Registered disabled - violation for parking in a disabled bay!

[Surfer01]

IMHO the council will assume that because the person keeps the expired BB in a vehicle the intention is to use it fraudulently which is why they are cracking down on BB misuse. I suggest you pay the fine and lesson learnt.

[Jamberson]

I don't go investigating unexplained links, disgruntled, but if there's a point you want to make, go ahead.

 

IMHO the council will assume that because the person keeps the expired BB in a vehicle the intention is to use it fraudulently which is why they are cracking down on BB misuse. I suggest you pay the fine and lesson learnt.

 

No they won't assume anything of the sort. Honestly - some of the posts here seem to come with very little little factual knowledge behind them.

 

The OP has absolutely nothing to gain from paying, while they are still in the appeals process.

[disgruntled2007]

"I don't go investigating unexplained links, disgruntled, but if there's a point you want to make, go ahead."

 

...that's a government supplied document stating one must return an expired blue badge...

 

"You don't have to return Blue Badges."

 

"Honestly - some of the posts here seem to come with very little little factual knowledge behind them."

 

[Jamberson]

You don't have to return them.

 

They say they want you to, and they hope you will - but that's it. Nothing further happens. They don't know where the Blue Badge holder is living (or whether they ARE still living!), can't and don't track the Blue Badges, have no means of recalling them, and so they let the owners keep them as they wish. They even issue out replacement ones before the expiry date, without asking for the first one back, so BB holders have two at once.

 

This, by they way, is knowledge of the system, as opposed to reading from a leaflet.

[Surfer01]

In order to get a BB one needs to apply Online and also submit proof of disability i.e. mobility DLA and this will have your address on it.

It can be a lengthy process.

 

 

You may have two at once, but cannot use both as the dates do not overlap.

I renewed mine last year and thay are a lot stricter in our county regarding BB due to abuse and misuse.

[Sad sam]

Please find attached the entrance sign and the bay parking sign.

 

Nowhere does the car park imply BB requirement, until you get the PCN through as it states it were others pay.

 

However the disabled are advised to walk in a different direction to were that BB advisory is.

The carpark is gravel & the charge point is about 100m+ from the disabled bays.

 

Any thoughts.

Entrance & Bay Signs.pdf

[Ethel Street]

Nowhere does the car park imply BB requirement, .

 

So the bit that says prominently "Free parking for disabled users. Valid Blue Badge must be displayed" doesn't cover it then?

[Sad sam]

This notification is at the other side of the carpark, away from the disabled bays, in no way visible to disabled drivers and in the opposite direction to were the disabled are directed.

 

Hence my position if you have rules or requirements should they be prominently placed?

[disgruntled2007]

From a quick review of google maps satellite view it appears the disabled bays are arranged in a line from the entrance and running along Academy Way.

 

Are there any signs dictating you must display a badge in front of these bays, along the fence line? You've already shown the signs that say "max stay..." and "for elevator access..." this is the fence line I'm referring to.

 

Where is the big billboard sign with the terms on it in relation to the disabled bays?

[Sad sam]

Dear Disgruntled.

You have spotted it exactly.

The Sign in front of each bay is exactly as I have shown, JUST the Max stay 3 hours. In front of 5-10 bays is the advisory to lift access.

 

There is No advisory to Blue Badge.

 

Separately I reread the Blue Badge leaflet, which is quite clear (PG6):

 

"A Blue Badge will help you to park close to your

destination, either as a passenger or driver.

However, the badge is intended for on-street

parking only. Off-street car parks, such as those

provided in local authority, hospital or supermarket

car parks are governed by separate rules."

 

How can a Local Authority then apply the BB scheme to an off street carpark?

Hence Can a Violation 87 be issued properly on an off-street carpark?

 

I note the Equality Act 2010 means that Local Authorities must make reasonable adjustments.

 

 

The Equality Act 2010 does not include any provision for Blue Badge holders only vs any disabled parking to discharge the duty to provide 'reasonable adjustments' for parking.

 

 

Limiting accessible bays in off street parking to Blue Badge holders only surely risks contravening the Equality Act 2010.

 

The Equality Act says you should never be asked to pay for the adjustments. The BB scheme costs money to participate.

If LA's demand BB surely that is against the Equality act?

 

I wonder what the more learned out there think!

[Sad sam]

I found this.

 

I cant get the whole link, but search researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN01360/SN01360.pdf

 

Easy to read. CH 5 is interesting.

 

There is no requirement as to the provision of parking in the Equality Act 2010. However, public bodies must not, in the exercise of their functions, “do anything that constitutes discrimination, harassment or victimisation” (section 29(6)).

 

Is placing rule signage over 100m from allocated parking discrimination? The distance is further then the eligibility criterion for the BB!

 

 

Beyond the question of discrimination is the public sector equality duty set out in section 149 of the Act.

 

Section 149 provides that a public authority must, in the exercise of its functions “have due regard to the need to” among other things, “advance equality of opportunity between persons who share a relevant protected characteristic and persons who do not share it”. This involves having due regard to the need to “take steps to meet the needs of persons who share a relevant protected characteristic that are different from the needs of persons who do not share it”. Section 149(4) states how this applies to the treatment of disabled persons:

 

The steps involved in meeting the needs of disabled persons that are different from the needs of persons who are not disabled include, in particular, steps to take account of disabled persons' disabilities.

 

 

So a disability my make someone forget to use or misuse their badge, etc etc etc. The Public Authority MUST take due regard.

 

Hope that helps others also

[Sad sam]

owned by marston!

 

How did you find out who owned the Land?

[dx100uk]

didn't say that..

 

 

https://uk.search.yahoo.com/search?p=NSL+Marstons&fr=uh3_news_web_gs&fr2=p%3Anews%2Cm%3Asb

[ericsbrother]

the offer for parking comes with a caveat about having a valid blue badge.

as this is council land they are entitled to have that stipulation and it is not about disability, it is about the BB scheme itself.

 

 

If the car park was private land contract law comes into play as the BB scheme doesnt apply and then you can argue about disability and whether they have suitable adjustments to cater for disability but that is a more general argument then whether a valid badge had been shown at the time.

 

 

Displaying an out of date badge can get you into big trouble,

even on private land if the intention is to gain an advantage and in this case saving a quid would be enough (or even bagging a parking space).

 

Put it bluntly,

if you had a valid BB and forgot it than that is your look out,

using an out of date one and winging it,

getting a ticket an complaining afterwards is silly.

 

 

Put in your appeal by all means but dont be surprised when it is rejected as the PCN was correctly issued.

 

 

make too much of a fuss and they may cancel and seize your current valid one.

[Jamberson]

1. It is NOT about the BB scheme, which does not apply in car parks. It IS about provision for disabled people.

 

2. Displaying an out of date badge will not get you into trouble. It will get you a PCN at worst, which you already have.

 

3. Complaining afterwards, in the sense of appealing on circumstances, is not silly - it's the right thing to do. That's what the appeals process exists for.

 

4. The appeal will not necessarily be rejected.

 

5. "make too much of a fuss and they may cancel and seize your current valid one" is irresponsible scare-mongering. Don't tell people stuff like that. Everyone is entitled to pursue the appeals process.

[Bazooka Boo]

I too am registered disabled, the car I ''DON'T OWN'' is registered to me, therefore receives free RFL, but I wouldn't park in a disabled parking spot, and try and use this as an argument.

 

The badge was out of date, you used it knowingly so, you've been caught, IMHO regardless of the rights wrongs or wherefores, I doubt you're going to set a precedent with this, and you will only end up paying more for your trouble.

Humble pie I feel?

[ericsbrother]

Jamberson, you should refresh yourself on the behaviour of the London Borough of Barnet towards BB users and holders that have misused the badges one way or another.

Other LA's are following suit

[Sad sam]

I must say I am surprised at some of the replies.

 

This situation is bigger than this 1 instance. What happens when you forget to place your badge? Or your dog knocked it down.

In any of the cases if you have the legal right to a disabled bay, why should a PCN be upheld.

 

I agree and accept in any case were an officer cannot determine with certainty that a vehicle is being used for the carriage of a disabled person, it should receive a PCN.

However once the authority receives proof that the vehicle was being used/parked correctly ie for the use of a disabled person then the ticket should Always be revoked.

 

Mistakes happen, why should the disabled be punished for a simple error. That is not fair or reasonable.

 

 

Parking on Council land is for ALL disabled. Equality Act is very clear on that as is Parliament.

Section 149(4) states how this applies to the treatment of disabled persons:

 

The steps involved in meeting the needs of disabled persons that are different from the needs of persons who are not disabled include, in particular, steps to take account of disabled persons' disabilities.

 

Confusion, forgetfulness MUST hence be considered by LA.

 

But I asked a question, if the BB scheme is clearly for ON-ROAD use, how can you receive a ticket off-road?

[Jamberson]

But I asked a question, if the BB scheme is clearly for ON-ROAD use, how can you receive a ticket off-road?

 

Because the car park regulations state that people displaying a blue badge are allowed to use those bays. It's not a provision under the BB scheme, it's under the terms and conditions of the car park. The PCN is for breaching those conditions, as would be, say, parking outside the bay markings.

[Jamberson]

Jamberson, you should refresh yourself on the behaviour of the London Borough of Barnet towards BB users and holders that have misused the badges one way or another.

Other LA's are following suit

 

OK, fair enough. Can you point me in the right direction? I've never heard of anyone getting into trouble for accidentally displaying their own expired badge (other than receiving a PCN).

 

Never heard of a case on this forum, for instance, in years of posting here. If it's happening, it would be good to know - any examples? If not, no reason to think it ever happens.

[Ethel Street]

Seems to me Sad sam that this thread has gone past the point where you want actual advice and you're enjoying the argument for its own sake. Nothing wrong with that, that's what online forums are for! However, if you still have a right of appeal (sorry, thread's gone on so long I can't remember where you are in the process) just go for it. You seem certain what your rights are that you should include in your appeal, so just do it and let us know what happens. Otherwise we'll all enjoy the debate while your opportunity to appeal slips away....

 

 

Personally I think you are clutching at straws but the proof of the pudding is in the eating so put in your appeal (sorry for the mixed metaphors). If it shows the advice here is wrong then good for you.

 

 

What happens when you forget to place your badge? Or your dog knocked it down.

In any of the cases if you have the legal right to a disabled bay, why should a PCN be upheld.

 

However once the authority receives proof that the vehicle was being used/parked correctly ie for the use of a disabled person then the ticket should Always be revoked.

 

Mistakes happen, why should the disabled be punished for a simple error. That is not fair or reasonable.

 

 

Parking on Council land is for ALL disabled. Equality Act is very clear on that as is Parliament.

Section 149(4) states how this applies to the treatment of disabled persons:

 

The steps involved in meeting the needs of disabled persons that are different from the needs of persons who are not disabled include, in particular, steps to take account of disabled persons' disabilities.

 

Confusion, forgetfulness MUST hence be considered by LA.

 

That's a mish mash of legal confusion. I wouldn't use it in an appeal if I were you. But your choice.

 

Forgetting to display a parking permit or the dog knocking it down isn't a disability in itself. The same 'unfairness' applies to all drivers (if it is an unfairness). If you want to claim that forgetfulness and confusion is an inherent part of your own disability for which the Council needs to make reasonable adjustments under the Equality Act then you need expert medical evidence relating to your own disability. Do you have Consultant's report saying that? Merely asserting it will get you nowhere. The Council doesn't have to prove that forgetfulness and confusion isn't part of your disability. The onus would be on you to prove that it was. How are you going to do that?

 

Issue of a BB is primarily for poor physical mobility not mental impairment. You can be disabled under the Equality Act and not entitled to a BB. Equally a great many people (possibly even the majority) of BB holders do not have a disability under the Equality Act. Equating entitlement to a BB with having a disability is simply wrong.

 

"Confusion, forgetfulness MUST hence be considered by LA" is just your opinion. It isn't stated in the parliamentary paper you quote from nor in the Equality Act nor in any statutory guidance about the Act.

 

 

Nor does the legislation you quote say that "Parking on Council land is for ALL disabled." Again that is just your interpretation of the law. I don't think the council will agree with you. If you are happy to be the test case that goes all the way to the Supreme Court to decide whether your interpretation of the law is correct then good for you, and good luck. I look forward to reading how you've got on in about three year's time. But in the meantime don't expect the Council to accept that argument.

[Ethel Street]

Equally a great many people (possibly even the majority) of BB holders do not have a disability under the Equality Act.

 

On reflection I've overstated that. But my general point remains, not all BB holders have a disability under the Equality Act. Having a disability and entitlement to a BB aren't the same thing. Being disabled isn't the criteria for being given a BB.

[disgruntled2007]

I think Ethel has hit the nail on the head. This thread has lost it's way.

 

The most suitable defence you have been offered is from Jamberson on page two where you fess up and throw yourself at the mercy of the Panel. Have you submitted this?

 

I asked a question regarding the signage that might have offered mitigating circumstances if you were unlikely to see the requirement to display a BB due to the positioning of the signage.

 

Forgive my bluntness but you do seem hell bent on pushing some kind of discrimination agenda but of course I may be misinterpreting your posts.

 

You initially posted a question regarding an error in which you mistakenly used your expired BB and received a ticket for not displaying a valid BB.

 

The fact of the matter is that this is exactly what you did. Jamberson suggested an appeal that may or may not have worked. Digging into the minutiae of equality and discrimination law will make not a jot of difference in this case.

 

The arguments you are putting forward are disingenuous and wouldn't help you at all. In fact they may work against you,

 

For example, you suggest that one possible defence is confusion and forgetfulness. Looking at it objectively, you claim that confusion and forgetfulness should be taken into consideration. Should it be taken into consideration with regard your ability to drive? You remembered the route required to drive the car to a car park. You remembered that you were disabled and remembered to park in a disabled spot. You then forgot to display your current BB. Confusion can't be the cause as you successfully negotiated all those aforementioned obstacles.

 

I'm no expert and am nothing more than an interested lay person but you really must try to remove emotions and look at the established facts and precedents about which the very knowledgable people posting here are unsurpassed.

 

So...

 

Why not try the tack suggested by Jamberson?

[ericsbrother]

never stated anyone got done for accidentally displaying an out of date badge,

I stated that Barnet (and others) are particularly hot on going after anyone who misuses the badge scheme.

 

 

However, the OP stated in his opening post that he deliberately used an out of date badge because he had left his current one at home.

 

 

He could have just paid the £1 to park or he could have appealed with a simple apology for using the old badge and sending a copy of the current one and asking for the matter to be looked upon as a matter of mitigation

 

 

that wasnt the view expressed by the OP, who thought that the issuing of the ticket was somehow discriminatory and wanted to take up the cudgels on that point.

 

I am also disabled but dont have a blue badge.

The law says that people with certain diseases are automatically considered to be disabled persons under law

 

 

in most other matters the council would have to show that it has suitable protocols in place to make reasonable adjustments to enable equal access to their services.

 

 

The OP doesnt have this protection.

 

OK, fair enough. Can you point me in the right direction? I've never heard of anyone getting into trouble for accidentally displaying their own expired badge (other than receiving a PCN).

 

Never heard of a case on this forum, for instance, in years of posting here. If it's happening, it would be good to know - any examples? If not, no reason to think it ever happens.

[Bazooka Boo]

Exactly, pay up move on..... and be rest assured that your LA is actually proactive in enforcing the BB rules so others don't try to exploit them.