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The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 states:

 

Box junction means the area of carriageway marked with yellow cross-hatching at a junction between two or more roads…

 

Yellow box junctions seem to apply specifically to road junctions.

 

How does TFL validate PCNs issued with regard to yellow box junctions, outside fire stations, where no road junction is involved?

 

Is there separate legislation, or regulations, regarding this and if so, can anyone let me know what they are?

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The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 states:

 

Box junction means the area of carriageway marked with yellow cross-hatching at a junction between two or more roads…

 

Yellow box junctions seem to apply specifically to road junctions.

 

How does TFL validate PCNs issued with regard to yellow box junctions, outside fire stations, where no road junction is involved?

 

Is there separate legislation, or regulations, regarding this and if so, can anyone let me know what they are?

 

Perhaps they view the access to the main road from the fire station as a road.

 

Have you received a PCN for stopping on a yellow box junction outside a fire station?.

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In west london they randomly paint these useless markings in straight roads with no junction.

Cash cow springs to mind.

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Perhaps they view the access to the main road from the fire station as a road.

 

Have you received a PCN for stopping on a yellow box junction outside a fire station?.

 

If they regard the entrance as a road, how do they do it legally? What legislation empowers them to do that?

 

As it stands the entrance is just a lowered kerb driveway.

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If they regard the entrance as a road, how do they do it legally? What legislation empowers them to do that?

 

As it stands the entrance is just a lowered kerb driveway.

 

You might be right. If you are (and you also have received a PCN and are looking for ways to evade it): I hope TFL are reading this, and cancel the ticket.

 

I also hope they then arrange for a summons under the Emergency Workers (Obstruction) Act 2006 to be sought.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/39/contents.

It'd be a bit of a stretch, as they'd have to make the case they were 'preparing for an emergency', but they could argue that the access is ALWAYS 'prepared for an emergency' as long as there are fire engines in that station.

 

You'd get your victory of having the PCN cancelled, but instead risk a fine of up to £5,000 and a criminal record. What a victory!.

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Surely only a p**** parks on a fire station emergency exit and then demands a loop hole is found to get off the ticket.

 

I agree with the above poster, I hope they cancel the ticket and the ****ty driver get a 5k fine instead.

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Surely only a p**** parks on a fire station emergency exit and then demands a loop hole is found to get off the ticket.

 

I agree with the above poster, I hope they cancel the ticket and the ****ty driver get a 5k fine instead.

 

They haven't parked there, they stopped on the box junction while in traffic, most likely for a few seconds.

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They haven't parked there, they stopped on the box junction while in traffic, most likely for a few seconds.

 

If they stopped on the box junction it was because their exit was obstructed. Hopefully traffic would move for an emergency service vehicle, but this would rely on there being room that traffic to move into....

 

A few seconds delay could make the difference between a fire being controlled and someone losing their home, or a fire in which no firefighter gets injured and one where a firefighter does get injured.

 

I disagree with "cash cow" box junctions.

I agree with heavy enforcement of any 'keep clear' or equivalent where it provides for access / egress from emergency service stations.

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They haven't parked there, they stopped on the box junction while in traffic, most likely for a few seconds.

 

What an idiotic comment.

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They haven't parked there, they stopped on the box junction while in traffic, most likely for a few seconds.

 

 

Would the OP be saying these things if his house was on fire and it took the fire brigade extra minutes to get there because their were cars stopped in the box junction and the engines couldn't get out???

 

No, they would be up in arms saying fine the car owners.

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What an idiotic comment.

 

Coming from you is a compliment.

Nobody deliberately blocks the way of emergency services.

The cash cow comment is directed at the fact that instead of giving people credit for being humans and not apes and let motorists be sensible and respectful like in other civilized countries (Switzerland, Norway, finland, Canada etc), they use millions of rules to fill their coffers.

Councils and TfL make millions out of simple mistakes made by good motorists, all in the name of health and safety or whatever they can come up with.

The result is that motorists caught once become so scared of breaking the rules that they slow the traffic down to a standstill, I'm one of them while driving in town.

Every time I approach a box junction, unless I'm 100% sure that I can fit 2 car length on the other side, I don't move, to much upset of other drivers and the so loved environment.

As a paradox, after my colleague was caught passing a red light to let an ambulance through and getting 3 point because of no recorded emergency, I do not pass a red light even if the queen herself asked me, let alone an ambulance.

We all know that motorists are milked to the bones, no doubt about it, and fining someone for stopping a few seconds on a box junction when there was no emergency services waiting to pass is just an excuse to make money.

On the possibility that a fire engine MIGHT have gone out right at that moment, all suppositions.

Hard fact: The op didn't block anyone, but still needs to pay as I did once.

Cash cow it is.

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"We are given credit for being human beings".. You say..

Driving a car is a privilege not a right. Because you have passed a test presumes your responsible enough to follow the laws and rules of the road.

I'll change your argument slightly so you'll understand.

 

I didn't pay my car insurance because I'm human and humans make mistakes.... I went out and had an accident and killed the other driver and I'm not insured.

 

But its because I'm human, ill pay it today and it will be alright....

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Coming from you is a compliment.

Nobody deliberately blocks the way of emergency services.

The cash cow comment is directed at the fact that instead of giving people credit for being humans and not apes and let motorists be sensible and respectful like in other civilized countries (Switzerland, Norway, finland, Canada etc), they use millions of rules to fill their coffers.

Councils and TfL make millions out of simple mistakes made by good motorists, all in the name of health and safety or whatever they can come up with.

The result is that motorists caught once become so scared of breaking the rules that they slow the traffic down to a standstill, I'm one of them while driving in town.

Every time I approach a box junction, unless I'm 100% sure that I can fit 2 car length on the other side, I don't move, to much upset of other drivers and the so loved environment.

As a paradox, after my colleague was caught passing a red light to let an ambulance through and getting 3 point because of no recorded emergency, I do not pass a red light even if the queen herself asked me, let alone an ambulance.

We all know that motorists are milked to the bones, no doubt about it, and fining someone for stopping a few seconds on a box junction when there was no emergency services waiting to pass is just an excuse to make money.

On the possibility that a fire engine MIGHT have gone out right at that moment, all suppositions.

Hard fact: The op didn't block anyone, but still needs to pay as I did once.

Cash cow it is.

 

You can take it how you want, but its not a compliment.

 

And I'm not scared to drive like you, I dont consider myself a cash cow, and bar a parking ticket when I parked stupidly, I have not been cash cowed for anything else.

The roads have rules, I follow them, I live a peaceful life. Its not difficult to drive on the highways, and if you think it is, then maybe a revisit to a test centre would be a hood idea.

 

And I'm not sure why you quote those other countries, as their parking and enforcement rules ate pretty much the same as ours. That's just a silly argument by someone that probably hasn't even researched, let alone been to any of the above countries.

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You can take it how you want, but its not a compliment.

 

And I'm not scared to drive like you, I dont consider myself a cash cow, and bar a parking ticket when I parked stupidly, I have not been cash cowed for anything else.

The roads have rules, I follow them, I live a peaceful life. Its not difficult to drive on the highways, and if you think it is, then maybe a revisit to a test centre would be a hood idea.

 

And I'm not sure why you quote those other countries, as their parking and enforcement rules ate pretty much the same as ours. That's just a silly argument by someone that probably hasn't even researched, let alone been to any of the above countries.

 

You don't consider yourself a cash cow but, after paying for your car, fuel with all taxes, road tax, insurance, mot and maintenance just to be legally on a public road, they charge you money to park, guess where??? On a public road!

If that's not a cash cow I don't know what it is.

And god forbid you put the corner of one wheel on the parking line... You'll get a ticket!

I mentioned the countries I lived or visited for a longish period of time, so don't need to research.

In those countries, bar the major city centre, you can sensibly park for free anywhere.

Of course if you block a road they'll give you a ticket, but their equivalent tra is much slimmer than ours and unless things changed in the past couple of years, in most of the countries mentioned they don't have junction boxes.

Guess why???

Because the state trusts the sensible motorist to make the right choice and not block the junction.

Instead we are penalised if we make a mistake and leave 2 inches of our car in the box.

You know how it works, so I don't understand why you're defending the undefendable, unless you're one of the guys looking at CCTV and pressing the "guilty" button when someone makes a slight mistake.

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Amendment of Part II of Schedule 19

33.—(1) Part II of Schedule 19 (significance of box junction markings) is amended as follows.

(2) In paragraph 6, for—

“(a) “box junction” means the area of carriageway marked with yellow cross-hatching

at a junction between two or more roads on which there has been placed the road

marking shown in diagram 1043 or 1044; and”

substitute—

“(a) “box junction” means the area of carriageway marked with yellow crosshatching—

 

(i) at a junction between two or more roads;

(ii) at a gyratory system or roundabout;

(iii) where that area of carriageway is not greater than 4.5 metres wide at its

narrowest point; or

(iv) on the length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a

fire, police or ambulance station,

  • Haha 1

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Thanks for that G_and_m

 

"adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a

fire, police or ambulance station"

 

Quick, OP, get round there and check if they have a vehicle entrance round the back!!

Then you'll be wanting to claim the bit you obstructed was the "vehicular exit" not the "vehicular entrance" .... or, you could just pay up and stop obstructing box junctions outside emergency service premises ........

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Thanks for that G_and_m

 

"adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a

fire, police or ambulance station"

 

Quick, OP, get round there and check if they have a vehicle entrance round the back!!

Then you'll be wanting to claim the bit you obstructed was the "vehicular exit" not the "vehicular entrance" .... or, you could just pay up and stop obstructing box junctions outside emergency service premises ........

 

Come on BazzaS.

Don't be judgemental please.

I doubt the op deliberately stopped on the yellow box and maybe he didn't even block full access, but just the first or last bit, hence not compromising any emergency vehicle.

All motorists know how difficult sometimes is to avoid leaving a couple of inches of the car in it in slow traffic.

I agree that there's not much the op can do rather than pay, unless the road markings are incorrect.

He'll need to compare them to the diagrams and if they don't comply ask TfL if they have an exemption, but I think that with emergency access nobody would have any sympathy.

The op will become another very slow driver stopping and waiting for 2 car length to be available on the other side, so to slow the traffic and further pollute the environment, possibly all for the sake of a few inches which did not compromise the emergency vehicles.

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Come on BazzaS.

Don't be judgemental please.

 

Judgemental would be if the OP admitted they'd done wrong, wasn't looking for an 'out' to evade their responsibilities, seemed unlikely to do it again, but continued to be castigated.

 

With no sign of them not being willing to do the same again, and just looking for a way "off the hook" it becomes an issue of explaining why they should consider the potential consequences of such actions, rather than 'being judgemental'.

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Lets go thru your argument.

No it Is not difficult to avoid leaving a couple of inches in slow traffic. Do not enter unless exit is clear ( unless your turning right in the case it is on a junction and not outside a fire station)

Leaving a cars length on the other side of the box junction will not slow ip traffic anymore or pollute anymore. The traffic is already there so it will not pollute anymore

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in London the local council can authorise a normal type of box junction that we are used to,

for anything that is different then TfL applies to the secretary of state for the yellow box of a different type to be authorised.

They then have the same meaning and are covered by the same statutory powers as the normal type.

 

I have said it before though,

I witnessed a car blocking the yellow box outside West Norwood fire station and the fire engine rammed the vehicle out of the way.

 

 

Park on the yellow box at Godstone and they will use your car to practice extrication with cutting gear.

 

 

They used to have a small sign thanking you for the donated vehicle that would undergo this treatment if left there!

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At the end of the day the local autority are not going to put down road markings without the possibility of enforcement for transgressions

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The cash cow comment is directed at the fact that instead of giving people credit for being humans and not apes and let motorists be sensible and respectful like in other civilized countries (Switzerland, Norway, finland, Canada etc), they use millions of rules to fill their coffers.

 

Problem is motorists tend not to be.

 

Take a drive through Birmingham and you'll see without fail on a short journey - speeding, someone jumping a red light, tailgating, using a bus lane to undertake traffic, a car with fogged out numberplates to avoid speed cameras, a car with the front numberplate taken off and put in the windscreen to avoid speed cameras, someone on their phone etc etc.

 

E.g. I was driving to pick up my girlfriend last night, doing a touch under 30 in a 30 zone with average speed cameras, and was being tailgated for about a mile by an old biddy in a Daewoo Matiz who shot me a filthy look at the first chance she got to overtake.

 

On the road where I live you'll also see daily at least one 'race' between (usually) high powered BMWs/Audis/Mercs. I kid you not, I've seen a race down my road (a 40mph dual carriageway) between an Audi R8, a Lambo and a BMW X5, all three of which were weaving in and out of the other traffic... needless to say 40mph wasn't the speed they were travelling.

 

Another more mundane example, I was stood at the bus stop this morning, where over the last few weeks police on foot were flagging down and warning people driving in the bus lane to beat the traffic - seemed to have a visible deterrent effect. Yet today no coppers, and predictably in space of around 5 minutes I counted 16 cars/vans using the bus lane to beat the queue, as well as 4 drivers blatantly using their phones to text (not much else to do but watch the passing traffic whilst you're waiting for the bus with your headphones in).

 

The point is, even with the rules it's as good as a free for all out there. Take the rules away and it'll be chaos unleashed.

 

'let motorists be sensible and respectful' - is never going to happen.

 

[Apologies to the OP, this comment is somewhat irrelevant to the issue, however I noticed the above and felt it needed to be addressed].

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