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Hi everyone.

 

New to this forum and I'm hoping someone can help?

 

We hand a visit from a [edited] of Rossendales the other day trying to collect outstanding council tax.

 

Fortunately I wasn't in but my husband was!

he told my husband that there was an outstanding amount to pay of £508!!!! that he was there to collect that day.

 

My husband works away and explained that I wasn't there and didn't know anything about it.

 

What my husband did say however was that Mr had an aggressive air about him and was insistent that he was there to collect or take control of goods

 

The piece of paper he handed him looked very shoddy hand written with a full amount and no break down along with the threat of "You do not need to be present for an Enforcement Agent to remove your goods" in red letters.

 

This all stems from a missed payment to the council from last year.

we had paid 9 payments out of 10

we had been behind in two other months but made it up almost straight away.

 

when I last contacted the council they advised me that the amount was still outstanding and would have to be paid "by arrangement" on the following years council tax.

 

I deal with the bills as my husband is usually away and had recently changed my mobile phone. The reason for telling you that will become clear shortly.

 

Not wishing for the sympathy vote but last year was a torrid time for out family, especially my husband, as his sister was killed in a horrific car accident in the south of France her daughter was in the car at the same time, but, she thankfully survived all be it with life changing injuries!

 

Since this my husband has been under counselling and medication and has really struggled to come to terms with this.

This has had a knock on effect within the family and its been very tough.

 

Which lead to being off work and a reduction in income hence the missed payments, although they were always brought up to date.

 

As a result I forgot to set up the payment plan for the outstanding amount and the council gave us a liability order.

 

I intended to pay it but never quite got there.

The result is that now its in the hands of Rossendales.

 

Having trawled through the forums it appears that certain rules and criteria have to be met but I'm not sure they have been! we have not received the Notice of Enforcement and they have moved straight to Enforcement and NTK.

 

For the record where we live there are three addresses with the same number road name and postcode bar the last two letters.

 

We constantly have trouble getting our post and regularly have to swap with one of them but the other never passes on anything! We have had cards containing gift vouchers and money etc and also credit and bank cards that have never turned up!!!!!!

Not to mention ordinary mail going missing.

 

My point is that we have not had the Notice of Enforcement

how can they proceed to NTK?????

 

The NTK contains no Date or time or time scale to pay!

 

I contacted the council who were about as much use as a chocolate fireguard and would not talk to me and said id have to talk to the Enforcement Agent when I pushed them they said that they had been trying to contact me but it was on my old number!

 

I then rang rossendales who said the same and said I wanted to set up an arrangement but they declined and said Mr wouldn't be able to either.

whats the point of speaking to him?

 

My husband has wrote to both the council and Rossendales.

He has informed Rossendales that they have not followed NS and are not at liberty to enforce and that we don't have any obligation to deal with them!

is this correct?

 

He has also written to the council asking them to take the debt back as he believes they haven't followed NS with a payment proposal of only two payments over two months for the original debt, one of which we have already paid on line to the council, and that if they don't he will escalate to the ombudsman.

Are we within our right to complain?

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated :sad:

Edited by honeybee13
Bailiff name removed

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Hello there.

 

I've moved your thread to the main bailiffs forum, please continue to post here. :)

 

HB


Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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what an NS & A NTK got to do with CTAX?


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Yes His name is on the LO and bills. Why do you ask?

 

As for the Council there was little contact and we have been paying our council tax for the current year which is up to date.

 

The post issue has been ongoing for Ten plus years!!!!

 

No he didn't gain access my husbands quite a imposing figure when stood in a doorway!

 

Sorry as I said earlier I'm new to this and I'm not quite sure of all the terminology!

 

But NS is National standards as far as I'm aware and every government dept. has to ensure that standards are met by not just themselves but the contractors they employ!

 

The NTK (Which is probably wrong) is the notice to take control. But I thought they couldn't do this without first giving you a Notice of enforcement!

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Sorry a bit at crossed purposes as my heads all over the place!

 

The council tax is in joint names

 

. Its ironic that my husband is on leave at the moment other wise Mr [removed] would have probably terrorised our 13 year old daughter!!!!!!!!

Edited by honeybee13
Bailiff name edited

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Hello there.

 

I've removed the bailiff's name from your posts. We don't need to know that in order to advise you and it keeps things anonymous for you.

 

HB


Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Hi everyone.

 

New to this forum and I'm hoping someone can help?

 

We hand a visit from a [edited] of Rossendales the other day trying to collect outstanding council tax.

 

What my husband did say however was that Mr had an aggressive air about him and was insistent that he was there to collect or take control of goods

 

The piece of paper he handed him looked very shoddy hand written with a full amount and no break down along with the threat of "You do not need to be present for an Enforcement Agent to remove your goods" in red letters.

 

I deal with the bills as my husband is usually away and had recently changed my mobile phone. The reason for telling you that will become clear shortly.

 

The result is that now its in the hands of Rossendales.

 

Having trawled through the forums it appears that certain rules and criteria have to be met but I'm not sure they have been! we have not received the Notice of Enforcement and they have moved straight to Enforcement and NTK.

 

For the record where we live there are three addresses with the same number road name and postcode bar the last two letters.

 

We constantly have trouble getting our post and regularly have to swap with one of them but the other never passes on anything! We have had cards containing gift vouchers and money etc and also credit and bank cards that have never turned up!!!!!!

 

My point is that we have not had the Notice of Enforcement how can they proceed to NTK?????

 

 

The NTK contains no Date or time or time scale to pay!

 

I contacted the council who were about as much use as a chocolate fireguard and would not talk to me and said id have to talk to the Enforcement Agent when I pushed them they said that they had been trying to contact me but it was on my old number!

 

 

I then rang rossendales who said the same and said I wanted to set up an arrangement but they declined and said Mr wouldn't be able to either.

whats the point of speaking to him?

 

My husband has wrote to both the council and Rossendales.

He has informed Rossendales that they have not followed NS and are not at liberty to enforce and that we don't have any obligation to deal with them!

is this correct?

 

He has also written to the council asking them to take the debt back as he believes they haven't followed NS with a payment proposal of only two payments over two months for the original debt, one of which we have already paid on line to the council, and that if they don't he will escalate to the ombudsman.

 

Are we within our right to complain?

 

The complaint appears to be down to one point only and that is the absence of the initial letter from Rossendales called the Notice of Enforcement. That letter is a vitally important one because it provides the opportunity to enter into a payment proposal without the need for an enforcement visit and with it, an enforcement fee of £235 being added.

 

The problem that you face with a complaint about non receipt of the Notice of Enforcement (or any other document for that matter) is that as long as the document was correctly addresses, then it is deemed as being served unless proof can be provided otherwise (Section 7 of the Interpretation Act).

 

The enforcement does not appear to have 'taken control' of any goods (listed goods on a Controlled Goods Agreement) so that is a bonus at least. I am assuming on this point that a motor vehicle was not parked on the driveway.

 

It is important to mention whilst writing about events before Rossendales had been instructed. Before getting to the very late stage, you should have received notification from the council that your council tax had defaulted. If the default had not been remedied, a summons would have been issued.

 

Did you receive the summons?

 

Did you contact the council?

 

PS: The notice that the enforcement agent left (the NTK as you call it) is not a statutory document and as such, the wording on it does not need to be in accordance with any legislation.

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Yes we did receive the liability order. But it was in August of last year and we had paid after this. Can they invoke the liability order at a later date?

 

I didn't contact the council as a thought the outstanding amount which was for only one month would be added to this years bill!

 

Finally, yes there is a car on the drive but its on finance so can they take control of this? I ask as I'm an avid watcher of Can pay we'll take it away and it always seems to be that if there's finance on it they cant take it! I must say that the High court Bailiffs' seem like great guys and private EA's would do well to conduct themselves in the same way, as reading some posts on here it appears they think they can do what they like!

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The council doesn't have to pass the LO to bailiffs immediately, if regular payments are ongoing. Might be an idea to move the car as a precaution.


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Hi everyone.

 

He told my husband that there was an outstanding amount to pay of £508!!!! that he was there to collect that day.

 

My husband has wrote to both the council and Rossendales.

He has informed Rossendales that they have not followed NS and are not at liberty to enforce and that we don't have any obligation to deal with them! is this correct?

 

He has also written to the council asking them to take the debt back as he believes they haven't followed NS with a payment proposal of only two payments over two months for the original debt, one of which we have already paid on line to the council, and that if they don't he will escalate to the ombudsman.

Are we within our right to complain?

 

As a complaint has now been made, you will have to wait the outcome.

 

As I had mentioned in my earlier post, a payment arrangement should be set up during what is called the 'Compliance stage'..

...this is the period from receipt of the Notice of Enforcement to the date provided on the notice by when payment must be made

 

. One point that you should take on board is that a 'payment arrangement' in any event, is usually only for a very short period of time (normally around 3 months).

 

On the subject of the motor vehicle, you need to be very cautious indeed and it's best not to take too much notice of the TV programme that you mentioned (Can't pay we'll take it away').

 

Unlike in the case of a parking related debt where the number plate of the vehicle features on the warrant, the position with council tax debts, is that the enforcement agent will not be aware of the existence of a vehicle until a personal visit is made.

 

Without the number plate he would not not have been able to run an HPI and DVLA search before the visit.

 

Lastly, I notice that in your husband's complaint he has stated that he is not under any obligation to deal with the bailiff and furthermore, that he wants the account returned to the council. I would not hold out any hope of the council recalling the account. Mainly, this is because of Section 11 of the Taking Control of Goods National Standards that states the following:

 

11. Creditors agreeing the suspension of a warrant or making direct payment arrangements with debtors must give appropriate notification to and should pay appropriate fees due to the enforcement agent for the work they have undertaken.

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I see that the council did not promise to add the outstanding amount to the next month's payment as said earlier by another member, but you thought they would, so although this is a perfectly natural assumption to make, it can't be included in any complaint.

 

THe council is not required to consult with you about the method of enforcement used,

 

You have to remember also that national standards are not law, it is only guidelines and does not bind the action of the bailiffs or the authority.

It is nevertheless worth mentioning in any complaint as it serves to remind the parties of the acceptable standards of behavior.


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The complaint is very clearly twofold. Firstly that a repayment plan has been flatly refused and secondly the no NoE has been received.

 

One would hope that a request to pay over 2 or 3 months will be accepted. As stated previously, the NoE issue is a little tougher and may well require further proof. However, now a complaint has gone in, nothing more can be done until the outcome of the complaint has been revealed. If the council told you that they were going to add the extra month to next years bill bus subsequently didn't, then this may be worth questioning as well. Again, it is too late at this point and should be re-considered if the complaint outcome is not favourable.

 

A liability order does not have a shelf life although a debtor may question it, if it has lain dormant for more than 6 years. It will be interesting to discover what has gone one in the 12 months prior to Rossendales calling though.

 

A car on finance is not safe from enforcement. Only cars that are still owned by the original company (ie lease cars, HP cars etc) are safe from enforcement.

 

Thanks Alreadyexsits.

 

I work as a community care worker and use my car for work.

 

I've looked through some threads and according to them if a show evidence that its is insured as such this is proof

 

. Also ive got a settlement figure and a valuation and the car is worth £2500 less than I owe:jaw:

 

So, although I'm not sure I would think they couldn't do anything with that.

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Dodgeball & Bailiff Advice

 

My husband has just read your reply and his question is this. How can they rely on National Standards yet we cannot? There must be balance!

Edited by Sarah01977

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Dodgeball & Bailiff Advice

 

My husband has just read your reply and his question is this. How can they rely on National Standards yet we cannot? There must be balance!

 

Hi Sarrah, how does the authority rely on the NS ?


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Bankruptcy, yes. I think in reality we are talking about attachments of earnings or bailiff action.

 

The car is not exempt because you use it too and from work, of course, it is however under finance with negative equity, so it should be safe.

 

I missed the bit where the OP said the authority had given a promise to add the month's charge to the next statement, could you point it out, please.

 

The LGO has no power to enforce what it"expects".


DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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Dodgeball & Bailiff Advice

 

My husband has just read your reply and his question is this. How can they rely on National Standards yet we cannot? There must be balance!

 

A very good question and thank you for raising it. It would help if you can identify which specific part of the National Standards that you and your husband have an issue with.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/353396/taking-control-of-goods-national-standards.pdf

 

When the Taking Control of Goods Regulations were finally implemented in April 2014 (after 8 years of consultation) they contained a very significant provision and one that has never existed before over the hundreds of years that bailiffs have been around. The specific provision is for a payment arrangement to be set up in order to avoid the need for the bailiff to visit and to enforce a warrant by seizing goods. A payment arrangement at this stage would also of course avoid an enforcement fee of £235 being added.

 

When the Taking Control of Goods Regulations were introduced, additional regulations also became law on the same day outlining the fees that can be charged. This regulation is the Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014. As with all regulations, they are supported by what is called an Explanatory Memorandum (which is also a statutory notice). This memorandum outlines the legislation in simple terms. Particular attention should be given to the following clauses from the Memorandum:

 

7.2 It supports the concept of
early compliance
and greater proportionality by
providing the debtor with the opportunity to make payment or enter into an agreed payment plan at the compliance stage.

 

8.3: we have introduced an incentive to enter into an agreement without taking control of goods at the (earlier)
compliance stage
which avoids triggering the enforcement stage with its larger fee.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014/1/pdfs/uksiem_20140001_en.pdf

 

The problem that seems to have happened in your case, is quite simply that as you had not received the initial notice from Rossendales (the Notice of Enforcement) you were not able to enter into a payment arrangement and accordingly, in the absence of any contact from you, the debt has been passed to an individual enforcement agent whose role is to 'take control of goods'. Contrary to other opinion, his role is not to enter into a payment arrangement.

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Already exists.

 

Yes I do need my car for work.

We also live in a Village with hardly any bus service.

 

Due to council cut backs, the bus service has been cut from every half hour to every four hours, and we only get one train a day!

It is nigh impossible to get anywhere without a car!

 

it really annoys me that our local authority charges some of the highest council tax in the UK but we seem to get nothing for it!!!!!!!!! What little we did get has been withdrawn!!!!

 

On top of that both myself and husband work antisocial hours and my husband has a 20+ mile journey to work across authority boundaries!!!!! try making that journey.

 

Even if there was a bus you would have to leave at 3:30 in the morning to get there for 6:00 its just not practical!!!!

Edited by Sarah01977

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Dodgeball

 

I use my car for getting to and from clients houses in a rural area so yes I do need it for my job! without it no job! My husband can work up to 15 hours at a time so without it he would have to leave his employment! How would that help?

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Already exists.

 

Yes I do need my car for work. We also live in a Village with hardly any bus service. Due to council cut backs, the bus service has been cut from every half hour to every four hours, and we only get one train a day! It is nigh impossible to get anywhere without a car! it really annoys me that our local authority charges some of the highest council tax in the UK but we seem to get nothing for it!!!!!!!!! What little we did get has been withdrawn!!!!

 

On top of that both myself and husband work antisocial hours and my husband has a 20+ mile journey to work across authority boundaries!!!!! try making that journey. Even if there was a bus you would have to leave at 3:30 in the morning to get there for 6:00 its just not practical!!!!

 

Makes no difference as regards to the enforcement power, unfortunately, it would not fall into the requirement for work exemption.

 

I am interested to know what you mean by "on finance", strictly speaking, this means a finance agreement which stands separately to the car, it was money loaned to by a car.

However, you refer to settlement figures and sums remaining in accordance with the vehicle, which would indicate a hire purchase agreement. It does make a difference regarding whether the bailiff can take it, could you clarify, please.


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Dodgeball

 

I use my car for getting to and from clients houses in a rural area so yes I do need it for my job! without it no job! My husband can work up to 15 hours at a time so without it he would have to leave his employment! How would that help?

 

|Sorry crossed posts, in that case, it could fall into the exempt category, is the car exclusively for work use?

 

To be fair this is not the impression you give in your earlier post, where you talk about transport" to" work.


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Dodgeball

 

I use my car for getting to and from clients houses in a rural area so yes I do need it for my job! without it no job! My husband can work up to 15 hours at a time so without it he would have to leave his employment! How would that help?

 

Even if a vehicle is used for work, the regulations are specific in that a vehicle will be considered exempt.....as long as it's value is below £1,350.

 

This part of the regulations really does hamper individuals with some specific areas of employment (such a mini cab operators) who would be expected (for health and safety reasons) to have a fairly decent vehicle. Most black cabs (Hackney Carriages) are exempt but this is purely because most are provided on a weekly or monthly rental basis.

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Dodgeball

 

The car is on HP and was bought with a small deposit on a 5 year agreement. I'm two years in and the value of the car is approximately 33/35% of its new price. Car values have collapsed over the last two years! As I said its probably £2500 in negative at the minute. So how can there be any interest, or value, in it to myself?

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Dodgeball

 

The car is on HP and was bought with a small deposit on a 5 year agreement. I'm two years in and the value of the car is approximately 33/35% of its new price. Car values have collapsed over the last two years! As I said its probably £2500 in negative at the minute. So how can there be any interest, or value, in it to myself?

 

There isn't, they can't take it, or more accurately they will not, s long as they are made aware it is under HP.


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Thank You alreadyexists.

 

This is the letter we have sent via email, with a delivered and read flag, post and have a copy to hand to the EA if he turns up again.

 

Funnily enough about three hours after they read it the EA tried to call me and left a message to call him back! I haven't done so far as we are waiting for the council.

 

This letter was based on the fact that we believe we are right to challenge the delivery of the "Notice of enforcement" due to circumstances outlined in the thread.

 

Should it be required the people that we do swap post with will be more than happy to make a written statement to this effect.

 

Rossendales

PO Box 324

Rossendale

BB4 0GE

 

Your Reference: xxxxxxxxxx

Dear Mr xxxxxxxx/Rossendales

xxxxxxxxx District Council appears to have instructed you to recover unpaid council tax from us.

 

This letter gives you notice that you are not being given peaceful entry to our home or to levy goods contained within and we will not be signing anything for you. This notice revokes your eligibility to charge a Walking Possessions fee or other fee relating to the handling of goods.

 

Due to my circumstances we are unable to pay the debt as you demanded because it is unrealistic. We have sent an affordable payment direct to the council along with a written schedule of repayments.

 

Please be advised it is not a "criminal offence" for us to deny a bailiff entry to our property, the law says we have to settle the debt; it does not obligate us to do business with you. If you suggest to us otherwise we will automatically report you to the police and you may receive a criminal record.

 

WE ARE NOT REFUSING TO PAY THIS DEBT.

 

Meanwhile please provide us with a written breakdown of your fees you have demanded and put it through the letterbox and quietly leave the property. If your fees are found to contradict Regulation 45(2) of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 we will automatically file a Form 4 complaint against you at your certificating court for attempting to defraud us under Sections 2 and 4 of the Fraud Act 2006.

 

This document was served to you directly,email and a copy sent to the above address along with a copy sent to HEAD OF council tax Recovery Dept.

 

Please also supply me with a breakdown of the fee's you have charged me

 

Yours Faithfully

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