Miele Washing Machine broken, 10-year warranty & unrepairable

[gavva1]

I Bought a Miele washing Machine in 2010 with a 10-year Parts & Labour waranty. A month ago, it began clunking during the rinse cycle. I called Miele, to book an engineer, & was told by the advisor, "if we can't repair it, we'll replace it."

 

An engineer arrived last week, diagnosing a broken drum. The machine has only performed 1,000 hours use in 7 years, which is extremely low. I have Polished stone on the kitchen floor, & the engineer advised that despite laying protective coverings, the floor would likely be damaged during the repair, due to the weight of the drum assembly. Because I had been forewarned of this, Miele would not be liable. He also offered 60% off a new appliance, however with 3 years remaining on the warranty, this is not an option I would follow.

 

I called their customer service team who agreed, with no alternative repair location, the repair could not be carried out. They agreed to supply a new machine of equivalent spec, HOWEVER I would have to pay £180.00 for delivery/installation. I informed them I was not prepared to pay this, as I had already been told I would receive a replacement if the machine was beyond repair.

 

I am now dealing with their "customer experience team", at the highest level. As of now, they are saying they won't waive the £180.00 charge.

 

I've read the terms of the warranty, which do state "at our discretion, we may replace the appliance", so they aren't obliged to

replace it, however the repair is not viable due to space restriction & the likely floor damage.

 

I have lost all faith in Miele, I've spent a month with no use of the washing machine, which in the engineer's opinion is a fire-hazard, due to sparking during use.

 

Does anybody here think it's reasonable to be asked to stump up £180.00, because of their inability to carry out the repair, in line with the terms of the warranty?

[unclebulgaria67]

Whatever the rights of this are, i am trying to think logically. If the new replacement is rejected, because of the £180 charge, then they might just take the old machine out for repair, put it in a van, repair it somewhere and you get it back and it might last say 3 years before another fault occurs.

 

You have been offered a brand new machine for £180 charge and they will get rid of your old machine. The new machine might last over 5 years without any faults. What new washing machine can you buy for £180 and they take away your old machine as well ?

 

I think i would take the offer of a new machine for £180 ( under protest) and i would deal with this charge afterwards by writing to Miele asking where this £180 charge appears in their terms and conditions. If it is not in their warranty terms in some way, then you can ask for it back and if necessary take action if you wanted to.

[BazzaS]

What warranty are they offering for the replacement machine?

Technically they need only offer 3 years....

 

I suggest agreeing to the £180, on proviso the replacement comes with a 10 year warranty......

[gavva1]

Once it was established that I wouldn't accept damage to my flooring, their next step was trying to find alternative premises - they have none. Nowhere in the UK apparently. In the past, this was possible, due to agreements they had with local appliance repair companies, to borrow the space in their premises. This has been ruled out, hence the offer of replacement, however it's not my faault they aren't able to repair, therefore the only option they have is to replace - This is essentially why I'm not happy about the charge, because there's no other option.

 

I'm unclear about the warranty, as the offered machine now carries only 5 years (the engineer mentioned that the 10-year warranty has been cut for *most* machines, as the costs to Miele for dealing with this were a problem) - This is worth noting, when they claim their machines are built to last 20 years.

 

In the warranty T&Cs, it states "3.2 - If Miele replaces the appliance, the guarantee and/or service certificate become invalid" - So I'm unclear on this, & will ask them to clarify exactly what this means, ie - regarding the replacement? The service used for this includes delivery & installation of the new appliance, & removal/disposal of the old appliance.

[BazzaS]

You still would only be entitled to a warranty for the period remaining if the original 10 years : as you are getting a warranty replacement, not "buying a new machine".

 

If they are offering a new 5 year warranty with the replacement : still worth it, IMO. You are covered for 5 years, which is a further 2 years over the original 10.

If the replacement lasts another 7 years, then you'll have had 14 years for (the cost of original machine + £180). You may not get 7 years making 14, but you'd get at least 5 (making 12 in total), and possibly more.

 

It's not your fault they don't have alternative workshop facilities, but it isn't theirs you have a floor that wouldn't allow them to repair the machine in situ.

[unclebulgaria67]

Once it was established that I wouldn't accept damage to my flooring, their next step was trying to find alternative premises - they have none. Nowhere in the UK apparently. In the past, this was possible, due to agreements they had with local appliance repair companies, to borrow the space in their premises. This has been ruled out, hence the offer of replacement, however it's not my faault they aren't able to repair, therefore the only option they have is to replace - This is essentially why I'm not happy about the charge, because there's no other option.

 

I'm unclear about the warranty, as the offered machine now carries only 5 years (the engineer mentioned that the 10-year warranty has been cut for *most* machines, as the costs to Miele for dealing with this were a problem) - This is worth noting, when they claim their machines are built to last 20 years.

 

In the warranty T&Cs, it states "3.2 - If Miele replaces the appliance, the guarantee and/or service certificate become invalid" - So I'm unclear on this, & will ask them to clarify exactly what this means, ie - regarding the replacement? The service used for this includes delivery & installation of the new appliance, & removal/disposal of the old appliance.

 

Devils advocate here.

 

What is stopping you asking a neighbour, if Miele can use their garage floor to repair the washing machine ?

 

If they can move your machine to a neighbours garage, then they can do the repair.

 

If it were me, i would accept the brand new machine for £180, subject to either under protest dispute complaint about this charge or Miele agreeing to a 5 year warranty on new machine.

[gavva1]

BazzaS I can see how this seems like a good deal, however the machines are supposed to last 20 years on average, so I'd feel pretty slighted to get only 12 years from 2 machines - especially given the low usage (one cycle per week).

 

To get only 7 years from the replacement, would be the end of me as a customer for Miele. I had a chat with their team on Friday, & made them aware I would pay the £180.00, however the complaint was not closed, & I wasn't happy with this. I've just made the payment, & the New machine is due next Wednesday.

 

unclebulgaria67, my Kitchen has 9m2 of clear space, & in their opinion this would be "extremely tight". The engineer said they need so much space, as the machine has to be completely stripped, & there needs to be room for the hoist to get the drum out, I don't think a garage would be big enough.

 

With regards to "under protest dispute complaint", is this a legal term, & what's the best way forward from here? I feel I've been forced into making the payment under duress, as having had no usable machine for over a Month, I have to get a working machine.

[BazzaS]

Are they "supposed to last 20 years on average"?

 

I'd query why they are saying "should last x years" and then offering their parts & labour warranty for a shorter period ......

 

The warranty is now 5 years (& was 10).

I make that 15 years for both if you buy 2 from new (with the first becoming unserviceable at 10 years and one day).

 

12 years (minimum) for (cost of first + £180).

15 years (minimum) for (Cost of first + cost of second, both bought new). The cost of the first also needs adjusting for inflation / to today's price.

 

I doubt these are "bottom of the range", so at today's prices : minimum £700 (& likely more, potentially much more!).

Let's go with £700.

 

12 warrantied years for £880. £73.33 / year

15 warrantied years for £1400. £93.33 / year

 

There is a third option that might be open to Miele.

If there terms say they "may replace" the machine : does it also state the nature of the replacement?

If not, is there anything preventing them saying "he's kicking off, let's do a no charge warranty replacement, but with a refurbished machine, with only the original warranty period.

 

You don't get a new machine but equally don't have to pay anything.

They get to limit their responsibility to you to the remaining 3 years of the 10 year warranty but you still get what you originally contracted for, (but no more!)

 

10 warrantied years for £700. £70/ year.

This is less per year than what they are offering and allows you to buy a non-Miele replacement (if it packs in after 3 years).

 

But, the original cost may have been more than £700. Where is the break-even point for original cost?

X cost for 10 years, X + £180 for 12 years. £90 / year, so this becomes less attractive if the original cost exceeds the break-even point of £900 (adjusted) original cost (& many of their machines cost well in excess of this)

 

How much is the cost of an equivalent model to purchase from new today?

What warranty are they offering if you pay the £180?

[unclebulgaria67]

BazzaS I can see how this seems like a good deal, however the machines are supposed to last 20 years on average, so I'd feel pretty slighted to get only 12 years from 2 machines - especially given the low usage (one cycle per week).

 

To get only 7 years from the replacement, would be the end of me as a customer for Miele. I had a chat with their team on Friday, & made them aware I would pay the £180.00, however the complaint was not closed, & I wasn't happy with this. I've just made the payment, & the New machine is due next Wednesday.

 

unclebulgaria67, my Kitchen has 9m2 of clear space, & in their opinion this would be "extremely tight". The engineer said they need so much space, as the machine has to be completely stripped, & there needs to be room for the hoist to get the drum out, I don't think a garage would be big enough.

 

With regards to "under protest dispute complaint", is this a legal term, & what's the best way forward from here? I feel I've been forced into making the payment under duress, as having had no usable machine for over a Month, I have to get a working machine.

 

Under protest as i understand it is used when you are asked to make a payment you don't think should be due. It is registering that you are not happy about making the payment and if necessary may issue a court claim later to recover the amount. What you should do is write to Miele to ask for evidence that the £180 fee is legally due under the 10 year warranty and advise them that if they cannot evidence any contractural term for the £180 fee that they should refund it. Failure to provide evidence for the £180 fee or if no such contract term exists failure to refund the fee, may result in a county court clain being issued.

 

In regard to a washing machine, modern machines won't last 20 years, due to the way they are built with electronic components. In my opinion, if they last 7 years then that is probably about right. Never heard of any manufacture claiming 20 year lifespan.

[gavva1]

Their own website claims they build the machines to last 20 years.

 

Miele Quality

 

For more than 100 years it has been a proven adage that you can trust Miele and rely on our appliances. We are the only manufacturer in our branch of industry to test products such as our washing machines, tumble dryers, dishwashers and ovens to the equivalent of 20 years' use. Once a Miele, always a Miele: Miele customers around the world remain loyal to Miele and recommend Miele to others. Looking to the future, we promise not to entertain any compromises when it comes to the dependability and durability of our appliances.

 

Frankly, I'd expect 10 years from all but the very cheapest brands, my old dear's machine is not a premium brand, gets used daily, & has returned 26 years without fault. This may be extreme luck, however it's going-on 4 times longer than mine has lasted.

 

I maintained the Miele Machine in accordance with the handbook, ran boil-cycles every 4 weeks with the machine empty, used the Beckmanns cleaner 2-3 times per year. The tray was kept clean, filter removed & rinsed every 4-5 uses.

 

The engineer said the reason for the warranty reduction is it's costing them too much, therefore whatever the volume of faults they get, it's clearly more than they're prepared to underwrite.

 

The original machine was £1050, however I bought it carefully from the very cheapest online retailer, (One of the biggest Online Appliance retailers in the UK). The replacement is sold by Miele for £1249, however I've found it for £900, brand new, from this same retailer. At this point, it may sound like I'm getting the bargain of the century, however the fact remains - The First has failed early, the warranty on the second is at best 5 years, maybe only 3, & therefore significantly reduced.

 

It's worth bearing in mind, I could've bought 3 average machines for the original cost + £180.00, had 5 years from each, & be in a much better position than I'm currently in. When you view it from this angle, hopefully you can see that I'm not that impressed.

 

The clarification on the warranty will come once the machine is installed, bearing in mind the complaint is ongoing.

[BazzaS]

The clarification on the warranty will come once the machine is installed, bearing in mind the complaint is ongoing.

 

This suggests to me that you want to get the machine in and only then kick & scream for one of:

a) your £180 back

b) the warranty for the period you want, or

c) both.

 

Otherwise, why not find out what you are agreeing to before you pay / they deliver the machine?

[gavva1]

I've just called the warranty line & had the replacement registered for 5 years,

 

there's no "kicking & screaming" going on here, I wouldn't bother getting stressed over this

- I do want my £180.00 back,

because I feel I've had it taken from me under duress,

due to the fact I was unable to use my old appliance.

 

The Warranty team have advised that for an extra £149, they can extend the warranty from 5 years to 10.

 

I'm going to offer 2 outcomes,

either they extend the warranty FOC, or refund my £180.00.

 

I would prefer the extended warranty, as my faith in Miele isn't great.

[BazzaS]

So you do want the £180 back, or a 10 year warranty after all, and are now going to kick off after you've had the replacement, rather than getting an agreement before accepting the replacement ......

 

I hope they refund the £180, but only when they collect the new machine and bring you a refurbished older machine

[gavva1]

BazzaS,

maybe you're a bit confused, I'm after both.

 

Why all this talk about "kicking & screaming", &"kicking off"?

I don't know how old you are,

in your head,

but there won't be any "kicking off" here sunshine.

 

I've taken preliminary legal advice, & as unclebulgaria67 mentioned, the payment has no legal basis.

 

Please, no more terrace-talk,

I've lost faith in the product,

I want a decent length of Warranty on the replacement,

& I want my money back,

which was taken under financial duress

- is that ok with you?

Or, do you want to "kick-off" & scream about it?

 

They won't be collecting the replacement,

because

- as you may or may not be aware

- it's now my property,

in my house,

& it's not brand-new any more, is it?

 

I Hope, I hope - I hope a big useless Miele drops out of a Window as you're walking beneath, but it won't happen, will it? Unlikely.

 

Christ, as if it should need mentioning, adults-only with the replies, please.

 

Oh, & Don't buy Miele,

they're clearly rubbish now,

even the last Bastion of quality,

German Quality Engineering,

is now lost to us consumers.

 

This is evidenced by the drastically reduced warranty.

 

Built for 20 years, with a 5-year warranty.

So, you may as well pay peanuts for that,

throw it away in a few years when it inevitably fails,

comfortable in the knowledge that you paid nothing for it in the First place, so who cares.

[BazzaS]

You can't retrospectively impose terms on them.

You agreed £180 delivery for a new machine (you gave the consideration of £180, they gave consideration of a new machine with a 5 year warranty and its delivery, rather than the replacement machine of their choice (with the remainder of the original 10 year warranty).

That was your new contract with them.

 

That is why (if there is recission of the new contract) you can get your £180 back and they can give you a refurbished machine & take back the new machine.

 

They MIGHT make a commercial decision to give you the £180 back or the 10-year warranty, just to "be done" with you.

That is however a world away from you being entitled to either.

 

If they don't make that decision and you issue a court claim for one or both : the court is more likely to order them to give you the money than the warranty (courts prefer granting damages rather than 'specific performance'), but it is unlikely you'll get either ("past consideration is no consideration").

 

It wasn't hard to predict your plan was to get the new machine and only then wheedle your further aims / retrospectively impose terms (otherwise you'd have reached such an agreement before delivery) : you aren't going to get that merely by asking nicely : so "kicking and screaming" remains apt.

 

"Duress"? I think your apparent definition of duress and what the courts will see as duress are quite disparate....

[unclebulgaria67]

My two pennyworth as to what is reasonable.

 

Miele offered a warranty for 10 years and therefore for the original purchase price there should have been a working machine for 10 years. As the machine failed after 7 years and the repair was not achieved, then a new machine was provided. Miele need only provide a warranty for the remainder of the original 10 years and not anything more than that.

 

Where this £180 fee is covered in their terms i am not sure and if they can't evidence this was part of the original warranty terms, then they should refund it. You can't really change the warranty terms 7 years later.

 

But if they refund the £180, the replacement machine should only have a warranty for the 3 years left on the original machines warranty. To be refunded £180 and get a new 5 year warranty on the new machine would be asking too much in my opinion. You can ask, but if they don't agree to a standard 5 year warranty on the new machine, there is not much you can do.

[BazzaS]

UB, the OP doesn't want his £180 back and the remainder of the 3 years.

They want their £180 back, and not just the current warranty they've been given on the new machine, but that warranty to be extended to 10 years.

Just to clarify : they've already been given 5 years warranty on the new machine, but that "isn't good enough" (they want 10 years, and the £180 back).

Trying to explain why that isn't reasonable falls on deaf ears, and they quote your input as justification (for, "no legal basis" for the £180)....

 

They didn't clarify the warranty length for their replacement (knowing that it was now 5 years for machines brought from new, retail) before accepting the new machine precisely so they could try to claim "clean hands" and retrospectively impose new terms on Miele....

[unclebulgaria67]

A bit cheeky really. They might get the £180 back, but they don't offer 10 year warranties. If they manage to get the £180 back and a 5 year warranty on the new machine, they will have made a significant gain, that makes up for any recent issues.

[gavva1]

I think that what's cheeky,

in this situation,

is for a Manufacturer to Kick & Scream about a 20-year average lifespan on their appliance,

whilst quietly cutting the warranty period in half from 10 to 5 years.

 

 

For their own employee to state this is due to the high volume of warranty claims they get.

(Anybody who happens across this thread, considering the purchase of a Miele applience, you should definitely think on that).

20 years is clearly far more than they're prepared to underwrite.

 

 

Just to be clear,

in this complaint,

I certainly don't feel as though I've had a massive result from this,

perhaps you see this as unreasonable,

 

 

however I've wasted countless hours & phonecalls dealing with this,

whilst spending over a Month without the use of my washing machine

- this has caused significant hassle for me.

 

At the point where I disagreed with Miele's "Customer experience" Team over the £180.00 charge,

they just went quiet.

For several MORE days.

Their attitude was "take it, or leave it".

that's where we are.

 

 

If the new Machine is warrantied for 10 years,

I still only have 17 years of ACTUAL usage from *2* machines,

as opposed to the claimed 20-year average I could expect from 1 appliance.

 

This being the case,

where has the extra money I spent on a high-end Brand gone?

 

 

Why didn't I just buy a Hotpoint for £300, & when it packs up, bin it & buy another one?

 

 

C'mon, "cheeky", I would say "ripped-off" fits the bill much better.

 

If the Commercial Decision they reach,

is to agree to this,

they can "be done" with me,

then so be it

- I'm very certainly "done with them".