end of Thrapston. You can check this via Google's street view (the images are from July 2016).

 

I'm afraid poor signage will not help you. The small repeater signs that you refer to are there as a reminder as to the speed limit in force along that stretch of road.

 

So what are the rules on signage? Because if you come out of Thrapston and turn left onto the A605... you would never see that 40mph speed limit sign... and you'd have to look pretty hard to spot the tiny repeater ones, especially on what appears to be a very busy road as it's the main route between the A14 and Peterborough/A1.

 

I've also seen the photo's of where the van was parked... and they've parked half on the grass verge obscuring a signpost.

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Street lighting isn't an indicator of any speed limits,

 

Section 82(1)(a) (of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (RTRA 1984)) defines a restricted road in England and Wales as a road which is provided with “a system of street lighting furnished by means of lamps placed not more than 200 yards apart”. Section 81 specifically makes it an offence for a person to drive a motor vehicle at a speed of more than 30 mph on a restricted road. You can find confirmation in the form of advice here:

 

https://www.confused.com/on-the-road/driving-law/watch-out-for-lamposts-to-avoid-a-speeding-fine

 

and here:

 

http://www.speedlimit.org.uk/speed_markings.html

 

and here (among many other places):

 

https://www.rospa.com/road-safety/advice/drivers/speed/top-ten-tips-to-stay-within-the-limit/lamp-posts/

 

Section 81 does not apply to motorways. Either the roads around Milton Keynes are derestricted by means of signs to indicate a different limit or you have been lucky. :-) Just out of interest, what makes the roads in MK 60mph other than a 60mph sign (i.e. a "sign to the contrary)?

 

Anyway, you keep on worrying about the signage. As I've said, no need to worry about that until you either provide the driver’s details or decide you cannot do so and opt instead to run a “reasonable diligence” defence.

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Street lighting isn't an indicator of any speed limits, I used to live in Milton Keynes, that's pretty much 60mph speed limits on the entire grid system, not all of which are dual carriageway and they're all street lighting.

 

On the contrary. Street lighting IS an indicator of speed limit. The limit is 30mph whenever street lighting is present UNLESS there is signage to the contrary.

 

*posted before I realised this point had already been made.....

 

Turning left onto the A605 out of Thrapston on either Oundle Road or Huntingdon Road you will be met with round 40mph speed limit signs on both sides of the road as you approach the roundabouts....

 

Street view is quite clear....

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I’ve just been having a glance back at some of your posts to see if I can help further.

 

 

This grabbed me:

 

“I'm not admitting to doing something I haven't.”

 

 

You are not being asked to admit to anything.

All you are being asked to do is to provide the details of the driver at the time of the allegation.

 

 

From your posts it seems to me that you are exploring the possibility of a defence to the speeding allegation

(on the basis of the signage, etc or possibly that it was not your car at all) before providing the driver’s details.

 

 

This is completely the wrong approach.

Even if you have an absolute cast iron defence to the speeding allegation you still have to provide the driver’s details.

If you do not then prosecution under S172 beckons.

 

Whilst it is true that if you plead not guilty to the S172 offence,

the prosecution has to prove that it was your car (if you raise the issue that it was not) they will have little difficulty doing so.

 

 

They have a photo of a car with your registration number and it fits the make and model.

That will be proof enough unless you can bring anything to court to cast doubt.

 

 

After that, the onus shifts to you to demonstrate that you have exercised all the reasonable diligence you can to establish who was driving but have still been unable to do so.

 

So, forget the signage.

It seems a dead duck anyway from what disgruntled has seen on Streetview and as I have explained, when driving on a road with street lights you should assume it is a 30mph limit unless you see signs to the contrary.

 

 

You need to concentrate on identifying the driver because without doing that,

3 points and £100 will almost certainly turn into six points and a good few hundred smackeroonies.

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Section 82(1)(a) (of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (RTRA 1984)) defines a restricted road in England and Wales as a road which is provided with “a system of street lighting furnished by means of lamps placed not more than 200 yards apart”. Section 81 specifically makes it an offence for a person to drive a motor vehicle at a speed of more than 30 mph on a restricted road. You can find confirmation in the form of advice here:

 

https://www.confused.com/on-the-road/driving-law/watch-out-for-lamposts-to-avoid-a-speeding-fine

 

and here:

 

http://www.speedlimit.org.uk/speed_markings.html

 

and here (among many other places):

 

https://www.rospa.com/road-safety/advice/drivers/speed/top-ten-tips-to-stay-within-the-limit/lamp-posts/

 

Section 81 does not apply to motorways. Either the roads around Milton Keynes are derestricted by means of signs to indicate a different limit or you have been lucky. :-) Just out of interest, what makes the roads in MK 60mph other than a 60mph sign (i.e. a "sign to the contrary)?

 

Anyway, you keep on worrying about the signage. As I've said, no need to worry about that until you either provide the driver’s details or decide you cannot do so and opt instead to run a “reasonable diligence” defence.

 

The roads in MK have always been that way, there are no signs at all to show lower speed limits...

I think it's perhaps because the whole city was designed around vehicle travel,

 

 

it's laid out like grid system... with single/dual carriageways separate from any built up areas..

aside from where those roads intersect with an existing part of the city..

. that was there before the city was even built.

 

 

Each individual estate is accessed via this grid system and then becomes a 30 limit.

I can only think of one little section that has changed from a 60 to a 50/40 and that's due to it being a very old single carriageway route between two of the old towns right on the edge of the city where they have now built yet another estate.

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So there are terminal signs between the 30mph and 60mph limits and repeaters where the 60mph limit prevails when there is street lighting? And back to this particular road in question here, what limit did you think prevailed before all this happened?

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and for how many years have you used that road....


..

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