HMRC Pending Statutory Demand & Bankruptcy - Dont know where to turn

[Reval1969]

This post is long over due

I need some help and advise as

I just don't know if I can take this stress on my shoulders any more

despite having a loving caring family and the shame that this will bring on our family.

 

April last year I received a letter from HMRC compliance asking me to contact them re Self assessment return for 14-15 as they wanted confirmation expenses claimed,

 

 

at the time I had been employed as a sales manager and had to take clients out a lot and they often refused to sign off expenses so I just put them through on my tax return as I thought that I could do this and had been doing it for a number of years including road mileage etc.

 

Around the same time I had just been made redundant but managed to get a job for an oversees company but could only pay me as a contractor as no accounts in the UK, this was always going to be a temporary arrangement or so I thought.

 

 

Meanwhile I had been in contact with my compliance officer at HMRC and sent him everything that he had asked for and he was a actually a really nice man and reassured me that this wasn't a criminal investigation merely putting all the facts together.

 

 

A while passed and whilst occasionally in communication he asked me to meet him at the HMRC office in London this was now October so I did and I was taken to a room where him and a colleague who was there to make notes greeted me.

 

 

He told me that I shouldn't of been claiming expenses on HMRC as the company that I had worked for had an agreement with HMRC for employees claiming expenses (there is a word for this but I cant remember) which is fine but they clearly understand the characters that I had worked for and the problems we had getting these signed off.

 

the compliance officer at the end dropped the bombshell that I owed 70k as they had gone back 10 years and they where going to add penalty charges and interest but they wouldn't know what that was yet,

 

 

I was obviously gob smacked and I said that I didn't want to go bankrupt as this would effect my job and any future job prospects because of the nature of my sales role.

 

 

They both categorically told me that I wouldn't be made bankrupt and I would be able to pay them off as long as it took and I would still be able to have nice holidays and they even said they couldn't get blood out of a stone. So whilst I came away from the meeting very anxious it was reassuring to think that I could pay this off maybe over 10 years or so.

 

I soon got confirmation that in total with everything added I owed around 120k which is unbelievable considering the debt was 70k and during these years I had been paying a lot of tax and (I have never not paid tax since I was 16).

 

 

I soon got letters from the HMRC debt management and was asked to contact them which I did and I was immediately taken back as to how aggressive they where and when I explained my conversations with my compliance officer they just laughed and said that they have got no authority to be giving me information like that and It is completely wrong and they said that ultimately If I couldn't pay I would be made bankrupt.

 

 

I immediately contacted my officer and I have this on email and told him what had happened and he came back on email and said that he would contact them which he did and came back and said that he had spoken to them and it should be fine now.

I contacted them again and they told me exactly the same thing that he shouldn't be getting involved we are the debt management team and that was that.

 

Shortly after I had a visit from a field office and had the same conversations and she said the same things like we are not a bank and why should we let you pay over a period of years we want our money now.

 

 

eventually I got a letter from the Debt final resolution team and whilst the lady has been very nice she gave me until the end of next year to pay the debt which means me finding 4k a month and a lump sum of 70k and whilst I have been trying to find someone to lend me the money its just not going to happened and I have paid the 4k for 2 months and its just left me and my family not paying for other debts and we have got behind with everything like car payments, Loans etc and I am not at my wits end as there is no light at the end of the tunnel I cant even afford to buy my boys school clothes to go back to school.

 

The thing is I have never disputed the money I owe them

I would honestly pay back every penny

the thought of going bankrupt fills me with dread and how this would effect our family and stigma attached to it and will it be in papers who will find out

 

 

I just have no where to turn and my employer will probably sack me once I tell them its just a really awful situation and I need help.

Edited September 4, 2017 by Andyorch
edited

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG. I'm sorry you're going through a tough time at the moment.

 

I'll flag your post for the site team, we have a couple of people who should be able to advise and other people may look in over the day. Have you ever talked to an accountant about all this?

 

Best, HB

[Reval1969]

Morning HB,

 

No I didn't / haven't and I know that I should of done but I thought that I would be judged and I felt ashamed and embarrassed as that's how HMRC made me feel, I know its stupid but I am very good at putting my head in sand.

 

KR

[honeybee13]

We don't tell people off here or want them to feel bad, please don't worry about that.

 

The guys will tell you if an accountant can help at this stage. For what it's worth when I worked for a firm of accountants, the tax people regularly helped clients who were being investigated by HMRC. They're very used to dealing with them.

 

HB

[unclebulgaria67]

Not my area of knowledge.

if HMRC had a deal with your employer about these expenses,

then that employer has already benefitted from your expenses

and now that HMRC have excluded you from claiming these,

you should have a basis for suing the employers ?

 

Do you have evidence of contacting your employer about these expenses issues and you including them in tax returns to HMRC ?

 

Have you contacted your local MP to see if they can help in regard to HMRC conduct ?

Can they intervene on your behalf with a complaint, so that there is a pause in proceedings, enabling you to seek advive and take necessary actions ?

[Reval1969]

Hi UB67

 

The problem that I have with my ex employee the guys that where supposed to sign off expenses are no longer there so its my word against theirs and I have no proof on email.

 

With regard to contacting my local MP

no I haven't

I did myself formally complain to HMRC but when I got a phone call back from them they just said exactly the same thing as the debt management team had said

i.e my compliance officer had no right saying what he said and that was that.

 

KR R

[unclebulgaria67]

Suggest you contact your MP's office today to get a complaint started about the conduct of HMRC and ask that they try to intervene on your behalf to obtain breathing space so you can deal with this complicated issue.

 

If it were me, i would also be contacting the Human Resources director of the company worked for, with full details of the problem with HMRC and the expenses.

 

Perhaps between the company, HMRC and yourself, this can be resolved.

 

Don't start threatening the company with a court claim, as they might then not be as helpful.

You need them on your side, to help with the HMRC.

[Reval1969]

Thank you for your advise I will take this on board, I would however be interested if any other members think the way that HMRC have handled the case is unprofessional or is it just the way they are and that's that.

 

I will be contacting my MP today.

 

KR R

[unclebulgaria67]

If you read Civil Service publications, they always say how they like to manage a quality customer service, how they are fair in their dealings with people etc.

 

Have you sent a Data Protection Subject Access Request to HMRC to get hold of all information ?

 

If you check HMRC info on such requests, they will tell you where to send these

 

. It is free to make such requests to them, so you might as well.

 

Mark it urgent and detail all the information you want.

[Reval1969]

Thank you UB67

 

Please could you tell me what information I should be asking from them is it all personal information relating to my case ?

 

Also with regards to contacting my MP how do you think I should draft an email am I asking her to intervene to give me more time any advise would be welcome.

 

KR R

[unclebulgaria67]

All your tax records for the relevant period.

 

All records relating to the current issue including any taped recording of your meeting. There will be a full record of your meeting with HMRC and possibly a digital recording of the conversation. Also the HMRC section that calculated the amount will have a file full of information including how it was calculated.

 

In regard to your MP, you must state clearly what your complaint is. They need to understand the gravity of the situation and what help you are seeking.

[dx100uk]

Goto the HMRC website

And fillout the free subject access request there

[Reval1969]

Thanks for all your help so far I have emailed my MP and I will get my subject access request done.

 

I am going to be getting the stat demand through any day

 

 

was kind of hoping I would get some advise as to who I should go and see,

who can I turn to for help as at the moment

 

 

everything just seems to be spiralling out of control

are there any other forums any one would recommend.

 

Kind Regards R

[dx100uk]

why do you keep wanting to go elsewhere..

whats your problem?

 

 

an SD is a wish not a done thing

IF you get one

you have 18 days if memory serves me correctly

its not a 'done thing' you'll be made BK just because you get an SD.

[unclebulgaria67]

Thanks for all your help so far I have emailed my MP and I will get my subject access request done.

 

I am going to be getting the stat demand through any day

 

 

was kind of hoping I would get some advise as to who I should go and see,

who can I turn to for help as at the moment

 

 

everything just seems to be spiralling out of control

are there any other forums any one would recommend.

 

Kind Regards R

 

Expect there are specialist Solicitors out there who deal with these issues, but at a cost. No doubt the Law Society search facility will list Solicitors that deal with tax issues in your area.

 

If you receive a statutory demand you can apply to your nearest county court to set it aside within 18 days of receipt. The SD is just issued by a creditor and does not touch a court until an application is made to set it aside or the creditor applies for hankruptcy. If you did not successfully set it aside, i believe the creditor has 6 months to apply for bankruptcy.

 

The other issue which has just come to my mind, is what advice did you receive from any accountant and/or your employers when you added these business expenses to your tax returns ? Surely a conversation would have taken place about this. And why did HMRC not realise at an earlier stage that there was an issue ?

[honeybee13]

UB, I think it could well be an accountant who can help. The ones I worked for did this stuff all the time.

 

Reval, I was hoping that site team member Slick would be able to come and see your thread, but I guess they aren't around at the moment. I think it would be worth ringing a couple of local chartered accountants [you can find local ones on the ICAEW site if you're in England or Wales]. Ask to speak to a tax partner, tell them your story and see what they think they can do to help. If they tell you it's lawyer work, so be it.

 

Please don't think they'll be shocked by your story, as I said they see this all the time and take clients through investigations.

 

HB

Edited September 4, 2017 by honeybee13
Addition.

[ericsbrother]

I wouldn't let the limited evidential trail put you off going after your ex-employer,

you will get most of the info you need from the HMRC if you no longer have your own paperwork.

 

Old diaries would be useful, along with phone records, service history of your car etc.

.Keep them all.

 

As already said, a good accountant will know the ins and outs of what you are told you owe,

probably got lot of assumptions in the figures that can be picked up on.

 

Many companies claim tax relief for laundering their employees work wear and the like but never do so again an accountant will be able to find these little things that make the bigger object wobble.

Edited September 4, 2017 by honeybee13
Paras.

[Reval1969]

HI DX,

 

I don't keep wanting to go elsewhere I was just asking above if any one new forum that specialises in this sort of problem, the advice I have received has been great and I very grateful.

 

KR R

[honeybee13]

I would hazard a guess that this problem is beyond just forum advice and that what you need is professional advice as well.

 

Would you consider ringing a couple of local CAs?

 

It won't cost you anything and you should get an indication of what they can do.

 

They will probably also give you an initial half hour meeting free of charge to discuss things.

 

HB

[Reval1969]

Thank you UB,

 

When I get the SD on what grounds should I try and get it set aside should it be because I have taken advice and I believe that I have been unfairly treated by the HMRC in terms of communication from different departments and I am waiting for more information from the HMRC re Subject Access Request.

 

KR R

[Reval1969]

Sorry for my ignorance HB is CA short for Citizens Advice ?

[honeybee13]

Chartered Accountant.

 

HB

[unclebulgaria67]

Thank you UB,

 

When I get the SD on what grounds should I try and get it set aside should it be because I have taken advice and I believe that I have been unfairly treated by the HMRC in terms of communication from different departments and I am waiting for more information from the HMRC re Subject Access Request.

 

KR R

 

 

IF you get the SD, it will state their particulars of claim against you and the reasons for set aside would be based on disputing what they have said. For example, what evidence is there that HMRC had any arrangement with the employers in regard to expense claims and they should not be included wifhin any tax return. Also you might dispute that you owe the amount stated, as HMRC have not allowed you any time to investigate the expense issues with your former employet.

 

Where an tax accountant would be extremely helpful is in knowing all of the rules in regard to these issues. But they would want to be supplied with all of the information.

 

Perhaps HB is correct, that an accountant would be better placed than a Solicitors in the first instance and if you need legal help later, they will probably have a Solicitors they normally use to help their clients.

 

Nb. Just because they mentioned an SD/Bankruptcy does not mean that they would proceed with this any time soon. You may have plenty of time to resolve this.

[slick132]

Hi Reval and sorry to be late posting but I've only just seen the request for my input.

 

First off, this scenario has been going on for many years so stop trying to sort it all out in a rush. Panicking will get you nowhere. You need to give us some info so we can point you in the right direction.

 

You almost certainly need to engage the services of a firm of Chartered Accountants who have personal tax specialists who will have the experience to tackle HMRC in the right way.

 

I would not make a complaint at this stage to an MP - way too early. You need expert advice from someone who can go through the figures for each year with you.

 

Also, you need to be aware that the HMRC Compliance folk who "work out what you owe" have little control beyond their assessing what is allegedly owed. The tax collection side are not interested in how a debt arose - they only care that it's paid quickly.

 

A solicitor is not what you need. Generally, a tax specialist with a Chtd Acct will be the best, and the cheapest option.

 

Finally, stay OFF the phone from now on. If HMRC call you, tell them you require everything in writing only, then hang up !! And do NOT call them for any reason.

 

Some info please:-

 

1. Who said a SD is due any time. Was this by phone or in writing.

 

2. Were you paid under PAYE from the employer, or treated as self-employed.

 

3. Have you received detailed calcs of how the alleged arrears arose from the Compliance officer, including tax, interest and penalties.

 

4. How did you claim tax relief on the entertaining and motoring costs - ie under what heading did you claim relief for each on your SA tax returns.

 

Specific answers please to each Q and we'll move on from there ..............

 

[slick132]

Hi again Reval,

 

I also want to add - I see no reason at all for you to feel ashamed of what you did.

 

Unless you knowingly set out to defraud HMRC, I think you have made mistakes which have been compounded over the years.

 

I suspect HMRC may well have taken advantage of your naivety, your fears and your wish to sort this quickly and quietly.

 

Edited September 5, 2017 by slick132