Undertaking/contract for business community membership as part of an organised community

[needadvice1]

hi,

 

i'm joined a community and they want everyone to sign a doc which i personally think is a bit OTT

also leaves me very vulnerable to be sued and kicked out at the drop of a hat.

 

some advice around how legit this doc is and whether someone could actually sue me based on it as i am not sure a judge would see the terms as reasonable.

 

the doc is attached

 

thanks!!!!!

contract.pdf

[unclebulgaria67]

What happens if you don't sign it ?

 

Does that mean you can't join this community program ?

 

This reads like a cult trying to control its community members with a contract. Whilst the terms may appear reasonable i.e not being involved with extremist type politics, they are open to interpretation. For example you might belong to a Trade Union.

 

If in doubt, then don't sign it and if that means you don't join this community, then so be it.

[BazzaS]

Seems a bit "American" (not just legally risk-averse, but also the date format MM/DD/YYYY).

 

What jurisdiction do you live in? What jurisdiction is the organisation based in?

[needadvice1]

What happens if you don't sign it ?

 

Does that mean you can't join this community program ?

 

This reads like a cult trying to control its community members with a contract. Whilst the terms may appear reasonable i.e not being involved with extremist type politics, they are open to interpretation. For example you might belong to a Trade Union.

 

If in doubt, then don't sign it and if that means you don't join this community, then so be it.

 

yeh cult-ish is what i thought too! i believe if i dont sign, i wont be able to join.

 

Seems a bit "American" (not just legally risk-averse, but also the date format MM/DD/YYYY).

 

What jurisdiction do you live in? What jurisdiction is the organisation based in?

 

I'm in the uk, the organisation is in the uk. some of the top guys are american, that may explain the language.

[unclebulgaria67]

yeh cult-ish is what i thought too! i believe if i dont sign, i wont be able to join.

 

I can only guess the type of organisation involved and if i am correct i won't mention them as they may monitor online forums. They may not even be happy that you posted their contract online. As they won't be able to identity you, it won't be a problem.

 

Probably worth staying clear of this type of organisation as it may be difficult to leave after you have joined. Once you commit, then you might find that seem to want paying a lot of money to take part in their programs.

[needadvice1]

dont worry, its not a cult lol. and im not sure what org you're eluding to.

 

can you help me with some of the queries in my original message

i.e. contract vs undertaking?

 

 

how legit is this doc in reality?

for example, clause 12, is that even legal to put in there?

just seems crazy.

 

help!

 

thanks

[45002]

Hello needadvice1

 

Im confused

 

Is this to do with a place your moving into halfway house/hostel or something to do with work/getting a job or something else ?

[BazzaS]

What does this 'community' offer you?.

Is it really worth joining if they expect so much of their members?

[needadvice1]

What does this 'community' offer you?.

Is it really worth joining if they expect so much of their members?

 

well they say it's to protect them as they have been " attacked" recently. its a business community. dont worry, not some freak religious type thing. is this document actually a legit doc?

[stu007]

Well if it is a Business Community and they are asking you to sign that agreement due to what you have mentioned only you can really decide whether to do this.

 

This Business Community you mention are you doing this on a Voluntary Basis?

 

Is this Business Community just that or registered as a Charity?

[BazzaS]

What does this 'community' offer you?.

Is it really worth joining if they expect so much of their members?

 

well they say it's to protect them as they have been " attacked" recently. its a business community. dont worry, not some freak religious type thing. is this document actually a legit doc?

 

My questions still stand.

I wasn't asking if they'd been 'attacked', nor why they want you to sign........ it is still the case that if you sign or not depends on your choice, and what they are offering you (and then if what they are offering is worth the benefit against the risk and hassle).

 

Your initial post didn't make it clear, and it seeemd that you were asking for yourself as an individual. Turns out it is a 'business community' : so, if it is your business that is joining, run it past your business's lawyer!

[unclebulgaria67]

Suggest more information is provided. What company is asking you to sign this document and what other contracts are being entered into ?

 

If this is not a cult, but some US business networking community, then i would want to see what other legal paperwork they are getting you to sign. Don't sign agreements, unless you fully understand all of the terms.

[steampowered]

I read the document and it actually looks reasonable to me. Lots of clubs/societies/organisations have similar documents.

 

I didn't see anything in there which gave me cause for concern.

 

What are you worried about if you sign?

[needadvice1]

I read the document and it actually looks reasonable to me. Lots of clubs/societies/organisations have similar documents.

 

I didn't see anything in there which gave me cause for concern.

 

What are you worried about if you sign?

 

so for example, it says that i cant sue them but they can kick me out and i have no recourse. also the thing about people that i know negatively affecting the group, how many control can i have over this realistically? clause 8 too-i mean, the wording is so loose here, i could say anything and if they deem it as causing doubt, then i get kicked out. many things can cause someone doubt, the most minor comment could do this. clause 12 is very scary too, so if i do something that causes doubt, then suddenly i might be sued for millions and get kicked out. it just feels way too one sided and quite extreme.

[needadvice1]

Suggest more information is provided. What company is asking you to sign this document and what other contracts are being entered into ?

 

If this is not a cult, but some US business networking community, then i would want to see what other legal paperwork they are getting you to sign. Don't sign agreements, unless you fully understand all of the terms.

 

i cannot reveal the company name & nothing else to sign as yet, i do understand everything in the doc, i just think it's very extreme and one sided + quite unnecessary.

[needadvice1]

My questions still stand.

I wasn't asking if they'd been 'attacked', nor why they want you to sign........ it is still the case that if you sign or not depends on your choice, and what they are offering you (and then if what they are offering is worth the benefit against the risk and hassle).

 

Your initial post didn't make it clear, and it seeemd that you were asking for yourself as an individual. Turns out it is a 'business community' : so, if it is your business that is joining, run it past your business's lawyer!

 

yes it is me as an individual. i cant disclose any other details due to confidentiality.

[needadvice1]

Well if it is a Business Community and they are asking you to sign that agreement due to what you have mentioned only you can really decide whether to do this.

 

This Business Community you mention are you doing this on a Voluntary Basis?

 

Is this Business Community just that or registered as a Charity?

 

yes i am aware that i'm the one to decide. my questions are about the document and understadning how legit it is and whether it is totally OTT. also, how strong is this doc in court if they suddenly decide my face doesnt fit and kick me out. it says i cannot sue them-is that really something they can put in a doc like this and even if ive signed it, will that ruling stand? i find it odd that the law would allow for such a clause to stand as it feels like a very basic right is being taken away from me.

[unclebulgaria67]

i cannot reveal the company name & nothing else to sign as yet, i do understand everything in the doc, i just think it's very extreme and one sided + quite unnecessary.

 

Up to you to assess risk and decide whether it is worth it.

 

Write a list of pros and cons thinking of all the possible issues you might face. Then decide whether on balance you benefit from the relationship.

[BazzaS]

i find it odd that the law would allow for such a clause to stand as it feels like a very basic right is being taken away from me.

 

What right is that then?. There are a host of laws relating to how you and the state (or "emanations of the state") interact. Those don't apply for interactions between 2 private bodies, though.

 

There is 'contract law' for where two partied engage in a mutual exchange (and there is offer, acceptance, consideration, and an intent to create a legal relationship).

What I'm not sure about is if there is an exchange of consideration in this situation.

 

They are giving you membership of the 'business community' (which is why you are entering it as a business, not a non-business individual.... why are you joining if you have no business interest?).

 

What consideration (money, or 'money's worth') are you giving them?

Without consideration it isn't a contract, and they are free to boot you out if you breach their rules.... what 'right' do you feel you are loosing?.

If you aren't giving them any 'consideration' you have no 'right' to be a member, it is entirely at their discretion.

[needadvice1]

What right is that then?. There are a host of laws relating to how you and the state (or "emanations of the state") interact. Those don't apply for interactions between 2 private bodies, though.

 

There is 'contract law' for where two partied engage in a mutual exchange (and there is offer, acceptance, consideration, and an intent to create a legal relationship).

What I'm not sure about is if there is an exchange of consideration in this situation.

 

They are giving you membership of the 'business community' (which is why you are entering it as a business, not a non-business individual.... why are you joining if you have no business interest?).

 

What consideration (money, or 'money's worth') are you giving them?

Without consideration it isn't a contract, and they are free to boot you out if you breach their rules.... what 'right' do you feel you are loosing?.

If you aren't giving them any 'consideration' you have no 'right' to be a member, it is entirely at their discretion.

 

ok so to be part of this particular group, there is no money being given by me as such, let me explain further though as it is a little complicated i think. it's just an option that i have based on something that i paid for before that is sort of related. so i paid for that other thing (call it choice 1), and then they said you can do this thing instead (call it choice 2-the community/group choice), i said ok, i would rather choose choice 2 as it seems more attractive an option in terms of the community aspect as well as business.

 

the right i refer to is counter claiming if im taken to court or suing if i am getting taken for a ride or get kicked out for no reason. they could easily sue me for lost earnings which could amount to millions. they will have expensive lawyers no doubt FYI. feels very risky in that sense.

 

what's also interesting actually is that on the document, the name of a ltd co that the agreement is with is not given, its just the name of the "group/community" which i am not sure even has a ltd co behind it. is that normal? should i ask them to define which legal entity the agreement i with? so it's either an agreement with me personally and their ltd co, or it will be me personally and their "group/community name" which i cannot believe is even a legally binding agreement.

 

if no legal entity is given on the document and if we are not aware of the legal entity we are dealing with thru other communications, is this even a "legit" document? and can it be used to sue me?

 

hope that clarifies things?

 

thanks

[steampowered]

so for example, it says that i cant sue them

No, read that clause again more closely. It only says you cannot sue the program management, organiser or their team. There is nothing to stop you from suing the club.

 

This is a very common ckause. It is there to ensure that any claim is brought against the club - rather than against the individuals personally. You will find exactly the same thing in the terms of engagement for any solicitor: it will always say you can only sue the law firm, not the individual solicitor.

 

but they can kick me out and i have no recourse.

The document says they can kick you out 'if I breach any of the undertakings or my conduct falls short of the above guidelines in any way and/or impacts negatively on the community'. That sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

 

Even if you didn't sign anything, the club will be entitled to kick you out at any time. There is no legal protection against being unfairly kicked out of a club. So signing the document doesn't make a jot of difference.

 

also the thing about people that i know negatively affecting the group, how many control can i have over this realistically? clause 8 too-i mean, the wording is so loose here, i could say anything and if they deem it as causing doubt, then i get kicked out. many things can cause someone doubt, the most minor comment could do this.

It is common to have clauses dealing with personal associations. This is so that the club can kick you out if (for example) you are an active member of the BNP.

 

Yes the wording around "doubt" is broad, but I struggle to see how it could be enforced. The reality is that if you fall out with the club you'll probably simply get kicked out.

 

clause 12 is very scary too, so if i do something that causes doubt, then suddenly i might be sued for millions and get kicked out.

Anybody could sue anyone for millions at any time. Of course the court would only award the actual losses the club has suffered as a result of a proven breach of contract or tortious wrong.

 

The club could sue you for negligence/defamation/many other things whether you sign or not, so signing the agreement doesn't actually change much.

 

it just feels way too one sided and quite extreme.

I'm afraid pretty much any club you care to name, and the standard T&Cs for pretty much any business, will have very similar provisions. I don't think there is anything unusual in the document so I think this is a case of "that's life".

[BazzaS]

ok so to be part of this particular group, there is no money being given by me as such, let me explain further though as it is a little complicated i think. it's just an option that i have based on something that i paid for before that is sort of related. so i paid for that other thing (call it choice 1), and then they said you can do this thing instead (call it choice 2-the community/group choice), i said ok, i would rather choose choice 2 as it seems more attractive an option in terms of the community aspect as well as business.

 

the right i refer to is counter claiming if im taken to court or suing if i am getting taken for a ride or get kicked out for no reason. they could easily sue me for lost earnings which could amount to millions. they will have expensive lawyers no doubt FYI. feels very risky in that sense.

 

what's also interesting actually is that on the document, the name of a ltd co that the agreement is with is not given, its just the name of the "group/community" which i am not sure even has a ltd co behind it. is that normal? should i ask them to define which legal entity the agreement i with? so it's either an agreement with me personally and their ltd co, or it will be me personally and their "group/community name" which i cannot believe is even a legally binding agreement.

 

if no legal entity is given on the document and if we are not aware of the legal entity we are dealing with thru other communications, is this even a "legit" document? and can it be used to sue me?

 

hope that clarifies things?

 

thanks

 

No, "too secret squirrel".

 

As for "the right i refer to is counter claiming if im taken to court or suing if i am getting taken for a ride or get kicked out for no reason. they could easily sue me for lost earnings which could amount to millions. they will have expensive lawyers no doubt FYI. feels very risky in that sense."

 

"They could easily sue me for millions" : presumably they'd have to show they had lost millions as a result of your actions.... and you don't have to have signed some bit of paper to be liable to them for losses you unlawfully cause them.

 

"counter claiming" ; counter claiming for what loss?. Apparently, you aren't giving them anything, so what loss could you claim for?.

"taken for a ride" : how can you be taken for a ride if you aren't giving them anything?.

":kicked out for no reason": see above, if it really is a community where you haven't given them anything to be a member, then it is pretty much at their discretion who is a member and who isn't.

 

It sounds like you don't know what you are getting into, and don't want to give us the information needed to give a definitive answer.

Get their permission to show their paperwork AND give all the details to a solicitor who is under a duty of confidence if you are still wanting to proceed, or walk away.

 

It will be nigh on impossible to get a definitive answer here while you are playing 'secret squirrel'.

[needadvice1]

thanks guys. yes i cannot give any more detail than i have already unfortunately.

 

really appreciate the help and i know what i will do.

[unclebulgaria67]

thanks guys. yes i cannot give any more detail than i have already unfortunately.

 

really appreciate the help and i know what i will do.

 

The title of your thread just amused me.

 

Can you join a disorganised community ? Who says it is any more organised than just letting businesses work in the normal way without members signing up to these terms.

[needadvice1]

The title of your thread just amused me.

 

Can you join a disorganised community ? Who says it is any more organised than just letting businesses work in the normal way without members signing up to these terms.

 

its not really that straight forward tbh...

 

and if this thread can be deleted, i would appreciate it.