Horizon ANPR PCN - overstay Sainsburys Canterbury Kent

[deks36]

Received a parking charge notice in the post due to my daughter over staying in Sainsbury's by 16 mins.

she wasn't shopping

in theory deserves what she gets

however the car is registered to me and I think £70 reduced to £40 is excessive and I dislike immensely the tone of the letter.

 

this is an ANPR ticket nothing left on car

The first letter was undated though it states date of issue same date as offence. it shows a picture of arrival and departure

this was received sometime between 28/07/17 and 5/7/17

 

today I have received a reminder notice for payment of £70 dated 24th August

 

should I just continue to ignore or should I deal with it

 

I have ignored them in the past but recognise that things have changed

 

I find the amount excessive and the wording aggressive thanks in advance for advance and apology for asking on whats probably a very common topic

Edited August 26, 2017 by deks36

[dx100uk]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?462118-Have-you-received-a-Parking-Ticket

 

 

please complete the above

[deks36]

please answer the following questions.

 

1 Date of the infringement 26/07/17

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] no date just states date of issue 26/7/17

 

3 Date received approx 23/07

 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [y/n?] not that I can see

 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? yes

 

6 Have you appealed? {y/n?] post up you appeal] no

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up

 

7 Who is the parking company? Horizon parking

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] Sainsburys Canterbury Kent

[dx100uk]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?440334-Horizon-Parking-at-Sainsbury-s

 

 

can you scan up the letter you've received please to PDF

click upload

[honeybee13]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?440334-Horizon-Parking-at-Sainsbury-s

 

 

can you scan up the letter you've received please to PDF

click upload

 

Please redact anything that might identify you, reg number, personal details and so on.

 

HB

[ericsbrother]

presume date of delivery was the 23/8/17, not 3 days before it was sent. Do you have the envelope and if so what is the postmarked date?

 

Parking companies rely on the legal presumption that a letter is deemed delivered 2 days after it was posted so the lazy gits often date a letter on such and such a date and then dont post it out until it is too late but claim otherwise.

 

Now, you will need to contact the DVLA and demand to know who accessed your data, when and for what purpose. I would bet that Horizon DID NOT use the KADOE on the date of the parking offence so their letter claiming they did is untrue. Once you have this information you can start beating them with a legal stick regardless of what the signs at the site say.

 

Now, to opreempt the last point it will be wise to get images of the sigange and the entrance to the car park that is the cause for this demand. I would suspect that a parking co that gets one thing wrong has other bits that aret proper either so we can advise you where they have slipped up once we see the signs.

 

Also, sight of the letter they sent would be useful, rdact yur personal detaisl but leaver on the date, time and place of the event where they are printed to we can see if the follow the protocols of the POFA in their letter (ignoring they have failed to issue in time).

 

So far, little to really worry about but better to hit them hard once than softly several times.

Edited August 26, 2017 by honeybee13
Paras

[deks36]

can't upload images as newbie and don't know how to save it as a pdf or how to upload, I can't even reply with quotes

 

sorry yes 23/8

 

 

thank you for your advice so far

[dx100uk]

you can upload images as PDF

 

 

read the upload

[deks36]

thanks, need to re install software on my mac as printer says no software found for scanner

[deks36]

i must have the only mac that doesn't read things lol scanner is wired but still it won't work

[dx100uk]

use you phone and officelens app

 

 

dx

[deks36]

document received and now uploaded

 

here is the back

 

here is the 2nd letter received

docs1.pdf

[dx100uk]

docs merged and redacted for you - dx

[deks36]

thank you for that

[ericsbrother]

you say this is the second letter,

what does the first one say as this is not POFA compliant.

 

 

I also queried your dates so please correct these so the timeline makes sense.

 

So start again,

date of event,

date of first communication on letter and date actually received ( and post copy of correspondence),

date of second communication and date received. (date of postmark if you havent binned the envelope)

 

next task will be to photograph the signage at the site as they are claiming breach of contract so we need to know what that contract is.

 

 

You may also be chasing up the council planning dept to see if there is anything in the planning application or consent that will allow or disallow Horizon to decide how long customers may park. Often the planning consent forbids this type of limitation.

[deks36]

Both docs are attached and merged to same post the one with the car in it is the first letter received , I also uploaded the second letter dated 24/08 and the reverse terms and conditions on both

 

I can't edit the post with dates on

 

all the letters received are published above

 

there is no date on first letter other than date of offence, cannot remember date it was received circa 29/7

Edited August 27, 2017 by deks36

[ericsbrother]

I am querying how you received a letter between the 28/7 and the 5/7 amongst other things.

Write it all out again with the correct timeline as this is critical to their creation of a keeper liability.

 

you also stated that the date of issue was the same as the date of the offence whereas the one you post up clearly is dated the 26/7

winning and losing these claims for either side is all in the detail.

 

 

They will try and hide important information from you to try an get you to pay up so finding a chink in their armour is a start.

dates.

exact wording of letters,

wording of signs etc

 

 

all give you the advantage if you can show they are procedurally incorrect.

Get your assertions wrong, a slip of the finger on the keyboard etc and you shoot yourself in the foot.

 

contact council about planning applications for parking limits by Sainsburys or to see what the council said on the matter.

It is often 3 hours and not the arbitrary limit set by the parking bandits.

 

 

Trawl back through google and look up Morrisons Caterham for my first foray into this.

The planning consent overrides anything the parking co's agree with the store or cook up for themselves.

If there are stipulations on this you get the council to enforce and complain bitterly to Sainsburys HO to get the signage ripped down as being criminal

[deks36]

please answer the following questions.

 

1 Date of the infringement 26/07/17

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] no date just states date of issue 26/7/17

 

3 Date received approx 29/07

 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [y/n?] not that I can see

 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? yes

 

6 Have you appealed? {y/n?] post up you appeal] no

 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up

 

7 Who is the parking company? Horizon parking

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] Sainsburys Canterbury Kent

[deks36]

ericsborther. as requested i have redone the timeline.

the date of offence was the 26/7 which is also the only date on the original letter.

I checked back through my messages to my daughter who's owns the car to see

 

 

I sent her a message on the day the letter was received which was the 29/7

 

when she returns from her trip I will get her to go over to the car park and photograph the signs

and I will trawl through the city councils planning portal to see what I can find re permission

[ericsbrother]

the letter posted in post #12 clearly says the event was the 20/7/17 and the issue date of the NTK was the 26/7/17.

 

Is this the ORIGINAL letter, if not what does that say?

 

You say you got a reminder, what does that say that makes you think it is a reminder.

 

You must avoid such errors in the future because you will get differnt advice based on what you say that may well be wrong.

 

for example their contacting the DVLA will be witin the normal time frame where if the event was the 26th they couldnt possibly have issued the letter on that date so worth a complaint to the DVLA.

 

You also say that your daughter owns the car but the letters were addressed to you as the keeper.

We are interested in who was the DRIVER and who is the KEEPER, nothing else matters

 

if you are the keeper it is you that they have in the frame as being liable when if we are correct in the reading of their NTK they have faied to create this liability by getting the wording wrong. (failed to identify creditor and there are 3 sainsburys in Canterbury so failed to indicate location of event clearly enough)

 

Pay more attention to the detail please

[deks36]

Firstly my apologies re timings I have indeed made an error and your rantings are correct

 

The car is owned by and driven by my daughter.

However I am the recorded keeper as I purchased the car before handing it over to my daughter.

 

To be clear the insurance company are aware of this and are happy enough as we are related.

 

I accept that as the recorded keeper it is I who they are correctly contacting unless I name my daughter

[ericsbrother]

rantings?

no, you havent seen me rant yet and nor will you.

As for the rest, I made it clear that none of that is relevant to their claim or the POFA so no need to go into further detail.

Now, we have seen one letter issued on the 26th July so post up the other one from the 24th Aug ( the reminder you first mentioned before showing us the origianl NTK)

[deks36]

try again another apology should not have responded from my phone

 

Firstly my apologies re timings I have indeed made an error and your readings are correct

 

The car is owned by and driven by my daughter.

However I am the recorded keeper as I purchased the car before handing it over to my daughter.

 

To be clear the insurance company are aware of this and are happy enough as we are related.

 

I accept that as the recorded keeper it is I who they are correctly contacting unless I name my daughter

 

 

on the PDF attached all 3 documents are there. they were merged by moderator for tidiness reasons I believe

[deks36]

if you scroll down the second letter is on this complete PDF file

docs1.pdf

[ericsbrother]

to note

- on the reminder they stated the cause for their claim

- they failed to do this on the NTK,

so another reason that wasnt a valid NTK under the POFA.

 

What to do?

I would be contacting Sainsburys HO and complaining that they are using contractors that are making claims that break the law and what are they going to do regarding allowing these bandits to harass their customers with unlawful claims?

 

 

let them know that you expect them to instruct Horizon to cancel this immediately and that you have a good reason to sue Horizon for breach of the DPA and when this is circulated it wont do Sainsburys reputation any favours etc.

 

Dont bother contacting Horizon yet, let their masters do your work for you.

 

You will need to make this complaint in writing,

look up the CEO's name and address so it gets to the attention of his PR team.

 

I own shares in the main supermarket chains,

giving the investor relations people an ear bashing can yield quick results

as they dont want you turning up at the AGM and making a fuss