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dual carriageway not a dual carrigeway?? speeding fine help

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HI

I have been sent a Notice of Intended Prosecution.

Annoyingly a camera snapped me doing 43mph in an alleged 30mph area.

 

I am sure, with camera evidence, the allegations are correct.

However, I have double checked the exact area on google map and I am not so sure that the allegation is so finite.

 

The road concerned was 4 lanes, with a iron railings central reservation- 2 lanes each direction.

The route had been built up

- residential/shops, but then the houses and shops disappeared and the road widened and was separated by the central reservation at the point the camera snapped the car.

 

I checked on wiki and it said that some local authorities raised the road limits on such carriageways.

Does anyone think I may have a valid argument?

 

I did not think I was speeding; I actually thought I was below a 50mph limit.

 

I am normally a very careful driver - have kids and need a clean licence for some work I do occasionally.

 

I currently have zero points on my licence.

 

If I intend to contest - do I have to go to court?

There does not seem to be any space on the form to write down any mitigating circumstances.

 

Secondly, if they do 'prosecute' what is the likely £s fine and/or points on licence?

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Go back to the road with a camera and gather evidence of speed signs. Google maps is not always very up to date.

 

If you did commit the offence, ask if you can attend a speed awarness course, rather than have points on your licence.


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I can do that - although it is not local...

 

 

But 2 things -

a) this form does not allow you to write anything other than your personal details

b) the car isn't mine. The form specifies that only the addressee should complete it and must not hand the form to anyone else. The owner lives abroad but it is registered at my address (garaged) and I am on the insurance.

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the NIP simply asks that you identify the driver. If you want to challenge it, then you have to go to court.

 

If you were driving, then fill in the details saying you were the driver, and then challenge it in court if you think its wrong.


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dual carriageway with a physical barrier is 70MPH

must be a local restriction so not very new

google earth should be ok for it

 

 

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/know-how/speeding-fines/


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GSV link? for location.

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But 2 things -

a) this form does not allow you to write anything other than your personal details

b) the car isn't mine. The form specifies that only the addressee should complete it and must not hand the form to anyone else. The owner lives abroad but it is registered at my address (garaged) and I am on the insurance.

 

The owner .... yet the form likely will be addressed to "the keeper". (is it a NIP for the speeding, or a S172 notification, or both....?)

 

Is it to the keeper, and requiring them (under s172, RTA 1988) to identify the driver at the time of the alleged offence?.

 

Are you the keeper? In which case complete the form, identifying yourself as the driver.

Is that the owner? (in which case, they should complete the form...........), or

a third party?, who should complete it.

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First, your two things.

If the NIP is not addressed to you but to the Registered Keeper you should not complete it.

Personally I would contact the issuing office and explain the problem.

Doing nothing will probably end badly as further enquiries are likely to be made and if you are insured to drive the vehicle those enquiries will come your way.

 

Now the speed limit.

The fact that the road is a dual carriageway is not relevant.

Other than a motorway, if the road has a system of street lighting it is subject to a 30mph limit unless a higher limit is indicated by a "terminal" signs and reinforced with a series of repeaters.

 

 

If no such signs exist, a 30mph limit prevails.

Nothing else you mention matters.

If you did not see a terminal sign indicating a change to the limit then you should assume the lower limit remains in force.

 

Your speed is just too fast to be offered a Speed Awareness Course but you should be offered a fixed penalty (£100 and three points) for the offence.

 

 

But your most important problem at the moment is sorting out responding to the NIP which has been sent to somebody who isn't there.

  • Haha 1

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Dual carriageways can carry all sorts of speed limits. When I hit the A1 going down through Bedfordshire the speeds change so often you can lose track if not a regular traveller. They range from 30 40 50 60 and 70 shooting down to 50 again.

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On Google maps I can see signs on posts of camera - but no speed limit on same post.

 

I clearly wasn't paying too much attention.

I never speed as I live in a city where it's impossible to speed and I'm normally very careful even when I go towards motorways and the speed changes to 50.

 

I'm just not sure what happened here

- other than subconsciously I did not consider the road to be a 30mph carriageway as it had a central res barrier.

It was early AM and bright

- so I would not have paid attention to if there were lights or not

 

Bazza

- I don't have the letter with me so can't confirm the type now.

 

But the reverse of the letter there were 3 options

- one of which gave the owner the opportunity to reply who the driver was at the time.

 

Should I reply to the letter as if I am the owner - and submit my own details?

 

then the police can chase me correctly?

If their complaint is ultimately against me / not the owner

- will it be OK to do this.

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Personally I would phone them up, explain the situation and ask them what you should do.

Get the name of the person who advised you.

 

In normal circumstances you should not reply to a notice that is not addressed to you.

If you really don't want to do that then complete the form, naming yourself as the driver and enclose a covering letter explaining that you are not the Registered Keeper and he is not available to deal with the matter.

 

They are interested in getting an admission that you were driving the vehicle at the time of the alleged offence.

Keep a copy of the form you fill in and the letter you write and get a free "Proof of Posting" certificate from the Post Office.

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I can do that - although it is not local...

 

 

But 2 things -

a) this form does not allow you to write anything other than your personal details

b) the car isn't mine. The form specifies that only the addressee should complete it and must not hand the form to anyone else. The owner lives abroad but it is registered at my address (garaged) and I am on the insurance.

 

So you're committing insurance fraud by "fronting" then?

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So you're committing insurance fraud by "fronting" then?

 

The keeper's requirement is for insurance to be continuously maintained (unless the car is SORN'ed). The keeper does not have to be the owner, nor does either keeper or owner have to equal 'the main driver'.

 

So Mr Joe Bloggs, who is divorced from Mrs Bloggs, can be the registered keeper of the car bought / paid for by Mrs Bloggs (after the divorce and its finances were completed) for their 17-year old son Fred, who is its main driver.

 

Fred is its main driver but they've addded his older sister Brenda (who is 30, been driving for 13 years claim free and who has more than 7 years NCD) to the insurance to help lower the premium.

 

Listing Brenda as the main driver when she isn't would be fronting.

Adding her as a second driver and stating Joe to be the main driver would be entirely legitimate.

 

So, wouldn't the case for if the OP is 'fronting' depend on who is named as the main driver, and who really is the main driver?

It might be fronting, but equally might not : we don't yet have the information on which to draw a conclusion?

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Gosh - this thread took a 'sinister diversion!!

 

For clarity:

The owner moved temp overseas and as I had an empty garage I garaged it for free.

As time went by friend suggested I drive it to keep the engine ok.

 

I don't drive it all the time - it sat in the garage for 18months undriven

- but then I had to call Recovery truck as the battery was dead.

So it does make sense to drive occasionally.

 

Friend is still the owner and main insured.

I am just a named Driver on friends policy.

 

As many years have now passed,

I now cover the costs of maintenance,

do the MOT, and renew the road tax.

Friend pays the insurance.

It's registered at my place for exactly things like this

- so if there is any issue I can open the mail and resolve.

 

In this instance I got caught speeding - so I need to resolve.

 

Friend wants to ship it to his place - but just never seems to get round to it.

 

I don't really understand 'fronting' but there's nothing weird going on here.

 

Ganymede I guess you were having a bad day when u wrote your post above :-(

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Don't trouble yourself about the "fronting" issue. It is unlikely to be a problem provided you get the speeding matter resolved without complications. Have you spoken to the ticket office yet?

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Not yet...

On 'to do' list this week...

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Good. I don't know when the request for information was delivered but obviously it was on or before 19th August. It is presumed to have been delivered two days after it was sent so you need to bear in mind that you have until 16th September at the latest for a satisfactory response to that request to be made. If no such response is made by then that is when things begin to get tricky.

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I dealt with the paperwork sent to friend for my 'offence'.

Now I have been sent the same form 'Notice of Intended Prosecution'

- but this time addressed to me.

I have to fill in Sect.1 and return it within 28 days.

 

According to their camera I was just above the tolerance - 42 is the max tolerance in a 30mph zone.

Am I likely to have to go to court because I was over their set tolerance?

 

Am I likely to receive a heavy fine? If so, do they offer payment terms due to low income?

 

May they still offer the driver awareness course, despite being just over their tolerance, as it is a first speeding offence?

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tolerance is a guideline.

 

 

They can stop prosecute if you're 1 mph over.

you were 12 over the speed limit.

Thats enough to kill someone.

It is extremely likely they will continue the prosecution.

Remember, the limit is 30. Not 40.

 

Youll only go to court if you plead not guilty or they choose to discontinue it.

 

its a set fine and points. Normally 100 fine and 3 points.

 

Youll get an awareness course if you are within a certain range, and havent had another course in the last 3 years.


Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

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Thanks

I understand the severity of driving above the limit

- but it was a dual carriageway and I actually thought I was driving under the limit.

 

 

The road was identical to a road near my home

- two lanes either side of iron railings central reservation

- which has a 40mph limit leading into 50mph.

 

 

I saw camera signs but no 30mph signs.

I wrongly considered that the road would be either 40 or 50 mph.

That said, I don't fancy a day in court and would take the course - if offered.

I just hope they don't give me more points or higher fine???

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They wont care. The limit was marked, and you were 10 mph over. Best bet would be to see if you can get any proof of no markings, as if you went to court to challenge it, youd need it.

 

As i said, the course may be offered, but only if you meet certain criteria. That criteria is: You haven't been convicted of any other speeding offences in the past three years. You've been caught driving over 10% plus 2mph of the limit, but below 10% plus 9mph. In a 30mph zone, this means anything between 35mph and 42mph, while in a 70mph zone it means anything between 79mph and 86mph.

 

If you plead not guilty, then the penalty will be more substantial and the awareness course wont be offered.


Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

:D

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According to their camera I was just above the tolerance - 42 is the max tolerance in a 30mph zone.

Am I likely to have to go to court because I was over their set tolerance?

Am I likely to receive a heavy fine? If so, do they offer payment terms due to low income?

May they still offer the driver awareness course, despite being just over their tolerance, as it is a first speeding offence?

 

The guidelines (and they are guidelines, not commandments!) give you an idea what to expect

 

The speed guidelines set out by what was ACPO suggest (for a 30 mph limit) some form of penalty for 35mph or more, and they MIGHT offer a speed awareness course up to 42 mph.

 

They don;t have to, and if it is felt "education not appropriate", then one could be given a FPN for 35 mph+.

Above 42 mph a summons should be expected, and for 50mph and above is almost inevitable.

 

So, expect a summons.

Following the Magistrates Court Sentencing guidelines, the 'starting point' for 43 in a 30 is "Band B fine" AND "Disqualify 7-28 days OR 4-6 points".

 

Fines are set with maximum LEVELS by statute

(so someone earning gazillions will have their fine capped unless it is an 'unlimited' fine : the top level of fine can now be unlimited...........),

but the "BAND" part of the fine takes into account low income.

 

Band B has a 'starting point' of 100% of 'relevant weekly income', and a range of 75-125%

For many people on low income (or benefits) this 'relevant weekly income' gets defined at £120, and doesn't get reduced

e.g. for having dependents (unless your outgoings are high for exceptional reasons).

 

You'd get a reduction (one third?) for a guilty plea, and they can add costs (if sought), while you should expect a 'victim surcharge' too.

 

Make sure you submit a means form, and ask for time to pay.

From the MCSG,

 

When allowing payment by instalments payments should be set at a realistic rate taking into account the offender’s disposable income. The following approach may be useful:

 

Net weekly income

 

 

Suggested starting point for weekly payment

 

 

£60 £5

£120 £10

£200 £25

£300 £50

£400 £80

 

If the offender has dependants or larger than usual commitments, the weekly payment is likely to be decreased.

They usual maximum period over which a fine can be paid by installments is one year.

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Youll only go to court if you plead not guilty or they choose to discontinue it.

its a set fine and points. Normally 100 fine and 3 points.

 

That is if they choose to issue a FPN. They might, but (see my recent post) OP should expect a summons. If they offer an FPN : grab it with both hands!

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"dual carriageway with a physical barrier is 70MPH"

 

Not even remotely close...

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