Withholding video evidence

[tony c]

Even I think you're stirring now. Let's see if Tony can shed any light on the record of discussion.

The record of discussion was for a delivery I did. My company offers a kerbside only delivery. As I only done a kerbside the customer complained that she had paid for a delivery service where she wanted 10 fencing panels 15bbags of postfix and concrete posts put in her rear garden. In our company handbook it is driver discretion to assist if more than kerbside is required. I refused so the lady complained me and my boss had a ROD. that is it

[Emmzzi]

The record of discussion was for a delivery I did. My company offers a kerbside only delivery. As I only done a kerbside the customer complained that she had paid for a delivery service where she wanted 10 fencing panels 15bbags of postfix and concrete posts put in her rear garden. In our company handbook it is driver discretion to assist if more than kerbside is required. I refused so the lady complained me and my boss had a ROD. that is it

 

That sounds to me like they are building a general case of not acting in line with company values; it won't be the refusal, it'll be that it was refused in a way that caused the customer to complain. You might want to gather some examples of when customers have given praise/ positive feedback to have ready, to counter that argument.

[tony c]

Worth noting that the OP has remained silent on if his employers know him for "losing his rag" / if he has been subject to any previous disciplinary action : this being relevant to any likely outcome.

 

The OP admits to telling the other driver to "F-off" and we know they have also done so before : what does the employer know regarding their likely responses (temperate or otherwise) to disagreements, especially driving ones?

Bazza you really are boring do me a favour and leave the thread. I don't want input from a narcissistic oooh look at me I am stirring the pot antagonist. Is all this hate because I made you look stupid well forgive me because it certainly wasn't hard to do.

[tony c]

That sounds to me like they are building a general case of not acting in line with company values; it won't be the refusal, it'll be that it was refused in a way that caused the customer to complain. You might want to gather some examples of when customers have given praise/ positive feedback to have ready, to counter that argument.

Emmzzi I have 5 or 6 very good customers that I get on very well with. They are all willing to make statements saying how helpful I am the lady who complained wasn't even there it was her husband who told her.

[Emmzzi]

Emmzzi I have 5 or 6 very good customers that I get on very well with. They are all willing to make statements saying how helpful I am the lady who complained wasn't even there it was her husband who told her.

 

Probably wouldn't go so far to do that as prep, but do have the list to take in with you, and discuss with your rep in advance.

[tony c]

Probably wouldn't go so far to do that as prep, but do have the list to take in with you, and discuss with your rep in advance.

Ok thanks emmzzi and accept my apologies if I have offended you I hate feeling if I am being prodded and poked to see if I rise to the bait.

[Emmzzi]

Ok thanks emmzzi and accept my apologies if I have offended you I hate feeling if I am being prodded and poked to see if I rise to the bait.

 

It's that we can't give best advice without the full picture. But best get your frustrations out here so you can be a picture of calm on the day!

[tony c]

Sacked due to their belief that the incident occurred even tho the video evidence showed absolute zilch.

[renegadeimp]

They must have had reasonable suspicion. What evidence did they give? Also, you are well within your rights to put in an appeal against it.

[Emmzzi]

Not the best news :/

 

What did your rep have to say?

[disgruntled2007]

Hardly a reliable witness is he.....

[tony c]

Not the best news :/

 

What did your rep have to say?

 

He said that as long as they have reasonable belief it will be hard to prove I did or didn't abuse the rider. Honestly their is no audio no helmet cam no nothing there is front and back cameras on the bike and in one shot you can see me for about 1 sec leaning out of my window looking at where the driver went. He then produced the worst bit of bike riding i have seen he went on the wrong side of the road into on coming traffic weaving in and out of lanes. Yet they still believed him

[renegadeimp]

You could appeal if you want and cite that. That there is no evidence so you want to know how there could be reasonable suspicion.

[tony c]

Hardly a reliable witness is he.....

 

Who

[tony c]

You could appeal if you want and cite that. That there is no evidence so you want to know how there could be reasonable suspicion.

That's what I am doing m8 have to wait for the letter to come thru.

[tony c]

The man that took the DM also bought up that ROD which was dated 31/5/17 when my manager and me had a discussion on it the date was6/6/17 I said to the bloke I have improved my customer relations no end since that meeting and I have 5 emails from various customers and builders to corroborate this. He wasn't interested one bit.He said it showed a pattern of rudeness and poor customer interaction

[renegadeimp]

Tbh it sounds like they were looking for a way to get you out.

[sangie5952]

The man that took the DM also bought up that ROD which was dated 31/5/17 when my manager and me had a discussion on it the date was6/6/17 I said to the bloke I have improved my customer relations no end since that meeting and I have 5 emails from various customers and builders to corroborate this. He wasn't interested one bit.He said it showed a pattern of rudeness and poor customer interaction

 

And that is why you were asked about previous history. The strategy to defend such an allegation depends entirely on context. Part of the context of you was the suggestion that there might be "previous". Because that would make them less likely to believe your version. And this "previous" is in May. It's only just September. So three months later you have another interaction that leads to a complaint. And that "previous" it's their reasonable belief. The CCTV is irrelevant as to what it shows because it also doesn't exonerate you. It's your word against his. So they have looked at your record and decided to believe his. That should be sufficient in law to defend their position.

 

You see, given this previous history, I'd have gone with "I genuinely didn't act inappropriately as far as I can recall, but these situations are always hard to recall, and maybe I might have acted better, or he misunderstood me, but I am really sorry and I'd be happy to apologise for the good reputation of the company because that matters more than my personal pride". That totally disarms the "either he is lying or I am" situation. And if I had the proper information to think about that without having seen the side of you that the biker was complaining about, then I'd have told you to do that. But you wouldn't help yourself by answering people, you just decided to abuse them because you were angry, even though they did nothing. You might want to think about that, because you MIGHT have one final shot at that defence in an appeal. But you will have to eat some humble pie. Which is more important? Your job or your pride? If it's your job, appeal and try the defence that you are really sorry. You honestly don't think you were abusive or offensive, but you accept that for some reason that is the way you were perceived. And you really want to be a productive employee and to improve and you will do whatever it takes to prove yourself. But be aware, one of the things it will take, if they believe you, is swallowing your pride and your temper. And please don't tell me you don't have either. You demonstrated them plenty on here - and that was to people trying to actually help you! The posts may have gone, but they were there!

 

I don't want to see any employee sacked, but whilst telling you that the employer had it in for you might make you feel better, I very much doubt they did. If they did, you'd have been history long ago. Sacking an inconvenient employee is really easy. They don't need an excuse. Nobody is that good that they don't provide good excuses if you look for them. One way or another, your temper has landed you here. And if they were looking for a reason it was probably that temper that gave them the reason. So you probably have one shot at getting that job back. Up to you whether you use it or not. But I would. Because your unemployment benefits went out the window when you were sacked for misconduct. Your chances of a tribunal are low - they have a good argument for dismissals and reasonable belief. And your reference is shot to hell. That isn't gloating. It's just fact. So in your shoes, I'd suggest you do everything you must to win an appeal. Even if that just gets you a reprieve to find another job without a dismissal on your record.

[tony c]

And that is why you were asked about previous history. The strategy to defend such an allegation depends entirely on context. Part of the context of you was the suggestion that there might be "previous". Because that would make them less likely to believe your version. And this "previous" is in May. It's only just September. So three months later you have another interaction that leads to a complaint. And that "previous" it's their reasonable belief. The CCTV is irrelevant as to what it shows because it also doesn't exonerate you. It's your word against his. So they have looked at your record and decided to believe his. That should be sufficient in law to defend their position.

 

You see, given this previous history, I'd have gone with "I genuinely didn't act inappropriately as far as I can recall, but these situations are always hard to recall, and maybe I might have acted better, or he misunderstood me, but I am really sorry and I'd be happy to apologise for the good reputation of the company because that matters more than my personal pride". That totally disarms the "either he is lying or I am" situation. And if I had the proper information to think about that without having seen the side of you that the biker was complaining about, then I'd have told you to do that. But you wouldn't help yourself by answering people, you just decided to abuse them because you were angry, even though they did nothing. You might want to think about that, because you MIGHT have one final shot at that defence in an appeal. But you will have to eat some humble pie. Which is more important? Your job or your pride? If it's your job, appeal and try the defence that you are really sorry. You honestly don't think you were abusive or offensive, but you accept that for some reason that is the way you were perceived. And you really want to be a productive employee and to improve and you will do whatever it takes to prove yourself. But be aware, one of the things it will take, if they believe you, is swallowing your pride and your temper. And please don't tell me you don't have either. You demonstrated them plenty on here - and that was to people trying to actually help you! The posts may have gone, but they were there!

 

I don't want to see any employee sacked, but whilst telling you that the employer had it in for you might make you feel better, I very much doubt they did. If they did, you'd have been history long ago. Sacking an inconvenient employee is really easy. They don't need an excuse. Nobody is that good that they don't provide good excuses if you look for them. One way or another, your temper has landed you here. And if they were looking for a reason it was probably that temper that gave them the reason. So you probably have one shot at getting that job back. Up to you whether you use it or not. But I would. Because your unemployment benefits went out the window when you were sacked for misconduct. Your chances of a tribunal are low - they have a good argument for dismissals and reasonable belief. And your reference is shot to hell. That isn't gloating. It's just fact. So in your shoes, I'd suggest you do everything you must to win an appeal. Even if that just gets you a reprieve to find another job without a dismissal on your record.

I asked if I could apologise to the biker I asked if I could apologise to all and sundry I ate humble pie which I am not ashamed of. I asked for anger management I asked yo be suspended without pay I asked for basically the kitchen sink. But they didn't want to know. It wasn't my temper that got me here as the ROD should never have seen the light of day as It was heresay. I am shocked at the video evidence or lack of it. I will appeal and I will be contrite but it will come to nothing.

[spitfire1964]

Sacked due to their belief that the incident occurred even tho the video evidence showed absolute zilch.

 

So they have sacked you because they have reason to believe the rider and because you cannot give a good enough reason why he has lied, which I believe was the case, they are skating on very thin ice, and when you prove that they are currently breaching a number of them, lets hope the company gets a big hefty fine for failing to follow the procedure to sack a person.

 

Have they ever giving you a writing warning before.

 

First thing in the morning report this to ACAS because in doing this they will have to follow correct procedures and it might make them think again, you must report it mate, you have been unfairly dismissed not on evidence or on fact but on a mere assumption which in any law is worthless.

[tony c]

So they have sacked you because they have reason to believe the rider and because you cannot give a good enough reason why he has lied, which I believe was the case, they are skating on very thin ice, and when you prove that they are currently breaching a number of them, lets hope the company gets a big hefty fine for failing to follow the procedure to sack a person.

 

Have they ever giving you a writing warning before.

 

First thing in the morning report this to ACAS because in doing this they will have to follow correct procedures and it might make them think again, you must report it mate, you have been unfairly dismissed not on evidence or on fact but on a mere assumption which in any law is worthless.

 

Thanks m8 yea I will give ahas a bell another thing that came up in the meeting was the incident apparently took place on Fri 25th aug. When we all Sat down the first thing the chair said was that the incident actually took place on thur 24th aug. But he produced my tracking report which had me in London on that day.

[spitfire1964]

Thanks m8 yea I will give ahas a bell another thing that came up in the meeting was the incident apparently took place on Fri 25th aug. When we all Sat down the first thing the chair said was that the incident actually took place on thur 24th aug. But he produced my tracking report which had me in London on that day.

 

Try and just stick with how they have sacked you and the manner in which they have achieved it, what was alleged and who done what is now irrelevant, it is down to how your employees have acted in dismissing you, as for union reps, some are rewarded for acting the complete opposite, it goes on, get hold of ACAS and lodge your complaint immediately mate.

[tony c]

Try and just stick with how they have sacked you and the manner in which they have achieved it, what was alleged and who done what is now irrelevant, it is down to how your employees have acted in dismissing you, as for union reps, some are rewarded for acting the complete opposite, it goes on, get hold of ACAS and lodge your complaint immediately mate.

 

Cheers m8 will do

[sangie5952]

you have been unfairly dismissed not on evidence or on fact but on a mere assumption which in any law is worthless.

 

Not in employment law it isn't! The employer has previous complaints about the OP's behaviour. The lack of evidence is irrelevant. The employer is entitled to "reasonable belief". The previous complaints substantiate reasonable belief. That is all they ever needed. But I can see I am wasting my breath again so I will retire.

[spitfire1964]

Not in employment law it isn't! The employer has previous complaints about the OP's behaviour. The lack of evidence is irrelevant. The employer is entitled to "reasonable belief". The previous complaints substantiate reasonable belief. That is all they ever needed. But I can see I am wasting my breath again so I will retire.

 

Yes and believe or not, the Employment law that you refer is there not only to protect the employer, but also the employee who has certain rights, has the OP's employer observed and complied with those?, that I very much doubt.

 

Is ok to rely on what has previously gone on, but if you or the OP's employers are adamant that reliance can be placed on this which is suspect, if they have not followed the correct protocol and within Employment Law before sacking someone and for what ever reason that they feel is justified, procedures have to be adopted, evidently this is not the case, period.