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MaxxPower

Second hand car back in garage for third time

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Ok, posting this on behalf of my soon to be sister-in-law. I've tried to get what I thought were all the pertinent facts but I'm sure there are things missing. Anyway, getting to the issue.

 

On 28th April 2017 she purchased a 64 plate Renault Clio from a garage. When test driving the car it had flagged up it had a puncture via the pressure monitor, but the garage advised they would get this sorted. On picking up the car the issue had indeed been sorted so she drove away happy.

1 week later she took the car back to the garage for the first time due to a scraping noise when using the brakes. This issue was resolved by the garage and has not occurred since.

 

2 weeks after that the car once again came up that it had a puncture on the built-in pressure monitor. She took it to a tyre place to be checked but they advised all 4 tyres were fine and had no punctures. The car was taken back to the garage it was purchased from and then returned with the fault said to be resolved.

Just yesterday however the same puncture notification has come back again, and so the car has gone back into the garage again. They've advised they'll check all the tyres and sensors to identify the problem and if needed replace the tyres.

 

Obviously however she and my brother are losing faith in the car as it's now been back to the garage 3 times, twice for the same problem. The potential problem is that they're now outside of the 30 day rejection period.

 

The car was paid for via trading in an old car, for which she was given £1,300, plus another £500 cash, and the rest is via finance. I believe this is Hire Purchase finance but I've not seen the agreement and I'm not sure who it's with. It's a type of financing where she'll own the car at the end without a balloon payment being required as you'd get with PCP.

 

 

Basically I'm wanting to know what options she realistically will have on getting the car back if the issue happens again. Despite being outside of the 30 day window does she have any rights of rejection and to get a refund? If her traded in car has been sold would she be entitled to the £,1300 they paid her in cash instead plus her original £500 back? If they haven't sold the car and can return her old one, but she's offered less on trade in from another garage will this one need to refund her that difference?

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Just a bump to this as my brother has just advised me the same fault has occurred again for the third time and so the car is going back to the garage for the fourth time in total.

 

I just wanted to clarify my (to be) sister-in-laws legal rights before we start insisting on a refund.

I'm assuming we can also involve the Finance Company, but what would we say to them?

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Hi guys, sorry to be triple posting but I could really use some advise on this one.

The car was collected from the garage today after having been there for the last 4 days and halfway home all the pressure sensors went off yet again, so the car is now on the way straight back to the garage.

 

Can we now demand a refund of the £1,300 trade-in value from the previous car, the £500 cash that was provided and cancellation of the finance agreement? We're past the 30 day period now, but the issue first surfaced and was originally reported and fixed within 30 days and the car is now heading back to the garage for the same issue for the fourth time, making it a fifth return in total. Obviously my brother and his fiance have completely lost all confidence in the car and they have a 1 year old daughter, so need something they can rely on.

 

 

Update -

My brother has just called me and advised he's asked the garage for a refund and cancellation of the finance, they've refused with the response "It doesn't work like that"

 

Where do we go from here? Do we need to send them a letter giving them 14 days to refund and then if they don't take them to small claims court? The garage currently has the car, so do we simply leave it with them and refuse to take it back?

 

 

Looking at this section of the AA website,

 

https://www.theaa.com/car-buying/legal-rights

 

Faults, repairs and refunds

 

Under the new act, if a fault renders the product not of satisfactory quality, not fit for purpose or not as described, then the buyer is entitled to reject it within the first 30 days.

 

Between 30 days and 6 months

 

If a fault comes to light after 30 days but before 6 months you’re entitled to a repair, replacement or refund.

 

It’s assumed in law that the fault was present at the time of purchase unless the seller can prove otherwise.

Unless you’ve agreed otherwise, the seller (dealer) has only one opportunity to repair (or replace) the faulty vehicle after which, if they fail to repair it, you’re entitled to a refund.

In the event of a refund following a failed attempt at repair during the first six months the seller may make a 'reasonable' adjustment to the amount refunded to take account of the use that you’ve had of the vehicle.

 

 

My reading of this is that we're legally entitled to a refund, but we may have to take the dealership to small claims court in order to get it.

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Last try to get some help on this guys. Please?

 

I've just been told that the garage are point blank refusing any kind of refund despite having had the car back 5 times in less than a month and a half and that once it's repaired again she will have to take it back.

I could really use some advice on just what her legal rights are in dealing with this as we go forward.

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Personally I don't think a refund is appropriate for such a minor fault...although I agree that they should fix it.

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Agree with Oddjob, seems like an over reaction.

 

 

The TPMS system is a pain and frankly does nothing that a responsible owner should be doing in the first place however in the UK there are some quirks with the system for a variety of reasons one of which is as stupid as it sounds, is that the UK aftersales market uses different tyre pressure gauges to the rest of the world generally.

 

 

If the car is on a 64 plate then it is likely to be a 15 Model year where TPMS became mandatory and there was a huge spike in warranty claims from all manufacturers due to the fact that guidance hadn't been given by the retailers on exactly how the system worked.

 

 

My investigations showed that the systems worked correctly and the root cause was dealers depressurising the tyres during PDI and subsequently owners checking pressures as the warning light had come on. What happens is that the pressure check is carried out with a wand type of gauge and the mechanic or customer tends to lean on it and hence cracks the valve stem leading to a slow leak. The propensity to fail is higher in winter than in summer as the valve stem design and material is not durable when used with a wand and gets brittle below freezing point.

 

 

Would suggest you follow the route below:

1. does the system work on the rolling radius of the wheel and tyre assembly as if it does the system is designed to be that sensitive in that a worn tyre is enough to trigger the light.

2. if not then it will have a sensor in the valve (as mentioned above) and you need to check for leaks around the valve base. The system will only trigger if it detects a pressure drop in excess of 25% of the recommended pressure.

3. as is a used car ensure tyre wear is consistent around the car

4. ask the checking dealer to indicate which corner is triggering the light. The system diagnostics will tell them that.

5. don't forget the spare wheel if fitted, it' overlooked often.

6. take it to a Renault dealer to be diagnosed correctly.

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The issue is that the system has failed for the fourth time despite being "repaired" every single time by the garage. The selling dealer have currently sent it to a Renault dealer for the fourth repair so I suppose we'll see how it goes, but even if it seems like a minor fault surely a near constant recurrence of it gives reason enough to reject the car as having lost all confidence in it?

 

I'm presuming the Renault dealership will check the tyres as well, but I'll recommend to my brother that they take the car to a local garage for a proper tyre check as well just to make sure wear is consistent and that there aren't any other issues with the tyres that the dealer has missed/not highlighted. They did take it to a garage after the first instance of the pressure sensor going off and they checked all tyres for leaks and found none, but for peace of mind I'll recommend they go get a second opinion from a different garage, and have the spare wheel checked at the same time.

For questions 1 and 2 though, I've not a clue if I'm honest. Car mechanics just aren't my thing at all. I'll see if I can get the exact model details though and a bit of Googling might reveal the answer to that one.

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Well TPMS is not all it seems. You get a lot of warning if there's something wrong with the system, but it should work. I can guarantee it will go wrong again at some point. However, rejecting a car is not that easy and you'd be better off pursuing a fix.

 

 

Admittedly it might be an inconvenience but what does it actually do? Just tells you the tyre pressures are low. It won't tell you of an impending blow out or anything useful.

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it is a tilt switch and not a pressure monitor that is designed to warn you when a tyre deflates by recognising that this causes the car to lean one way.

 

 

If you load the vehicle to one side the warning will come on and it wont go off until reset properly. some makes of car have problems with these switches.

 

Waht to do?

be careful how you load the vehicle so to balance the car out always take a passenger with you, put your shopping on the roof and dont go round corners that have a camber on the road. other than that, ignore the thing and have it reset when you go for a MOT test

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it is a tilt switch and not a pressure monitor that is designed to warn you when a tyre deflates by recognising that this causes the car to lean one way.

If you load the vehicle to one side the warning will come on and it wont go off until reset properly. some makes of car have problems with these switches.

Waht to do?

be careful how you load the vehicle so to balance the car out always take a passenger with you, put your shopping on the roof and dont go round corners that have a camber on the road. other than that, ignore the thing and have it reset when you go for a MOT test

 

 

 

Absolute rubbish, just hope you are trying to be funny!

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yes and no, there are 2 types of tyre pressure monitor and the 3 makes of vehicles I have all use the external monitoring method that measures either the axial run out or the inclination of the vehicle. TPMS that are internal to the wheel are more prone to packing up and have to be replaced rather than reset but do measure the actual pressure of the tyre and other things as well

Both systems have their foibles hence the comment about loading the car carefully.

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Yes indeed there are only 2 types of TPMS. The in wheel pressure sensor and the rolling radius of the tyre utilising the wheel speed sensors adopted from the ABS system. I have never heard of a tilt detection mechanism to monitor tyre pressures in the 35 plus years I have been involved in the industry and as someone who actually defines the specifications of the said systems one can only conclude that the advice you give is dangerously erroneous.

 

 

There are those that know and those that think they know and I'd place you in the latter.

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Surely the difference in height for a tyre that waas say 5lb flat woul only be about 1/4 inch?

 

tilt thing can't possibly work - otherwise surely road camber/ weak spring / uneven road/ worn balljoint etc would set it off?

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5lb wouldn't even equate to that oddjob. It's a response from someone who has no idea what they are talking about. What I don't know about TPMS aint worth knowing as when it was made mandatory I was inundated with issues predominantly due to people who did not understand how it worked!!!!

 

 

Still seems to be the case though!"

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Well, I have no knowledge at all of how these things work: but getting back to topic, I think it is too trivial a reason to get a refund.

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Agreed, as usual it needs proper diagnosis to root cause the fault. This is often where it goes wrong, unqualified people , lack of experience and a general lack of knowledge about how basic systems work leads to inappropriate legal action!

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Well the car is back. According to the garage they did fix the problem the first time, but apparently the sensors can only be properly reset by a Renault Dealer which has now been done. Personally I'm not of a mind to trust them as surely they should have known this from the outset. I've told my brother and his fiance to keep hold of every repair docket they've got though as I'm convinced something more is going to go wrong with the car, almost certainly after the 6 month period, at which point getting the garage to do anything will become significantly more difficult. Have evidence to show previous faults, not to mention a less than professional response from the garage, will make any future action a little easier.

I can appreciate people saying it's not a major fault, but a fault is a fault, and especially when paying thousands for a car that's not that old there's certainly got to be an expectation of a product without faults, as well as an expectation of the garage selling it to have some knowledge of the product they're selling. It may not seem like a major fault to some, but if your car is almost constantly telling you that tyres are losing pressure while driving and there's a baby in the back that's quickly going to lead to a lot of pulling over and checking tyres on a near constant basis, and just ignoring the warnings as thinking it's just a dodgy sensor yet again could potentially lead to a serious accident.

 

Had they sent it to Renault for a proper reset in the first place, rather than trying to do things on the cheap and bluff their way through when they clearly didn't have the correct knowledge to resolve the issue, all of this could have been avoided.

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It's pleasing to hear the problem has been sorted out now but it sends out a message to all. Whilst the used car industry needs tidying up it is only the main dealer network that are in the know as regards the systems employed. In truth it will filter down but generally speaking the aftersales market is 4 or 5 years behind perhaps longer. This further reinforces my argument for the regulation of the used car side of the industry as they are getting more complex each year. Look forward in 5 years time to blueray complaints along with a whole host of other electronic based issues.

What cannot be controlled it seems is the inability of consumer legislation to recognise original design intent !

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