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    • Hi Sneezer and thanks for your Site Donation which is much needed and much appreciated.   The info from the "Solicitor" makes sense if you were complaining about how CRS came to have your contact details. However, this is not relevant to your case. You didn't cancel properly and carried on paying for a gym you didn't use.   For the future, see the Guide here about how to cancel a contract properly and avoid trouble - https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/383678-cancelling-your-gym-agreement-get-it-right/     Come back anytime to update us but don't worry about CRS or anyone else who makes demands. Let us know if you need more for advice and reassurance.    
    • They were communicating with lawyers associated to me too   They can’t serve a SD on your lawyers, only you.   As I said earlier - the lawyer stopped communicating  around the date on the SD they incorrectly served.  And the bank told me the receiver was now handling things and not to deal with them anymore.   The receiver never asked me where I was.  But he did email and I did reply or he did get auto reply.   Since I did have email communication with them - I don't think they could say they did everything possible to find me,  All they had to do was ask!  And then we could have discussed the situation.    It almost is the reverse - they did nothing to try find me.  And if a PI is employed to do surveillance then he must have realised only one person - the wrong one - lived at the  wrong address.   Does anyone have any info re post #26 and #28 above?   The property is being marketed for sale and the receiver is negotiating offers, so there was no reason for me to expect bank/ lawyers to be trying to locate me to serve any papers.      Surely any loss to them has to be proven upon an agreed sale.  It hasn't sold yet,   They may still get a high enough offer to prevent any large debt?  There could then be a different discussion re terms of repayment?   So I was not expecting anyone to be trying to find me!   But this is a bit of a digression from what  should I be doing NOW? Should I send them an SAR?  If they do intend to serve me correctly this would be useful, yes?   I am sure they have added all sorts of unnecessary costs to the debt that could be challenged?   Also there is a question over if they even had a valid notice of assignment?  They would have to produce that in the SAR wouldn't they?   This was a real query for me ages ago but it never got pursued legally.
    • Expect them to bring up every communication and claim that you’ve been dodging them / not providing them with an address to serve to.......
    • They have email and phone - and they could have asked/ emailed me?  The research I have done shows creditor's can use email to serve.   They never asked me where I moved to. The knew they made me homeless but they were regularly communicating other things by email - so they could have asked. They didnt.  No idea how they found the elderly relative. tbh - I don't have a fixed abode.  
    • Do they have an address for you?   if not, how are you expecting them to bring it to your attention? And / or serve it in person??
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Hi Everyone,

 

Looking for some advice in the best way to deal with a Summons that dropped through the letter box a day or so ago.

 

My wife parked in a car park administered by Civil Enforcement Ltd on 28/8/2016.

 

This car park had previously been a car park where one paid on exit and my wife assumed it was still like this when she parked.

 

 

After about 10 minutes (on leaving the car park) a colleague informed her you now have to pre-pay so she immediately returned and purchased a ticket which she placed in the car and thought no more about it

 

Then she received a letter (now thrown away) demanding £100 as a parking charge for not following the car parks rules and regulations. My wife wrote back to them disputing the charge and refusing to pay it.

 

 

She went through their appeals procedure and received letters demanding payment and threatening legal action on 6/10/16, 26/10/16, 7/11/16 and 13/02/17 and the Summons dated 8/6/17.

 

The Summons has been replied to to defend all.

 

My wife was part of a church group

she has 20 witnesses to returning and buying the ticket after about 10 minutes had elapsed.

I have asked her to get some witness statement from members of the group.

Unfortunately the original tickets were not retained.

 

 

Civil Enforcement Ltd have number plate recognition cameras and the ticket machine is one where you enter the car registration number when buying the ticket.

 

 

presumably, my wife can ask for

the timing details of entering the car park,

time of ticket purchase.

amount of ticket purchase

and when she left the car park.

 

 

This should show she would not have used up all the time paid for.

 

Its early days yet but I would appreciate all and any input as to the best way to deal with this.

 

An irritating thing about the Summons is that it does not state what it is for.

 

 

Can they issue a generic Summons like this? - Wording below:

 

"The Claimant claims the sum of £250.64 for outstanding debt and damages including £14.64 interest persuant to S.69 of the County Courts Act 1984. Rate 8.00% pa from dates above to7/617. Same rate to Judgment - 0.05

Total debt and interest due - £260.64

 

I will provide the defendent with separate detailed particulars within 14 days after service of the claim form."

 

Amount Claimed - £250.64

Court Fee - £25.00

Legal Reps Costs - £50.00

Total - £325.64

 

As it is a small claim can they charge a legal reps fee?

And can they issue a summons without stating what it is all about and without a breakdown of charges?

 

Look forward to comments whether good or bad.

Edited by dx100uk

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They can include a "legal reps" charge if they chose to use a solicitor.

For small claims track this is strictly limited, but they could succeed in charging £50.

 

Of course the aim is to defeat their claim (& hope they rack up more than £50 in solicitors costs!), but alternatively you can only hope they are getting charged more than £50 win or lose ......

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they will add another £200 for ashley writing his witless statement, and load of other costs to bump the total up to over £700 if they can so they can get the bailiffs round should you not defend.

 

The simple answer is to defend the claim and they are then more likely to drop the whole thing than continue.

 

All the things you raise can be raised with the courts service later on but only when you get to a point where an allocation to your local county court has been made and that is several steps away.

 

It is a shame the first letter demanding money was thrown away,

it would have probably failed to invoke keeper liability

so NEVER do that again,

always keep them for at leat 2 years if they dont cancel the ticket beforehand.

 

for now the keeper acknowledges the claim,

preferably via moneyclaimonline and then she has an extra 14 days to submit an outline defence.

 

Something like

"there was no breach of contract as the driver/defendant purchased a ticket at the time in accordance with the conditions of the signage and the BPA code of Practice"

 

taking 10 minutes to read the signs and then deciding to find the change to pay is perfectly OK,

both in the BPA rules and also in the key decisiosns of PATAS as was

so CEL have to show their system is better than both of these and they cant.

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Thanks for the two replies so far.

 

What concerns me is that they can issue a Summons without actually stating what it is for

saying they will provide details later on

 

- so how do you compose a defence without knowing what you are defending against.

 

The time you have is whittled away waiting for them to submit that information.

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as said

you make that clear later,

for the moment you have been sued

so you deal with things in the correct order or you lose,

regardless of the merits of the claim.

 

 

CEL rely entirely on people not defending to make money and that is why they invent amounts and charges they knwo wont get past judge in a court hearing .

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so how do you compose a defence without knowing what you are defending against. The time you have is whittled away waiting for them to submit that information.

 

You prepare what you can where you can, and make sure you file something in time.

 

Even if that INCLUDES (but isn't ONLY) something along the lines of

"the claim is insufficiently particularised for me to respond in full detail, and I request leave of the court to amend this defence to respond further if the claimant adequately particularises their claim"

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please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

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Name of the Claimant ? Civil Enforcement Ltd

claimants Solicitors:

 

Date of issue – . 8th June 2017

 

What is the claim for –

1."The Claimant claims the sum of £250.64 for outstanding debt and damages including £14.64 interest persuant to S.69 of the County Courts Act 1984. Rate 8.00% pa from dates above to7/617. Same rate to Judgment - 0.05

 

Total debt and interest due - £260.64

 

I will provide the defendent with separate detailed particulars within 14 days after service of the claim formlink3.gif."

 

Amount Claimed - £250.64

Court Fee - £25.00

Legal Reps Costs - £50.00

Total - £325.64

 

What is the value of the claim? £325.64

 

(Scanner broken so can't put up full copy of POC)

 

Has the claim been issued by the Private parking Company or was the PCN assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim ? Parking Company

 

Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment? N/A

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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pop up on the MCOL website detailed on the claimform.

.

register as an individual

note the long gateway number given

then log in

.

select respond to a claim and select the AOS box.

.

then using the details required from the claimform

.

defend all

leave jurisdiction unticked.

click thru to the end

confirm and exit MCOL.

.

get a CPR 31:14 request running to the solicitors

.

don't sign anything

.

dx

 

 

 

 

text of CRP

 

 

to the solicitors

[Your address]

.

[Their address [solicitors]

.

[Date]

.

Dear Sir or Madam,

.

Re: (Claimant's name) v (Your name) Case No:

.

CPR 31.14 Request

.

On (date) I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the (Name) county court.

.

I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest all of your claim.

.

Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of [each of the following / the] document(s) mentioned in your Particulars of Claim:

.

1. the contract between [parking company name] and the landowner that assigns the right to enter into contracts with the public and make claims in their own name,.

.

2.proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and Country Planning Act 2007

.

3.copies of the notice to driver, notice to keeper and any other correspondence from [insert Claimant Name] & [insert Solicitors Name} to the defendant that they intend to rely upon in court.

.

You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document(s) I have requested are disclosed at your earliest convenience..

.

Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy.

.

Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case.

.

Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s) which are now in the possession of a third party.

.

In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.

.

If you are unable to comply with this request within 14 days and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request please confirm in your response.

.

You are reminded that as this case is yet to be allocated to a track, CPR31:14 does apply, a refusal to comply because you 'think' at this stage you dont have too will be used against you in any filed defence.

.

Yours faithfully

.

TYPE YOUR NAME DO NOT SIGN IT


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

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OK when the 14 days after the date of issue (22nd june) are up you write to the courts service and ask that the claim be struck out for abuse of process and the claim having having shown no evidence of a cause for action against the defendant.

 

They said they will provide the detail of their cause for action and they should or shut up.

If they dont you can also ask for costs as their action is unreasonable under CPR 27.14.2

 

This is separate to any other letters you need to send

so it might be worth speaking to Northampton if you can naviage their peculiar phone system to ascertain where to send this strike out letter to

 

(usually them but could be elsewhere and at least they will be reminded tht it is coming and actuallyaction it rather thanjust filing it and letting someone else read it in 6 months time)

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Many thanks for both replies - very much appreciated.

 

My wife mailed the acknowledgement of service yesterday by Recorded Delivery back to Northampton.

 

If DEL have not sent their particulars of claim by 22nd I will do as Ericsbrother suggests and apply for a strike out due to abuse of process.

 

As DX suggests we will get a CPR 31:14 reqest off in a couple of days - but will add items such as the records of the ticket machine on the day in question - they ask for number plate key in so should be able to provide a list of vgehicle registration and timings etc.. Depending on their POC if they provide one other questions will also be asked.

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why not file AOS by MCOL website

far easier and 100% guaranteed to get there!!


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

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Just a quick update.

 

Filed a 'holding defence' reserving the right with the permission of the court to amend should CEL provide their Particulars of Claim.

 

Next day their POC arrived!

 

Also sent a couple of days back the 31.14 request.

 

Their POC is still very vague - stating simply the defendant breached the terms and conditions of the site.

 

They quote Vine v Waltham Forest London Borough Council [2000] 4 All ER 169 which, unless I am missing something, is all about wheel clamping!

 

And, of course, the Beavis case!

 

The reason they are pursuing this is because IMHO my wife corresponded with them (unknown to me) and went through their appeals procedure.

 

H They must have thought they were on to an easy payout as English is not my wife's first language.

 

She simply thought that by explaining herself and what happened would be enough to get them to back off.

 

Her stilted English letters must have made them jump up and down with glee thinking they had an easy target for their brand of extortion.

 

Be interesting to see how they respond to the 31.14 requests and the amended defence which I will file next week.

 

One question - do I have to ask the permission of the Court to Amend the defence of do I just log on and file it?

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you shouldn't have filed early,

def was not due till 10th july

who said do that?

 

 

dx


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

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Filed early is my mistake.

 

Due to travelling shortly to the Middle East and not wishing to miss any deadlines.

 

My wife is not capable of managing this herself as Courts and Legal hassles are viewed with great distrust in her country of origin. Just to get witness statements from those in her Church group is a major undertaking because of this.

 

Anyway the mistake is made - can I file an amended defence? Or is permission needed?

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believe permission and £100 fee!

let me go look.

 

 

dx


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

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Thanks dx - appreciate the reply.

 

I need to get a defence drafted before I travel - so do I write to Northampton requesting permission to amend the submitted defence or wait until it is allocated to my local court. Or simply wait?

 

I can leave the amended defence with my wife to submit later - presumably before 10th July with any fee that needs to be paid?

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right,

what you have filed is an outline of your defence so unless you said something completely stupid you don't need to change the defence,

 

just add the detail to it when your have a court hearing allocated and are told to exchance documents.

 

What was your defence?

No contract and no keeper liability will be plenty, that is one line

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Great - thanks Ericsbrother.

 

Simply stated that their POC was too vague to make a specific response as the defendant had no idea what she was accused of.

 

 

Their POC now received is still very vague

- defendant does not know if she is being accused of not paying (she did and has witnesses),

entering the wrong registration number when she obtained the tickets (she swears she entered the correct registration) or of some other infringement.

 

I will prepare for the document exchange and flesh out a fully particularised defence she can submit if I am away.

 

Any idea why they mention Vine v Waltham Forest?

This appears to be all about wheel clamping not parking in a private car park.

 

 

This is baffling me as the POC state in relation to this ' " they accepted, by their conduct, the terms and conditions of parking". - then quoting this case to support this statement.

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V v WF

it reinforces the idea that you can enter into a unilateral contract and by parking you have deemed to have done so..

 

Of course, this is driver laibility not a defined keeper liability as prescribed by the POFA so irrelevant.

Also it doesnt take into account the wording of that contract and the one your driver was offered will certainly be different, probably unenforceable and possibly unlawful.

 

As your outline defence states their claim is gibberish they may be asked to submit futher evidence to a court under a Case Management Order.

 

If possible get this heard at your local court and make it a hearing by a judge rather than a paper exercise.

 

CEL wont pitch up and that kicks the matter into touch unless they want to start all over again and pay new costs the worse that can happen with this CMO is you are aksed to respond to their new info to see if you now want to put your hands up to owing the money.

say no to that anda date is then set for a full hearing and costs normally reserved.

 

when I was sued by CEL they were ordered to pay my CMO hearing costs as well as getting a warning that they were going to lose if they continued.

 

Needless to say they trid to get me to admit I owed the something by telephoning a day later but when I told them to get lost they folded and paid my costs

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Thanks again Ericsbrother.

 

My wife and I certainly appreciate the time and effort made in responding to these posts and the encouragement to take on these leeches and give them a kicking in the gonads.

 

Although my wife has a dread of anything to do with our legal system she was sufficiently incensed to take this as far as she could.

 

She and her friends are amazed that something so unfair and unjust can be turned into a threat of court action.

 

To be fair she stood her ground in the face of overwhelming pressure to simply pay what CEL wanted in the general understanding there wasn't a chance in hell of winning.

 

This was because so many of her group had simply accepted such unfair demands for money in the past.

 

Hopefully if CEL get a good kick in the gonads this cash cow attitude will be kicked into the long grass and these people will be more willing to stand up for themselves.

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New poc please in pdf


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

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