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Caravan Blackhorse - Caravan HP problems.refund issues..**WON VIA FOS**


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  • 9 months later...
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In May 2005 we purchased cash a Blue Dorema all seasons awning suitable for a seasonal site with a one year guarantee from a dealership nearby. Three months later we had to have all the steel poles replaced. In December 2006 we had to send the awning back to the dealer for the stitching to be redone in places as the stitching was right on the edge and it did not take much for it to come apart. This was done free of charge as I quoted the Sale of Goods Act.

Now 7 months down the line from the repair in February 2007, the same stitching has come apart again making it difficult to zip up the awning in the front. However more importantly just over two years from date of purchase the awning has gone from Blue to Green! We specifically chose Blue to match with the curtains etc. Our one neighbour who has the identical awning has also changed from Blue to Green a colour they specifically did not want. It is almost as if the manufacturer had a load of green canvas left over from a run which they then dyed blue which is why we have a green awning instead of a blue awning. Our other neighbour has a proper green awning and you cannot tell the difference in colour between the three awnings that is how bad it is.

Do you think I have much of a chance pursuing this through the small claims court using the following arguments;

 

a) Wherever goods are bought they must "conform to contract". This means they must be as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality (i.e. not inherently faulty at the time of sale).

 

b) Goods are of satisfactory quality if they reach the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking into account the price and any description

 

c) Aspects of quality include fitness for purpose, freedom from minor defects, appearance and finish, durability and safety.

 

d) For up to six years after purchase (five years from discovery in Scotland) purchasers can demand damages (which a court would equate to the cost of a repair or replacement).

 

The dealer has already said no ways are they going to consider it therefore as I purchased from the dealer, I have to pursue any action through the dealer. I appreciate that it is up to me to prove non-conformity but I think that the awning which costs nearly £750 no longer conforms to the colour it was when purchased and neither does the workmanship stand up to conformity considering the price paid. I am not interested in getting a refund, but rather a repair free of charge or a replacement.

What are your thoughts on this one? Thanks.

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I am hoping to a better response in this forum than the other forum I riginally posted in.

 

In May 2005 we purchased cash a Blue Dorema all seasons awning suitable for a seasonal site with a one year guarantee from a dealership nearby. Three months later we had to have all the steel poles replaced. In December 2006 we had to send the awning back to the dealer for the stitching to be redone in places as the stitching was right on the edge and it did not take much for it to come apart. This was done free of charge as I quoted the Sale of Goods Act.

Now 7 months down the line from the repair in February 2007, the same stitching has come apart again making it difficult to zip up the awning in the front. However more importantly just over two years from date of purchase the awning has gone from Blue to Green! We specifically chose Blue to match with the curtains etc. Our one neighbour who has the identical awning has also changed from Blue to Green a colour they specifically did not want. It is almost as if the manufacturer had a load of green canvas left over from a run which they then dyed blue which is why we have a green awning instead of a blue awning. Our other neighbour has a proper green awning and you cannot tell the difference in colour between the three awnings that is how bad it is.

Do you think I have much of a chance pursuing this through the small claims court using the following arguments;

 

a) Wherever goods are bought they must "conform to contract". This means they must be as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality (i.e. not inherently faulty at the time of sale).

 

b) Goods are of satisfactory quality if they reach the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking into account the price and any description

 

c) Aspects of quality include fitness for purpose, freedom from minor defects, appearance and finish, durability and safety.

 

d) For up to six years after purchase (five years from discovery in Scotland) purchasers can demand damages (which a court would equate to the cost of a repair or replacement).

 

The dealer has already said no ways are they going to consider it therefore as I purchased from the dealer, I have to pursue any action through the dealer. I appreciate that it is up to me to prove non-conformity but I think that the awning which costs nearly £750 no longer conforms to the colour it was when purchased and neither does the workmanship stand up to conformity considering the price paid. I am not interested in getting a refund, but rather a repair free of charge or a replacement.

What are your thoughts on this one? Thanks

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I think you are totally within your rights to expect a repair, including a re-dye job if that is what's needed, or a replacement if a re-dye is not appropriate. I would suggest you start documenting with photographs what you bought, (their own brochures would be nice), what you have now, etc, you want to start thinking in building a case.

 

Can you clarify this sentence?

The dealer has already said no ways are they going to consider it therefore as I purchased from the dealer, I have to pursue any action through the dealer.
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Hi,

Ive just bought a blue Awning.. Not from Dorema though..

 

I have had a look through Dorema's warranty, Which does state the following would not be covered,(well according to them..But SOGA may have different views)

 

Changes in colour between Panels

Changes in colour due to the weather or enviroment.

 

Having said that I feel it does not actually let them off the hook at all.

 

Just out of Interest.. was your neighbours awning bought around the same time ?, Have they complained about the colour changes of theirs with their dealer?. If bought around the same time it is possible a bad batch of material had been supplied to them etc.

 

I would contact Bookworm on CAG regarding the sale of goods act, She is our local expert on SOGA..

 

Sorry Ive not been a lot of help though

 

Ian

Lloyds TSB -PPI - Full refund . 05/09/06 :D:p (As Seen on TV) :p

Halifax settled in Full.. :D 22/09/06

TSB First Claim SETTLED IN FULL 19/10/06 :D

Second Claim to Lloyds TSB - Settled in Full

Firstplus - early settlement interest charges - Challenged the use of the rule of 78 - SETTLED IN FULL 12/1/07

PPI - GE Money / Purpleloans / Firstplus - Now Settled after 1 year long hard fight.

 

 

 

If my post has helped you, please click the scales! :grin:

 

Anything said is my opinion and how I understand the law, always consult professional legal advice before taking something to court.

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As it is an item designed to live outdoors, you would reasonably assume it (and its dyes) would be 'weatherproof'. So as far as those disclaimer terms go, they may well be unenforceable.

 

If it had said that they weren't liable for colour changes UNDER CERTAIN UNUSUAL CIRCUMSTANCES (like bleaching, bird lime etc) then fair enough - or if it was something being used in unusual circumstances, or in a way it wasn't designed to be used, then fair enough... but they can't use disclaimers to sanction shoddy workmanship or poor durability, if the goods are being used 'as described'.

 

Also, if you (or your neighbour) made it a SPECIFIC condition of sale, that the awning wasn't (and would never be) green, then it is definitely 'not as described'. If they are aware that their awnings fade to green after a few years, but failed to point this out, even when you specifically said 'no green', then it has been mis-sold.

 

A stern letter to the dealer / retailer setting out your concerns, including specifics of previous repairs, should hopefully force some action. After that, Trading Standards etc...

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  • 1 month later...

If you purchase a car or a caravan with a 3 year warranty, would the warranty becoem void if you did not service the vehicle at the due time? Lets assume that you did not take it in for a service and there is a breakdown but the breakdown has absolutely nothing to with the vehicle being serviced or not. Legally how would you stand?

What if you had it serviced but not at an approved delearship for the brand of car or caravan and the service was done to industry standards?

Would the warranty become void anyway or would you be able to challenge it?

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As to where it should be done, Al Yankovic is correct, but I also believe that the warranty can stipulate that it must be of a similar standard that you would get at a dealership (in some cases rather poor!).

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In January 2005 we purchased new fixed bed caravan with a 3 year warranty. Purchase value is in excess of £18000. We have had a few things done under warranty, no issue.

However we tried to claim for the mattress sagging and the manufacturer via the dealer has rejected our claim under warranty stating that it is fair wear and tear and is excluded under the warranty. Just to add insult to injury, we have a mattress topper which indicates to me that if we did not have it, the mattress probably would have sagged a lot sooner.

If we have to buy a replacement we are probably looking at about £500.like buying a new car only to have the seats start to sag a year later and then be told srry it is not covered under warranty. The caravan has been in for a proper service every year at the main dealer .

What springs to mind is the following;

• Wherever goods are bought they must "conform to contract". This means they must be as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality (i.e. not inherently faulty at the time of sale).

• Goods are of satisfactory quality if they reach the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking into account the price and any description.

• Aspects of quality include fitness for purpose, freedom from minor defects, appearance and finish, durability and safety.

 

As the fixed bed mattress is an integral part of the caravan surely it should be covered for a minimum of 3 years even if you used the mattress every night. A domestic mattress is normally guaranteed for a period of 5 years depending on price paid.

Do you think I have any grounds for persuing this in order to obtain a replacement mattress and should it via the small claims court?

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Not sure about the warranty but if you could prove that this specific type of matress should not sag after such a short time you might be on to something. If there's a label on it get the brand name and google it to see if there's any mention of how long the manufacturer recons it should last. Send that off to the warranty people saying that the matress is work X value and is an integral part of the caravan - you can't sleep in it without a mattress, quote SOGA (someone else might know the exact relevant bit) that says something should last a reasonable amount of time and see where it goes from there. Warranties aren't my strong point but I think the usual CAG tactic of standing your ground might work here.

Any posts submitted here on the Consumer Action Group under the user name GlasweJen may not necessarily be the view of the poster, CAG or indeed any normal person.

 

I've become addicted to green blobs (I have 2 now) so feel free to tip my scales if I ever make sense.;-)

 

 

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  • 1 month later...

Under the following circumstances would a deposit be refundable? Can the dealer pass a credit allowing you to spend £300 of your £500 only in their shop? The person in question wants to find out if they can any more of their deposit back.

 

Being new to the buying of a caravan I started by looking firstly in a mag. then the internet. I friend suggested that I should call down to my local dealer*, friendly staff etc.

I found a large selection of new and used vans but to be honest the cost played a major part in what I should be looking at, with the help a very friendly assistant the wife and I were shown into a Bailey van and we both agreed we like this.

But looking closer in the van I noticed that the head linning had gathered around the top of a wall unit quite badly, When I enquired if this was a problem I was told NO that's nothing. again I'm thinking this van is £ 8,ooo plus.

When we were asked into the sales office I was told that if I wanted to hold the van I would need to place a deposit.

I needed a second opinion really on the head linning, I phoned my mate no answer. not wishing to miss out on an affordable van. I asked my wife to place a deposit of £500 until I could return back with my mate.

At that time NO mention that the deposit was non refundable.

I asked around some of the people I new that had vans and most agreed that I should look for something better.

I phoned the sales rep. and told him that I had changed my mind about the van and would it be possible to return my deposit. He then stated I had to speak to the manager. He in turn phoned me, I was then informed that deposits are not refundable but he would credit me £300 to spend in his shop.

I have now spent the money on things I needed for my new van. Should I take this chappy to court ?

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Hey, I can't be positive, but I believe that a shop can in fact refuse to refund a deposit. The general idea of a deposit is that it is a prepayment to a shop for them to keep goods which you intend to buy. I don't think you could even argue your way out of it on the basis that the caravan was flawed (ie the head linning) as you were actually aware of that before you paid the deposit, you even pointed it out to the shop. Therefore Sales of Goods Act etc faulty good rights do not apply.

 

Most deposits are nonrefundable, as they are an amount paid to the store which the store can keep to make up for lost sales etc whilst holding the goods for you.

 

Incidentally, the dealer did not even have to give you the £300 credit to spend in store.

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  • 2 years later...

We saw a Coachman caravan advertised as a 1992 Coachman Mirage VIP. After doing various checks regarding bodywork etc we decided to puchase the caravan.

On insuring the caravan we supplied the serial number only to be told that it was a 1990 Coachman 440/5 a different model and size to that advertised. We have subsequently found out that the VIP model came with an oven and blown air heating.

If we had known the caravan was at least two years older we would not have paid the amount £1395 for it as the value would have been closer to £1200 at the most. This is compared to other similar type caravans.

As we bought private and based on the incorrect and misleading advert description do we have any comeback?

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The Sale of Goods Act applies in general to any legitimate contract to sell goods and section 13 of the Act requires that the goods conform to description.

 

The comeback is of course to sue the seller, should you have to take it so far.

 

A false description could also be prosecuted as a criminal offence.

 

8-)

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I am not sure on this one as you viewed it before purhcase.

Please contact a member of the site team if you are offered help off the forum for a a paid or no win no fee service.

 

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You do but is it worth it? You wouldn't have known and were happy to pay the price for the goods you had sight of and were aware it didn't have an oven or blown air heating. The seller may not have been aware either and it's a mistake as they haven't concealed anything you could have looked at prior to purchase. You could ask them for a refund on what you would have been prepared to pay but to be fair, ( after shopping about for caravans myself), it's reasonably priced and you had the opportunity to make the checks.

What I WOULD do is check any future adverts and make sure they are not a trader that is selling from home under the pretence they are private sales.

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I was only able ascertain the age of the caravan once I had the serial number in my possession and did the insurance. The alarm bells only started to ring when I got home with it and started reading the handbook. The front cover of the handbook had been removed, but the contents referred to a 1990 caravan. That is when I checked the serial number which then showed that it was a totally different model to that advertised and at least 2 years older. Being two years older significantly drops the price by between £200 and £300.

On initial viewing he stated that he had bought it private from some one in Wales 18 months previously, but when confronted with the evidence from the serial number he then stated that 18 months previously he had bought it from a dealer for £6000 and that the dealer had it marked up as a 1992 caravan. Even if it was a 1992 caravan 18 months ago the value of the caravan would have been closer to about £2500 from a dealer after their mark up.

I am convinced that he knowingly set out to deceive, but proving it may be a problem. On ads on other websites the same caravan was listed as a 1992/1993 model which is contrary to what he said about the purchase from a dealer. It will cost me a about £1.20 to send a very legal looking letter advising that he has committed a criminal offence and if I do not get a suitable response within 14 days, the matter will be escalated. Hopefully he will have a sleepless night or two at the very leaast and think twice before he rips off any one else. Meantime I will relax and have a drink!

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You should have done all this before parting with your money. The original buyer may also have been misled or mistaken, but this doesn't mark their claim and description a deception. Why did you not query the lack of blown air heating at the time of viewing it?

 

If this was because even you were unaware it should have been a supplied extra until you made the offer for the item and the seller accepted, you will have a tough task in seeing enforcement through the courts. The seller would need to have set out to deceive you and you'll find that hard to do.

 

Moving onto a 'year' for the 'van - again this needs clarification. Since there is no VRM, the year of manufacture is seldom of any relevance. Especially as it could be sold, new 2 years after manufacture and yod complain it was misrepresented. The flip side, a 2010 'model' that actually hit the road in 2009. Another misrepresentation? I don't think so, as a 2010 model does not mean it was made in 2010, in much the same way that a '10 reg means the car was made in 2010'

Edited by buzby
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The difference is that the model was mis-described. It is like being told that a car has climate control when in fact it has only air conditioning and that the car instead of being a Super lux top of the range is only a standard car, but you have no way of knowing this until you read a handbook and then realise that there are three different levels of trim. Unfortunately the manufacturer does not reference serial numbers for caravans pre-1993.

As our loss is only about £300 although if we sold it tomorrow we would have more difficulty in shifting it becasue of the lowr spec, i guess we will just have to live with our mistake and put it down to experience. I supposed I could always follow TS guidelines and sedn the recorded letetr and if nothing happens forget about.

BTW it was advertised as a trade advert so not sure if he does this on a regualr basis. See http://www.ukcampsite.co.uk/forsale/v/Coachman-Mirage-V.I.P/5292

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I see where you are coming from, but this remains a private sale. Climate control is not the same as air conditioning. A wind deflector could also be a useful description for a window, as indeed a window is not an unreasonable term for climate control. It stops a gale blowing through the car.

 

Your ultimate sanction was to view your purchase, spot the errors and negotiate the price. Once you paid the deal was struck and the bargain complete. The technicalities you describe that are wrong require the seller to have knowingly misdescribed. He might have done, but you'd need to prove it. For £200, I think you got off lightly and learned a valuable lesson.

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There has been a chnage of circumstances. I have now established that the sellere is a traded pretending to be a private seller. Have a look at his profile at http://www.ukcampsite.co.uk/chatter/pop_up_profile.asp?profile=195138 and it will be seen that he has sold at least 11 caravans recently. As this is in fact a trade sale this in effect means I have more protection and in fact proves that he knowingly sold a misdesribed caravan to me.. I wonder if he is declaring his income to the revenue services or perhaps the benefits agency. I will definitley be forwarding thsionto trading Standards now and taking further action.

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Well, as you now know he is indeed a trader that does change things. You cannot realistically prove that he KNEW it was a 1990, although he possibly did. What you can say is that because of the model, it is misdescribed and thus you have some options to persue.

 

You could ask for a full refund as the caravan is not as described, or you could ask for compensaation of the difference between the real value (£1.200) and what you paid (£1,395).

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