Jump to content
Fringer

made redundant company gone under- owed 2mts wages

Recommended Posts

Hi all

 

Someone has just told me about this site and said it's the best place for advice

I wonder if anyone can help me please

 

The company I last worked at have just started liquidation proceedings. I was made redundant a month before this happened and so I have only received 1 months pay in lieu

My query is I've received a P45 from them but the pay to date figure states 2 months pay

They say their accountants said it's right as it's what I've earned - but I never received it and now I have to wait to see if there's any money to pay creditors who are beneficial into the continuity of the running of the business before I will get anything

Is this right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not 100% clear what you are saying here

- are you entitled to two months pay in lieu of notice,

or are you discussing gardening leave?

 

 

It is correct that if you are no longer an employee you do not enjoy the same protection from the redundancy payments service,

and so you are a simple creditor who may get some of their money,

but quite possibly not all of it (or none of it).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi

Thanks for getting back to me

I was told I would be entitled to 3 months in lieu of notice. I had only received 1 month (April) then I was told they were going into liquidation

I got my P45 of Friday and it has my leaving date as 31st May and pay to date states 2 months pay. I haven;t received 2 months money though so dont quite understand. Also the boxx said they went into liquidation on 1st June so I was wondering why I never got paid for May and why they have put i ton my P45 that I have?

Surely thats not right is it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You need to separate out ;

a) what pay / PILON, and

b) what (if any) redundancy you are owed.

 

How long had you had 'continuous service' there?.

 

You should work out a) and b) for both :

i) what your contract with the firm says (which you might try and claim from the liquidator, but expect 'pennies in the pound' at most), as well as

ii) what you could claim from the government statutory scheme for insolvent companies (which may be a less generous allowance that your contractual entitlement, as you only get what statute allows : but at least you should get it paid in full, unlike the remaining contractual amounts!)

 

The thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?477718-Company-closed-will-I-get-my-redundancy

has some useful links. (I gave up advising there, as that OP wasn't listening to the advice offered by me or another poster : but the links are still relevant!)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok thanks that makes sense

 

PILON was 3 months according to my contract

Redundancy was 3 weeks (I am 43 and had just over 2 years continuous service)

 

I understand that I'm likely to get nothing from the liquidator and maybe (if I'm lucky, a little bit from the government scheme) but I am really not sure about this P45 they have issued me as the Gross Pay to Date figure is clearly incorrect. Just wonder if this legal?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You need to work out both the PILON and redundancy for BOTH the contractual amounts and the statutory amounts.

 

Then work out if what you have had exceeds the statutory amounts : if so you can't claim it from the statutory scheme (as you've already had it........ and can't claim it twice!), as the statutory scheme is where you'll stand more chance of actually getting anything.

 

If you've already been paid the statutory amount (working it out for each for redundancy and pay/PILON) then it isn't worth claiming that amount from the statutory scheme as it'll be declined. You can then go back to trying to claim the excess from the insolvent company (if you decide it is worth the effort given the limited likelihood of success).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is this what you mean?

 

PILON should be 3 months @ £2500 gross = £7500

Redundancy should be 3 weeks @ £576.92 gross = £1730.76

Total = £9230.76

I've received £2500 gross

 

P45 states total pay to date £5000 gross

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You still need to look at the limits of what you can claim under the statutory scheme, at which point you may find that looking into if the PILON you received was 1 month or 2 months is irrelevant.

 

For now focus on the 'time' you are owed / were paid, rather than the 'amount'. So "1 weeks worth" or "1 months worth' and so on, rather than an amount. Then (if need be), at the end, you can convert that into amounts, bearing in mind the limits (time and amounts) of the statutory scheme .......

 

I'd suggest creating a table, something along the lines of :

(CAG text posts makes tables trickier for me, so here's a pdf of an example)

 

Then you can reassess what you can claim, and from where, and decide if it is worth it for what you are then likely to receive from that source.

CA.pdf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for those I will have a go when I'm on a computer

 

I just don't get why they would put 2 months pay on my P45 when I've only received 1 month. Something smells fishy to me

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

is there a statutory PILON amount?

Scrap that, just found it. It's 1 week for each year worked

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for the pdf Bazza I've filled it in

 

Statutory Statutory Actually Paid Actually Paid Contractual Contractual

PILON Redundancy (If paid 1 month) (if paid 2 months) PILON Redundancy

576.92 479 2500 2500 2500 576.92

x weeks x weeks 1 month 2 months x months x weeks

2 3 1 2 3 3

1153.84 1437 2500 5000 7500 1730.76

 

Calculated

Statutory PILON and Contractual PILON total £8653.84

Statutory Redundancy and Contractual Redundancy total £3167.76

 

Received

PILON £2500.00

 

Does that make sense?

 

Ooo sorry, posted before I saw your answer.

Yes I will use that when I finally get a reference number. Cant do anything until then I know.

 

From what I can make out, even just the statutory payments total £2590.84 so cannot fathom why they would put £5000 on the P45

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thank you for the pdf Bazza I've filled it in

 

Statutory Statutory Actually Paid Actually Paid Contractual Contractual

PILON Redundancy (If paid 1 month) (if paid 2 months) PILON Redundancy

576.92 479 2500 2500 2500 576.92

x weeks x weeks 1 month 2 months x months x weeks

2 3 1 2 3 3

1153.84 1437 2500 5000 7500 1730.76

 

Calculated

Statutory PILON and Contractual PILON total £8653.84

Statutory Redundancy and Contractual Redundancy total £3167.76

 

Received

PILON £2500.00

 

Does that make sense?

 

As I said, tables are hard when posting in text on CAG. :)

 

The point you'll be able to see from that table is that your actual pay received (even 1 month or 2 months) exceeds the stat PILON (2 weeks), so no point in going for that from the stat scheme, as you'll get nowt extra.

You can still try and get it from the insolvent company, but don't hold out hope for anything at all, or more than pennies in the pound, (for contractual PILON or contractual redundancy).

 

However, if you were entitled to redundancy (had you resigned, or were you made redundant?), if you haven't been paid redundancy from the firm, you can claim that from the statutory scheme (3 weeks worth). If you get that 3 weeks worth from the scheme, you should get all that you are owed, within that scheme's limits so you don't have to risk getting pennies in the pound from the company (for that, limited, statutory sum).

 

It is easier to see what you can get, and where, from the table. You claim what you can from the statutory scheme, as it pays out (guaranteed recovery as it is government funded, but often less than your contractual entitlement as it has different, statutory, limits that can be less than your contractual entitlement), and then decide if you want to try to claim any extra you (that you are entitled to claim but only MIGHT get paid, as the company is insolvent), claiming from the company .....

 

what you haven't yet included is the limit (per week) reclaimable from the government scheme.

https://www.gov.uk/your-rights-if-your-employer-is-insolvent/claiming-money-owed-to-you

 

You've already had more than 2 weeks PILON paid, so forget about PILON from the statutory scheme. Up to you if you want to try and get something from the liquidator for any outstanding Contractual PILON.

 

If you are entitled to redundancy : claim from the stat scheme for the redundancy you can get there (£479/week x 3 weeks).

Up to you if you want to try and get something from the liquidator for any outstanding Contractual Redundancy left owing after you've recovered some from the statutory scheme.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah I pretty much gathered I would get sweet FA from the company.

Its good to know I can claim statutory notice though. Thank you for that

 

I'm worried that the figure they have put on the P45 would bugger up any claim

 

Am I focusing on this too much?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yeah I pretty much gathered I would get sweet FA from the company.

Its good to know I can claim statutory notice though. Thank you for that

 

You can't.

You've had more already paid to you by the company than you could claim for statutory notice. You won't get anything for statutory notice pay.

 

I phrased this previously as:

The point you'll be able to see from that table is that your actual pay received (even 1 month or 2 months) exceeds the stat PILON (2 weeks), so no point in going for that from the stat scheme, as you'll get nowt extra.

 

..........

 

You've already had more than 2 weeks PILON paid, so forget about PILON from the statutory scheme.

 

 

 

 

I'm worried that the figure they have put on the P45 would bugger up any claim

 

Am I focusing on this too much?

 

Probably.

It won't make a difference to Stat PILON : you won't get that

It won't make a difference to Stat redundancy : you should get that.

 

It might make a difference to contractual PILON but it will be at best marginal (if anything!) due to 'pennies in the pound'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok I think I understand

 

Thanks again for your help

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi all

 

Someone has just told me about this site and said it's the best place for advice

I wonder if anyone can help me please

 

The company I last worked at have just started liquidation proceedings. I was made redundant a month before this happened and so I have only received 1 months pay in lieu

My query is I've received a P45 from them but the pay to date figure states 2 months pay

They say their accountants said it's right as it's what I've earned - but I never received it and now I have to wait to see if there's any money to pay creditors who are beneficial into the continuity of the running of the business before I will get anything

Is this right?

 

Update

 

I had a tribunal of which it was found in my favour and the company ordered to pay me redundancy however, the company is now in liquidation... BUT

 

I was told that my P45 figure states what I would have earned up until the end of May. I was also told unoffically by the ops manager that the new owner was paying staffs wages for May although under the old company.

I have today been sent a pay slip of mine for the month of May that I never received the payment for!

 

Surely this proves that the company director was acting dishonestly and the new owner who paid every one elses wages should have paid mine as well?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

wait ad see if you get paid first. The liability for the payment will have passed over to the new company unless companies house decide thst the directors are personally liable for the debts (rare)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The liability for the payment will have passed over to the new company unless companies house decide thst the directors are personally liable for the debts (rare)

 

That's not likely to be correct unless the "new owner" that Fringer refers to has bought the actual company OP worked for by acquiring its share capital. That seems highly unlikely given that it was already in liquidation. More likely the so-called "new owners" have bought premises and assets from the liquidator and either absorbed it into their existing company or created a new one. In which case the "new owner" is not liable for the payment of unpaid wages by the company that is now in liquidation. That liability remains with the liquidators but only insofar as there are sufficient funds to pay the wages (+ of course what is payable under the government scheme linked to earlier).

 

BTW Companies House has no power to decide if a director is personally liable in insolvency. That's a matter for the courts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it worth me getting a solicitor?

 

I sent a message to the ops manager recently as she has now left the company and we were supposed to be friends.

She got nasty with me and said I wasn't entitled to the pay as I should have been sacked for poor performance!

Never once was I spoken to about poor performance in the 2 years I was there.

I did refuse to have anything to do with the directors false invoicing and wrote that in a letter before I left.

The fact he was changing invoices figures and then uploading them to the wrong account with the factoring company in order to get a draw down.

I think by her putting that in a text to me they're gonna try and blame me for it as they have a case on going with a huge company they had over and owe 150k to

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Is it worth me getting a solicitor?

 

I sent a message to the ops manager recently as she has now left the company and we were supposed to be friends.

She got nasty with me and said I wasn't entitled to the pay as I should have been sacked for poor performance!

Never once was I spoken to about poor performance in the 2 years I was there.

 

Doesn't matter what SHOULD have happened - the facts relate to what ACTUALLY happened and you have proof of the amount that was due to you. Copies of bank statements (providing that this was the usual route for salary payments) would also show that what was paid differed from the amount stated?

 

A solicitor may well charge more than you are due but there would probably be no harm in getting a free consultation if you can - just to outline your options


Any advice given is done so on the assumption that recipients will also take professional advice where appropriate.

 

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

DONATE HERE

 

If I have been helpful in any way - please feel free to click on the STAR to the left!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is what I thought.

Still if the company is in liquidation, I still won't get any money will I? Even though I have proof the ops manager said the new owner was paying the wages for the month they were supposed to pay me for

Can I go after the new owner?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you can get a free consultation with a solicitor you could ask. Probably the answer will be that you are a creditor and will have to wait and see that the liquidators eventually pay out. I think employees with unpaid wages rank as priority creditors but I haven't been able to check whether ex-employees redundancy pay also has priority. So you might (eventually) get most of it back. Might be worth asking the liquidator how things stand. Is the ops manager now working for the 'new owner'? If not it's really irrelevant what she said as she isn't a manager or officer of the new company and presumably has no authority to make commitments of their behalf. In any case sounds like she said the new owner was paying current employees - presumably to retain them in the business - and you had left a month before the liquidation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

She was working for them until 2 weeks ago.

It was while she was still there I text her to ask if the Director was going to have me over and she said the new owner was paying staff from his company even though the paperwork hadn't gone through for the liquidation.

 

When I was offered redundancy I asked for a lump sum but was told the company had no money so I would have to be paid monthly as a wage

I then received the first month's pay, nothing the 2nd month then all of a sudden I received a P45 stating I'd left

The P45 year to date figure stated I'd received 2 months pay in that year but I had only received the one. It is only now I've discovered that the payroll was actually run for me they just never paid me.

I emailed and asked where the 2nd month's money was and she told me that was the figure I'd earned, not necessarily what I was to be paid!

 

The owner was so dodgy, one time he paid someone a penny saying he didn't have enough to pay out and the bloke was loaded and wouldn't notice.

 

He thinks I'm just going to walk away but he's also stolen our pension contributions. He was reported every month for non payment of pensions yet they were still being stopped from our wages.

 

It makes my blood boil to think he just walks away Scott free

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If you can get a free consultation with a solicitor you could ask. Probably the answer will be that you are a creditor and will have to wait and see that the liquidators eventually pay out. I think employees with unpaid wages rank as priority creditors but I haven't been able to check whether ex-employees redundancy pay also has priority. So you might (eventually) get most of it back. Might be worth asking the liquidator how things stand. Is the ops manager now working for the 'new owner'? If not it's really irrelevant what she said as she isn't a manager or officer of the new company and presumably has no authority to make commitments of their behalf. In any case sounds like she said the new owner was paying current employees - presumably to retain them in the business - and you had left a month before the liquidation.

 

Can I just check, you said employees with unpaid wages are priority -

I have since been sent a payslip for the 2nd month of my redundancy (of which I never received the payment) which explains why my P45 figure is wrong

 

The liquidator has told HMRC that I left the post in March even though my redundancy was supposed to be until the end of June - now the redundancy service are asking me for money back as they paid me 1 week redundancy

 

The liquidator is insisting that my employment ended the day I walked out and is also saying that they are unable to make payment to me as it constitutes a preference payment. Surely though if my payroll was run for the month of May and I never received the money, this constitutes stealing??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Please fill in your quit date here

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    No registered users viewing this page.



  • Tweets

  • Our picks

    • This is a bit of a lengthy one but I’ll summerise best as possible.
       
      THIS IS HOW THE PHONECALL WENT 
       
      I was contacted by future comms by phone, they stated that they could beat any phone contract I have , (I am a limited company but just myself that needs a business phone and I am the only worker) 
      I told future comms my deal, £110 per month with a phone and a virtual landline, they confirmed that they could beat that, £90 per month with a phone , virtual landline  they also confirmed they would pay Vodafone (previous provider) the termination fee. As I am in business, naturally I was open to making a deal. So we proceeded. 
      Future comms then revealed that the contract would be with PLAN.COM and the airtime would be provided by 02, I instantly told them that this would break the deal as I have poor 02 signal in the house where I live as my partner is on 02 and constantly complaining about bad signal
      the salesman assured me he would send a signal booster box out with the phone so I would have perfect signal.
      so far so good.....
      i then explained this is the only mobile phone I use for business and pleasure, so therefore I didn’t want any disconnection time in the slightest between the switchover from Vodafone to 02
      the salesman then confirmed that the existing phone would only be disconnected once the new phone was switched on.
      so far so good....
      • 14 replies
    • I was talked into signing up with Future Comms (future-comms.co.uk) who cold-called me to change my mobile contract to them, via 02, rather than EE. I have a small business (only me!) and it's a business contract. True, the 4G network is better for my area. This company seemed to be a marketing set-up for various telecoms companies, so I assumed anything I signed would be with 02 and didn't think it might be a problem.
       
      They sent an email whilst I was on the phone to set up the direct debit mandate with my bank which I signed electronically. That was the first, of many, problems I found. Apparently THAT was my contract, binding me to 3 years and no 'cooling off' period, because I was a 'business' (meaning any consumer rights did not apply). When I subsequently asked in writing for a copy of my contract, that is what they sent - when I argued it was a DD mandate they insisted it was my contract!
       
      2 days later they asked for my phone details to get it unlocked which I sent. 10 days later, EE closed my account, so I changed the SIM card to 02 that had come a few days before. No network! They had done nothing about unlocking it. Fortunately I was lucky with EE who managed to give me the right codes, rather than the usual 10 days to go through Samsung.
       
      By this time I was suspicious of their set-up and wanted to cancel. As I said earlier, I found myself trapped into a 3 year contract with no 14 day cooling off period (they don't offer that). Promises to deal with my complaints never happened, promised return calls neither....and on and on.
       
      Ofcom's rules apply to consumers and small businesses (under 10 employees), yet this shower don't acknowledge that. They just repeat and repeat that I am a business so it doesn't apply. To cancel the contract I have to pay the full 3 year's fees!!
       
      I would like to know if others have had similar experiences? Or does anyone know how I can maybe declare the 'contract' unenforceable? I have never before been locked into something without a clear written contract, with t&c's! And, yes, I have asked, and yes, I have been ignored.
      • 84 replies
    • Future comms!. Read more at https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/415706-future-comms/
      • 10 replies
    • A shocking story of domestic and economic abuse compounded by @BarclaysUKHelp ‏ bank complicity – coming soon @A_Gentle_Woman. Read more at https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/415737-a-shocking-story-of-domestic-and-economic-abuse-compounded-by-barclaysukhelp-%E2%80%8F-bank-complicity-%E2%80%93-coming-soon-a_gentle_woman/
      • 0 replies
×
×
  • Create New...