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    • Thank you for that "read me", It's a lot to digest, lots of legal procedure. There was one thing that I was going to mention to you,  but in one of the conversations in that thread it was mentioned that there may be spies on the Forum,  this is something that I've read quite some time ago in a previous thread. What I had in mind was to wait for the thirty days after their reply to my CCA request and then send the unenforceable letter. I was hoping that an absence of signature could be the Silver Bullet but it seems that there are lot of layers to peel on this Onion.  
    • love the extra £1000 charge for confidentialy there BF   Also OP even if they don't offer OOC it doesn't mean your claim isn't good. I had 3 against EVRi that were heard over the last 3 weeks. They sent me emails asking me to discontinue as I wouldn't win. Went infront of a judge and won all 3.    Just remember the law is on your side. The judges will be aware of this.   Where you can its important to try to point out at the hearing the specific part of the contract they breached. I found this was very helpful and the Judge made reference to it when they gave their judgements and it seemed this was pretty important as once you have identified a specific breach the matter turns straight to liability. From there its a case of pointing out the unlawfullness of their insurance and then that should be it.
    • I know dx and thanks again for yours and others help. I was 99.999% certain last payment was over six years ago if not longer.  👍
    • Paragraph 23 – "standard industry practice" – put this in bold type. They are stupid to rely on this and we might as well carry on emphasising how stupid they are. I wonder why they could even have begun to think some kind of compelling argument – "the other boys do it so I do it as well…" Same with paragraph 26   Paragraph 45 – The Defendants have so far been unable to produce any judgements at any level which disagree with the three judgements…  …court, but I would respectfully request…   Just the few amendments above – and I think it's fine. I think you should stick to the format that you are using. This has been used lots of times and has even been applauded by judges for being meticulous and clear. You aren't a professional. Nobody is expecting professional standards and although it's important that you understand exactly what you are doing – you don't really want to come over to the judge that you have done this kind of thing before. As a litigant in person you get a certain licence/leeway from judges and that is helpful to you – especially if you are facing a professional advocate. The way this is laid out is far clearer than the mess that you will get from EVRi. Quite frankly they undermine their own credibility by trying to say that they should win simply because it is "standard industry practice". It wouldn't at all surprise me if EVRi make you a last moment offer of the entire value of your claim partly to avoid judgement and also partly to avoid the embarrassment of having this kind of rubbish exposed in court. If they do happen to do that, then you should make sure that they pay everything. If they suddenly make you an out-of-court offer and this means that they are worried that they are going to lose and so you must make sure that you get every penny – interest, costs – everything you claimed. Finally, if they do make you an out-of-court offer they will try to sign you up to a confidentiality agreement. The answer to that is absolutely – No. It's not part of the claim and if they want to settle then they settle the claim as it stands and don't try add anything on. If they want confidentiality then that will cost an extra £1000. If they don't like it then they can go do the other thing. Once you have made the amendments suggested above – it should be the final version. court,. I don't think we are going to make any more changes. Your next job good to make sure that you are completely familiar with it all. That you understand the arguments. Have you made a court familiarisation visit?
    • just type no need to keep hitting quote... as has already been said, they use their own criteria. if a person is not stated as linked to you on your file then no cant hurt you. not all creditors use every CRA provider, there are only 3 main credit file providers mind, the rest are just 3rd party data sharers. if you already have revolving credit on your file there is no need to apply for anything just 'because' you need to show you can handle money. if you have bank account(s) and a mortgage which you are servicing (paying) then nothing more can improve your score, despite what these 'scam' sites claiml  its all a CON!!  
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Eon claimform - disolved Ltd Co. util Bill


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eon are using LCS ( debt collector) to chase for Limited company debt,

company no longer trading - Dissolved in February 2016

 

eon have changed the name on correspondence from "XXX Limited co" to ( Directors name T/A XXX )

 

i wrote back to LCS stating LTD company is separate legal entity - and that they cannot simply assign the debt to the previous director.

 

I also asked for copy of any agreements, signed documents, copies of any bills etc

as i believe the bills will have xxx ltd ( Not TA)

 

Is this Practice legal - surely there is an illegal re-assignment attempt here - what about VAT ??

they cant retrospectively go back and change names on invoices and reassign the vat ....

 

Now i have a CCBC claim form for the above

I have filed an AOS stating i will defend complete claim.

 

Any help or advice welcome

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But what is the story here regarding this LTD company being dissolved ? A Director of that LTD company can't just close one business down to escape debts and then set up another company doing pretty much the same business, but without the debts. EON are entitled to go after the Directors of that business to recover the debt.

 

How many Directors were listed at time company was dissolved ?

 

Were any stock or equipment transferred from the dissolved company to a new company operated by Directors of the dissolved company ?

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company ceased trading.

no money in bank or assets apart from handtools

single director

lease came to an end

no phoenix company

company had been inactive for several months

company dissolved

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I think you can still be liable as Director for the debts of the dissolved company.

They could therefore gain a CCJ against you as a Director and obviously this would not be great on your records, as anyone searching would see you had a CCJ.

 

It would surprise me if Directors could simply leave debts behind and avoid getting CCJ's.

 

Have asked site whether to move this thread to legal, as you have received a court claim.

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My understanding is that it shouldnt happen ... And they cant transfer it over to a Director unless backed by some personal guarantee...

This smells for me...

 

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**Fko-Filee**

Receptaculum Ignis

 

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I think you can still be liable as Director for the debts of the dissolved company.

 

...........

 

It would surprise me if Directors could simply leave debts behind and avoid getting CCJ's.

 

The whole point of a limited company is its limited liability.

This primarily protects the shareholders (owners) who are only liable for the value of their share (+/- any unpaid sum on that share).

 

The ltd co is a distinct personality from its directors too.

The directors can be liable if they signed personal guarantees (as these "pierce the corporate veil"), but if not the directors aren't liable personally for the company's debts absent some other cause creating that liability, (such as knowing continuing to trade while insolvent or other breach of their Director's duties).

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Why do Directors of such LTD companies regularly end up with CCJ's for these utility debts ?

 

It would be very very surprising if this was not covered by legislation.

The debt would be against them as Director of the company and not a personal debt as a private individual.

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If you have evidence that the limited company (and not their new entity XXXX t/a XXXX) was liable for the debt, then your defence will be fairly straightforward.

 

What documentation do you have - maybe bills addressed to the LTD Co, a contract, copy of the lease, letters from EON or the DCA chasing the LTD Co?

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If the bill was genuinely a company debt, then I don't see how they could pursue you personally.

 

Sometimes, people sign terms and conditions which include a personal guarantee. It is easy to do that if you sign without reading the small print. If there is a personal guarantee you will be liable. However it would be for the claimant to prove this by providing a copy of the signed guarantee.

 

If you believe that this is a company debt, that is a very simple defence - and it is really for them to try and prove otherwise by providing copies of the relevant documents.

 

It would surprise me if Directors could simply leave debts behind and avoid getting CCJ's.

This is exactly what they can do UB. The general rule is that directors are not personally liable for the debts of the company they run.

 

There are exceptions for example if the company was used to commit fraud, or if the director took assets out of the company knowing it was insolvent. For example if the company owns £1000 of property that £1000 has to be used to pay creditors - the director will be liable if he takes that £1000 or himself or moves it into a phoenix company.

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I think you can still be liable as Director for the debts of the dissolved company.

They could therefore gain a CCJ against you as a Director and obviously this would not be great on your records, as anyone searching would see you had a CCJ.

 

It would surprise me if Directors could simply leave debts behind and avoid getting CCJ's.

 

Have asked site whether to move this thread to legal, as you have received a court claim.

 

The limited company is a separate legal entity in its own right.

I disagree with the director being liable - unless they had PG which they did not.

I don't think the debt is transferable by simply changing the name format - this must illegal or wrong.

They have previously invoiced in the ltd company name - I don't have any copy invoices.

I left paperwork behind when I gave keys to unit back

I am hoping to defend on basis of Ltd co liability not directors

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If the bill was genuinely a company debt, then I don't see how they could pursue you personally.

 

Sometimes, people sign terms and conditions which include a personal guarantee. It is easy to do that if you sign without reading the small print. If there is a personal guarantee you will be liable. However it would be for the claimant to prove this by providing a copy of the signed guarantee.

 

If you believe that this is a company debt, that is a very simple defence - and it is really for them to try and prove otherwise by providing copies of the relevant documents.

 

 

This is exactly what they can do UB. The general rule is that directors are not personally liable for the debts of the company they run.

 

There are exceptions for example if the company was used to commit fraud, or if the director took assets out of the company knowing it was insolvent. For example if the company owns £1000 of property that £1000 has to be used to pay creditors - the director will be liable if he takes that £1000 or himself or moves it into a phoenix company.

 

Thanks Steampower, I was fairly confident that was the case - just needed to have it confirmed

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If the bill was genuinely a company debt, then I don't see how they could pursue you personally.

 

Sometimes, people sign terms and conditions which include a personal guarantee. It is easy to do that if you sign without reading the small print. If there is a personal guarantee you will be liable. However it would be for the claimant to prove this by providing a copy of the signed guarantee.

 

If you believe that this is a company debt, that is a very simple defence - and it is really for them to try and prove otherwise by providing copies of the relevant documents.

 

 

This is exactly what they can do UB. The general rule is that directors are not personally liable for the debts of the company they run.

 

There are exceptions for example if the company was used to commit fraud, or if the director took assets out of the company knowing it was insolvent. For example if the company owns £1000 of property that £1000 has to be used to pay creditors - the director will be liable if he takes that £1000 or himself or moves it into a phoenix company.

 

Thanks Steampowered ,Supervillan FKOfilee , Bazzas, and others.

 

I was fairly confident that was the case - just needed to have it confirmed

just wondered if they were committing an offence or fraudulent activity by changing trading title to secure a debt

 

I need to come up with a set of wording for the claim form defence,

I also note the claim form is signed by Debt collectors company name and not an individual - I thought a statement of truth needed to be signed by an individual

the claim form guidance notes state "Statement of truth, This must be signed by you, your solicitor or your litigation friend.

Where the claimant is a registered company or a corporation the claim must be signed by either the director or other officer of the company

or (in the case of a corporation) the mayor, chairman, president or town clerk.

 

does this invalidate the form.

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just wondered if they were committing an offence or fraudulent activity by changing trading title to secure a debt

I don't think it matters. They say you owe the debt. You say the company owes the debt. Unless the case settles the court will decide. No need to overcomplicate it.

 

I need to come up with a set of wording for the claim form defence,

Very simple I would have thought. Simply saying that liability for the debt is denied, on the basis that the debt was incurred by company X Ltd as an independent legal entity. You probably need to give a bit of background - such as explaining that the company was the party to the lease, which contracted with the company and to which bills were addressed. Do check your paperwork to see if those statements are accurate.

 

does this invalidate the form.

No. Personally I wouldn't bother running the point, it is a distraction. Even if it did invalidate the form they would just redo it.

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common with utility companies, BT does it when your relatives die, they change the account name to yours when you tell them of the death and are reluctant to admit that they dont have any right to do so.

Now, with many energy suppliers the devil is in the detail as they like to get the directors to be liable for the company debts so it is possible your contract makes you liable but without that correct contract you are not liable for a Ltd co debt unless it can be shown you behaved in a reckless manner and companies house are usually the arbiter of that.

I would be challenging their claim on the basis that they are chasing the wrong entity and so you owe nothing. If you have old bills you can show that xxx Ltd was previously billed (up to the point of when the co dissolved) and thus this new effort is unjustified

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