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We have had numerous issues with a caravan purchased from a dealership

in less than a year we have had approximately 44 issues with the caravan with several issues being serious.

 

 

Four of the issues resulted in the front and rear panels being repaired and then replaced.

 

The advice I got from a lawyer was as follows;

 

Although I appreciate you approached XXX Caravans to supply you the caravan, as you took out a hire purchase agreement with Black Horse, they are the retailer of the caravan. T

 

herefore any rights you have under consumer law are to be exercised against Black Horse and not XXX Caravans.

 

 

Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 Black Horse have an obligation to ensure the goods supplied to you under a contract are of satisfactory quality.

 

This means they should be fit for their purpose, free from minor defects, safe and durable.

 

For the problems you have described in your email it would appear this is not the case, as a result Black Horse are in breach of the contract between you.

 

I have always been under the impression that the supplier is the retailer and that the contract is between the consumer and the supplier and if there are any issues I need to approach the supplier and not the finance company although the finance company do have a responsibility.

 

As we have had so many issues with this caravan which appears to be a Friday afternoon lemon made from left over pieces of other rejected caravans, we are considering rejecting the caravan even though we have had it since July 2016.

 

 

The £1000 deposit was paid using a credit card with the balance financed by a trade in and HP. The caravan cost in excess of £30000. We have had approximately 100 days usage from the caravan.

 

The question is whether the advice from the lawyer is correct or not? Thanks.

Edited by dx100uk

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We bought a brand new caravan which had so many faults on it that 11 months later we finally rejected the caravan.

In order to buy the caravan we traded in a caravan with a value of £13000 and paid a cash deposit of £1000 making total deposit paid £14000.

 

The rejection has been accepted by Black Horse who in their "Final decision letter" (the one and only letter from them) are paying the 8% statutory interest on deposit plus compensation for distress, loss of enjoyment and loss of use plus statutory interest.

 

However they have instructed the dealership to return our old caravan to us which has been on the dealer's forecourt since July 2016.

Do they have a right to do this as surely the trade in does not belong to Black Horse and they do not own the dealership?

 

 

Obviously the caravan has probably had loads of people tramping in and out of it plus it has aged a year or in caravan years almost 2 years so it is worth less now than a year ago.

 

The Consumer Rights Act 2015 section 20(11) and 20(12) states that where you transfer something other than money you are entitled to have that back the same amount of what you transferred. If it cannot be substituted you can have the original returned to you.

In this case the caravan can be substituted with the monetary value of the caravan.

Black Horse do not seem to understand this legislation and are bouncing us between themselves and the dealership.

 

 

The dealership states Black Horse instructed the dealership to return the trade in to us and unless they get further instruction from Black horse their hands are tied which leaves us in limbo.

Please confirm whether I am correct in thinking that it is Black Horse that should be reimbursing us the deposit money as in the meantime we have put down a small deposit on another new 2017 caravan to secure it and do not want to lose either our deposit or the new 2017 caravan. Thanks.

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trying to work you out here..

you don't want the old caravan back, but the equiv in monetary value?


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I think that's entirely fair.

You got a refund 11 months after purchase and your caravan back.

 

I dont think your argument of people tramping in and out holds water.

They, Blackhorse have given you everything you originally had and interest @8% AND compensation.

 

I think that's fair

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trying to work you out here..

you don't want the old caravan back, but the equiv in monetary value?

 

That is correct as the trade in caravan has lost value after one year.

 

if the dealer had sold it on either BH or the dealer would have to refund the monetary value of the trade in caravan.

 

I have quoted current legislation section 20 of CRA which seems to indicate I am correct.

Someone needs to refund the trade in value of the caravan.

 

In addition ,

we made over payments totally £555 over the past year and BH refunding that either?

 

 

I feel that as per the law we should not suffer financially as it is not our fault we were supplied with a Friday afternoon caravan that kept falling to bits every time you used it.

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well whichever way its resolved,

you are quite correct that you should be placed back in the same financial position as if none of this had ever taken place.

and any compensation is in addition to this position.

 

 

does the BH letter specifically state its their final response?

or does it use the term you may consider this as...


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How many chances did you give them to put it right before you rejected? Look at Clegg vs Olle Anderson.

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The dealer has not sold it tho.

Your offer is refund from Blackhorse. I presume that's all your payments made. Your traded in item. Interest at 8% and compensation.

 

Again I feel that's entirely fair. This is not a cash cow for you

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well whichever way its resolved,

you are quite correct that you should be placed back in the same financial position as if none of this had ever taken place. and any compensation is in addition to this position. does the BH letter specifically state its their final response? or does it use the term you may consider this as...

 

Thanks DX. Seems you are the only one able to understand the legislation correctly. This whole issue has dragged on for nearly a year due to the time taken for the major repairs. BH specifically state in their one and only letter that it is their final response. I spoke with the "Complaints Manager" person who is just another body in a chair and not really a manager who confirmed verbally to me that it was their final response. According to legislation and other sources it is the responsibility of BH to get the monetary value of the trade in deposit back to me however this they are refusing stating that they have washed their hands of it and it is up to the dealer to refund.

 

However the dealer has been told by BH to return the caravan to me although no one knows the state of the trade in plus in order to maintain the water ingress warranty it had to be serviced annually.

 

It was not serviced in October last year so the warranty against water ingress no longer applies and if there is water ingress the trade in value would be even less. We have no idea if it has suffered any damage, water or otherwise in the past year.

 

After all we are going to buy another caravan and sue BH again so all they have to do is transfer the money from one account to the other or something along those lines. I am amazed that people suggest that we should be happy to lose £2-3000 even though we are not at fault at all.

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PLEASE DONT HIT QUOTE IF THE LAST POST IS THE ONE YOU ARE REPLYING TOO.

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Thread moved to the appropriate forum

 

Regards

 

Andy


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Our next payment is due on the 20th

which could be a reason why BH are dragging their heels and not giving me a collection date.

 

We are dropping off the caravan at the dealership on the 19th to avoid this extra payment even though we will be a month in advance with our payments.

 

I have also raised a complaint with the Financial Ombudsman and submitted a copy of the "Final Decision" letter to the Ombudsman so no need to wait the 8 weeks.

 

I also mention to the Ombudsman that we had phoned and tried to negotiate with BH,

but that they told us that if we were not happy with the decision we must take it up with the Ombudsman.

 

Maybe BH thought I would not escalate it as we will need further credit from BH for the new caravan and upsetting the apple cart may jeopardise our chances of a new credit agreement.

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The 30 day rejection period can be extended as there is a little know facts regarding it;

I have been searching and reading up on the law and trying to understand it. it transpires that although nearly a year has passed we are still in the waiting period. I came across this which may help others.

 

"If within the first 30 days, the consumer requests a repair or replacement (whether they or you propose this remedy), a waiting period is entered into during which time the 30 day period stops running. The waiting period begins on the day the consumer asks for a repair or replacement, and ends with the day the consumer receives the goods back from you. On return of the goods, the consumer then has the remainder of the 30 day period, or 7 days (whichever is the longer period of time) still to exercise their short-time right to reject, if the goods still do not meet the requirements of the Act, either because of the same or a further issue."

 

Therefore if the repair takes 3 months to be effected I am guessing that technically you are still in the 30 day waiting period when it comes to rejection? Any one care to comment?

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yes,

again not new law but a clarification of what had already beed decided by the courts some years ago regarding a faulty new car.

 

 

as you dont have the goods the clock isnt ticking so take an item back on day 2,

get it returned to you on day 28 and you arent limited to either accept of reject the item in the next 2 days.

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In our case on day one two major faults were found, they could only do the repair until mid October.

They were only able to repair one of the faults and could not do the other until Feb 2017.

 

 

When doing the replacement of a panel, the other panel originally repaired developed a fault which they could only then do in mid May 2017.

 

 

Two weeks later the replaced panel failed again at which point we had enough and rejected the unit.

I assume it would have still been under the 30 day waiting period?

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We purchased a caravan and have had numerous issues with it resulting in it being rejected and the rejection being accepted.

However there is still an ongoing dispute regarding the caravan and a monetary payout.

 

Can we send a SAR to the dealership asking for all correspondence,

etc including correspondence between the dealership and the manufacturer regarding claims for repairs to the caravan

plus any other repairs done to the caravan by any third party organisations?

 

What should I be asking for as this is probably going to end up being handed over to solicitors or going to court due to the amount being over 30K. Thanks.

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That is not really a subject access request. That is disclosure of all documents related to the caravan which you can ask for if you took it to court.

 

An SAR under the DPA is about you as a data subject. Therefore if you made such a request, they might only send anything where your name is mentioned. Where it only relates to caravan repairs, they might not provide them.

 

If you want consumer law advice or information to assist, then Bankfodder and others are more knowledgeable in this, but they would need more information. E.g. Was it new or second hand, when you bought it, when you first registered problems, how many repairs attempted etc. Provide more info and a story will enable people to comment more.


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It was brand new when purchased. Several repairs attempted however rejection has been accepted but the dispute is over the amount being refunded so if I can find anything to show them in a bad light I will need it. See my other post HERE.

It seems that no one can answer whether we are still in the 30 day waiting period as that would be a totally new ball game and really stack the odds in my favour.

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Why are they not taking the caravan back with a full refund ?


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They want me to take back the caravan that was traded in over a year ago.

 

 

Since it was traded in, that caravan has depreciated in value by £2500, it has now lost its water ingress warranty which would still be in effect until 17th Oct 2017 if the caravan had been serviced annually, so if there are any water ingress problems between now and 17th Oct, we would have to pay to have it rectified.

 

 

In essence the caravan is no longer the same was when we traded it in as value has changed and it no longer has the warranty.

 

Lastly the caravan that was rejected is 8' wide which then allows me to get around the bottom of the island bed easily as I have mobility issues.

 

With the caravan that was traded in, it is very difficult or me to get around the bottom of the bed and was causing me hassles which is why it was traded in for the wider caravan.

 

 

even if we took back the trade in caravan, we cannot use it.

I have not mentioned this to them as I feel it is none of their business that I have a mobility disability.

 

If we can show that the current caravan was still within the 30 day rejection period even though it was eleven months old, we should get back all our repayments, compensation and also the deposit.

 

Initially when we rejected the caravan all we wanted was a replacement caravan and had no interest in compensation for loss of enjoyment and lost holidays, but the finance house have decided that they are above the law and are playing hard ball so we want to do the same.

 

We are seriously considering using a solicitor to draft a letter to the finance company as we clearly have the law clauses 10, 11, 12 of section 20 of CRA 2015 on our sides regarding the traded in caravan and a monetary pay out instead of taking the traded in caravan back.

The issue now is finding a solicitor in our area, Worcestershire, that is an expert in Consumer law.

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The long and the short of tho post. Already been answered.

 

Finance compay are refunding all payments and cancelling the finance. Caravan is being returned to the original owner to make them whole AND a hefty sum of compensation has been offered to cover all this.

 

Like I said on your other post, I think this is fair.

Your getting everything back plus some. The caravan has not depreciated by £2500. You can get a copy of the water certificate.

I think your just miffed off to be honest and see this episode as a cash cow to get your own back for the inconvenience of having to reject a caravan.

 

To the extent that the consumer transferred under the contract something for which the same amount of the same thing cannot be substituted, the consumer is entitled to receive back in its original state whatever the consumer transferred.

 

 

The only thing is the water cert. As stated you can get a copy of this.

 

I believe your just trying to get the book price for your caravan in cash as it were, instead of getting your original goods back, but that is what Is required. You put the link up and that's what it says.

And you have been offered compensation above and beyond. Your not out of pocket

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I am sorry but it seems that you have no understanding of the Consumer Rights Act 2015! Also the finance company are not refunding any of the repayments or even the overpayment which totals over £800 so i lose big time!

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that's an under statement!!


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several threads merged for you

 

 

dx


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