Arrow/REstons claimform - Aged HSBC OD Debt

[jimit2017]

Hello,

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated on this matter.

 

As a younger man I got myself into a myriad of debt issues. This resulted in a debt management plan via Payplan being instructed when things got out of hand. This ran for about 5 years but ended in 2013 when I got severely ill and let all my finances collapse.

 

I'm now better and trying to rebuild things but it seems every now and then I get a chancer trying to chase an old debt that may not have been fully paid by the time debt management plan fell apart. One company also has managed to get a charge on my house already by filing court paperwork at an old address which I never saw until it was too late.

 

Now I have a claim from Arrow Global about a £700 debt to HSBC that I really know nothing about. I have contacted Payplan to see if was part of my debt management plan with them and they say they have no record of a HSBC debt. I certainly haven't taken any credit out since 2013.

 

They court papers are dated 8th May - I got an Acknowledgement out to them but now am considering my defense.

 

I was thinking of asking for proof of the debt - the original signed credit agreement for one thing - but is this something I need to do direct with Arrow or through my court defense?

 

Any tips would be appreciated, as I said, I have read through similar claims on the forum which talk about submitting AOS's etc but this makes no sense to me.

 

Unfortunately, time is ticking - I only have a week to get a defense in...

 

Thank you for reading. J

[dx100uk]

can you complete this please

so we have all the correct info to advise

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?419198-You-have-received-a-Claim-What-you-need-to-do.-**UPDATED-2016**(3-Viewing)-nbsp

[jimit2017]

Name of the Claimant ? Arrow Global Limited

 

Date of issue – 8th May 2017

 

What is the claim for –

1.The Claimant claims payment of the overdue balance due from the Defendents under a contract between the Defendants and HSBC on or about the Aug 01 2011 and assigned to the Claimant on May 13 2014

PARTICULARS a/c no - 00000000000

 

DATE ITEM VALUE

10/03/17 Default Balance £550.76

Post Refrl Cr Nil

TOTAL : 550.76

 

What is the value of the claim? £680.76

 

Is the claim for a current (Overdraft) or credit card /loan or catalogue or mobile phone account? No

 

When did you enter into the original agreement before or after 2007?

I do not know but Arrow claim 2011 which seems highly unlikely as I have not taken on any credit during my debt managemnt plan which ran from around 2008 to 2013.

 

Has the claim been issued by the original creditor

or was the account assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim. Assigned

 

Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment? I don't recall any correspondence regarding this debt

 

Did you receive a Default Notice from the original creditor? I don't recall any correspondence regarding this debt

 

Have you been receiving statutory notices headed “Notice of Default sums” – at least once a year ? I don't recall any correspondence regarding this debt

 

Why did you cease payments? I personally ceased all payments to all creditors as I entered into an agreement with PayPlan in around 2008 who then handled payments to all my creditors.

 

What was the date of your last payment? I dont know

 

Was there a dispute with the original creditor that remains unresolved? I dont know

 

Did you communicate any financial problems to the original creditor

and make any attempt to enter into a debt management planicon? I dont know what this debt is for - nor does Payplan

[dx100uk]

what type of credit is this no good answering NO to our list!

I bet this is an HSBC 'managed loan'

whereby they merged a card, loan and OD balance into a 'managed loan'

the dumped the full balance bank into the OD account creating a massive negative balance.

 

 

is this Restons too..looks like their vry minimal POC to hide the above unlawful actions by HSBC.

[jimit2017]

Ah sorry! I read the question as "Is the claim for a current (Overdraft) or credit card /loan or catalogue or mobile phone account?" - The "no" was because it is not current.

 

As I say, I literally have no idea what it could be for. Payplan do not have it listed as one of my debts either. I never had a loan from HSBC. I did have a current account but never went overdrawn. I had a business account too but there shouldn't be any debts on that. That was shut down in 2013, so was the personal one.

 

Yes, the "Address for sending documents..." is Restons Solicitors

 

Thanks!

[dx100uk]

go ring HSBC and ask last payment date or use

use the account number in the POC.

do NOT ring the claimants/rectums.

 

 

dx

[jimit2017]

Good idea! Well, that proved very interesting.

I know what its about now!

 

I opened a second account with HSBC in 2011

- they blagged me into opening an advanced account so I could make use of the free holiday insurance etc. I thought it would be useful to have another bank account for some reason.

 

The guy on the phone from HSBC just told me

- There are a couple of credit's by me in August 2011.

Then the account was never used again by me.

 

Strangely there is still activity on the account up until November 2013 whereby HSBC are crediting the fees they took back into the account.

 

 

It would appear that the Advanced account fees being deducted from an empty account caused it to go into an informal overdraft, HSBC then whacked on late fees etc and whipped up a nice little balance for themselves of £550.76

 

The guy on the phone mentioned, that the day before the account closed a balance arrived to wipe out the £550.76 debt - but he could not verify who's account this transfer arrived from.

 

I asked him if "as far as HSBC are concerned did this transfer pay off the debt and so closing the account on a £0 balance?"

 

The guys response was "I could only tell you that if I could see where the transfer came from!."

 

to cut a long story short the debt is for an informal overdraft on a debit current account.

[dx100uk]

ok

you said you ack'd the claim

did you send off a CPR 31:14 too?

 

 

dx

[jimit2017]

No, I ack'd the claim online.

 

I phoned the court about sending the defense, they advised to email it. I thought I would seek advice here before going any further.

 

I'm not sure what a CPR 31:14 is.

 

Thanks

[jimit2017]

Aha! A request for disclosure of documents!

[jimit2017]

So, I should post the following letter to Restons Solicitors?

 

Template removed

[AndyOrch]

Please use the following CPR 31.14 for Overdrafts.

 

Andy

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?387483-LEGAL-CPR-31.14-Request-when-Claim-is-being-made-for-a-Current-Account

[jimit2017]

OK, Thank you very much!

 

So, just send this for now? Is there anything else to do?

[AndyOrch]

No...just get the request away...and start looking at current account overdraft defences and keep an eye on your defence due date.

[jimit2017]

Thanks. I have sent off the CPR.

 

I have been looking at defenses and what I am finding on Google seem to be extremely complex. I am really unsure as to what avenue to pursue.

[AndyOrch]

Why you looking on Google ?

 

Perhaps looking here on CAG may prove more effective.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?190-Legal-Successes

[jimit2017]

Aha. I did try and search the forum but got redirected​ off to Google. Unsure why.

 

Thanks. I will take a butchers there!

[jimit2017]

OK, I have been looking on the forums and I cannot find a defense that isnt really specific to a persons personal circumstances. In short I have no idea what to write and only about 24 hours to get something submitted!

 

Is there any basic template available for such a thing that might at least serve as a starting point?

 

Thanks

[AndyOrch]

No defences are specif to everyone's case...they are not templates and must be edited to suit.

[jimit2017]

OK, So I am intending to send the defence as follows. I need to send it today.

 

Particulars of Claim for reference only

1.The Claimant claims payment of the overdue balance due from the Defendents under a contract between the Defendants and HSBCicon on or about the Aug 01 2011 and assigned to the Claimant on May 13 2014

PARTICULARS a/c no - 00000000000

 

DATE ITEM VALUE

10/03/17 Default Balance £550.76

Post Refrl Cr Nil

TOTAL : 550.76

 

 

The defendant disputes the full amount claimed as shown on the claim form.

 

With reference to the Particulars of Claim:

 

1. The defendant denies any agreement with the claimant and is put to strict proof to provide a true copy of the original agreement referenced as xxxxxx/xxxxx

 

2. The Defendant notes that the Claimant does not state that a Default Notice was sent as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and is put to strict proof that the requirements of the Act were complied with.

 

3. The Defendant notes that they have had previous financial dealings with HSBC but denied that any debt is owed to the claimant, Arrow Global Limited or otherwise.

 

4. The Defendant does not recall receiving a Notice of Assignment.

 

5. The claimant is put to strict proof to show:

 

(A) (i)show how the Defendant has entered into an agreement; and

(ii) show how the Defendant has reached the amount claimed for; and

(iii) show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim;

(v) show and evidence that the defendant was issued with a default notice

(vi) show that the claimant and the agreement has complied with all requirements under the Consumer Credit Act (1974) (vii) show that the claimant has the legal FCA authorisation to issue the claim.

 

(B) Interest pursuant to Section 69 County Court Act (1984) is denied. This is only awarded at

discretion of the Judge if the claim is upheld. It is noted that the Claimant has used this to

Inflate the claim total.

 

After receipt of this claim, I requested copies of the documents referred to in the Claimant’s Particulars of Claim by way of a Civil Procedure Request 31, PD 14. This was sent via guaranteed next day delivery and signed for on the 03/06/17 The Claimant has yet to respond.

 

As per Civil Procedure Rule 16.5(4), it is expected that the Claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed.

 

Until such time the Claimant can comply with my request for a true copy of the original agreement that complies with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act (1974) and other documents relied upon in the Claimant’s Particulars of Claim, the Claimant is prevented from enforcing or requesting any relief as pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

By reason of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Andyorch
Particulars added

[dx100uk]

no such things as agreement on OD's

and they don't mention s 69 int at all in their poc.

 

 

I would be angling toward the balance solely being penalty/account fees.

 

 

use the top red toolbar

search CAG box

 

 

claimform Arrow HSBC OD

[AndyOrch]

Please do not submit that defence...stick to the tried and tested.

 

Edit to suit.....

 

#####Defence#####

 

1. Paragraph 1,I accept that I have held a current account with Lloyds Bank Plc. I have not serviced this account since 2009 due to the punitive charges and interest being applied which made the account untenable and impossible to facilitate. The amount claimed is far in excess of any agreed overdraft limit with Lloyds Bank. I deny that the account exceeded an agreed overdraft limit due to overdrawing of funds and claim that this is a result of unfair and extortionate bank charges/penalties being applied to the account. It is therefore denied that I am indebted for any alleged outstanding residue.

 

2.Paragraph 2 is denied I do not admit to defaulting on payments nor receiving Notice served under 76(1) and 98(1) of the CCA1974 Demand /Recall Notice and the Claimant is put to strict proof to evidence any breach.

 

3. Paragraph 3 is denied I have never been served a Notices of Assignment in accordance with s.136 Law of Property Act 1925.

 

4. As per Civil Procedure Rule 16.5(4), it is expected that the Claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed.

 

The claimant is also put to strict proof to:-.

 

(a) Provide a copy agreement/facility arrangement along with the Terms and conditions at inception, which this claim is based on.

(b) Provide a copy of the Notice served under 76(1) and 98(1) of the CCA1974 Demand /Recall Notice and Notice of Assignment.

© Provide a breakdown of their excessive charging/fees levied to the account with justification.

(d) Show how the Claimant has reached the amount claimed.

(e) Show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim.

(f) Show how they have complied with sections III & IV of Practice Direction - Pre-action Conduct.

 

5. On receipt of this claim I immediately requested documentation by way of a CPR 31.14 request, which was received by the Claimant on the 7th July 2014. The Claimant has failed to comply with this request. Therefore the claimant in their non compliance to my requests have frustrated my attempts to clarify their claim and against pre action protocol should be considered when the question of costs arise.

 

By reason of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief.

 

 

Or alternative........

 

 

####Defence####

 

1. It is admitted with regards to the Defendant having had a Current Account with the original creditor Lloyds Bank PLC.It is denied I have ever had an overdraft facility.

The account was closed in February 2008 with conformation and new banking facilities created elsewhere.

 

2. The defendant denies that the alleged amount was for finance service or goods but is as a result of unfair and extortionate bank charges/penalties being applied to the account by way of an unauthorised overdraft placed and created by LLoyds TSB Bank.

 

3. I refute the claimants claim is owed or payable. The amount claimed consists entirely of default penalties/charges levied on the account for alleged late, rejected or over limit payments. The court will be aware that these charge types and the recoverability thereof have been judicially declared to be susceptible to assessments of fairness under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 The Office of Fair Trading v Abbey National PLC and others (2009). I will contend at trial that such charges are unfair in their entirety.

 

4.Notwithstanding the above it is denied should it be alleged that any monies are outstanding having not serviced or acknowledged the account for over 6 years and therefore Statute Barred pursuant to the provisions of section 5 of thelimitation act 1980. If, which is denied, the claimant contends that the Defendant is in breach of the alleged contract, in excess of 6 years have elapsed since the date on which any cause of action for breach accrued for the benefit of the Claimant.

 

5.It is brought to the courts attention that the default date on my Credit Registry Files was filed as 19th January 2009 when in fact as above its should be 11 months earlier or not at all having never received Notice served under 76(1) and 98(1) of the CCA1974 Demand /Recall Notice.Therefore pursuant to the CCA 1974 is unable to seek enforcement or request any relief.

 

6. It is denied that the Claimant has the right to lay a claim due to contraventions of Section 136 of the Law of Property Act and Section 82A of the consumer credit Act 1974. The Claimant has yet to provide a copy of the Notice of Assignment its claim relies upon.

 

7. The claimant is denied from added section 69 interest within the total claimed that as yet to be decided at the courts discretion.

 

8. As per Civil Procedure Rule 16.5(4), it is expected that the Claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed.

 

The claimant is also put to strict proof to:-.

 

(a) Provide a copy agreement/facility arrangement along with the Terms and conditions at inception, that this claim is based on.

(b) Provide a copy of the Notice served under 76(1) and 98(1) of the CCA1974 Demand /Recall Notice and Notice of Assignment.

© Provide a breakdown of their excessive charging/fees levied to the account with justification.

(d) Show how the Claimant has reached the amount claimed.

(e) Show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim.

(f) Show how they have complied with sections III & IV of Practice Direction - Pre-action Conduct.

 

9. On receipt of this claim I requested documentation by way of a CPR 31.14 request dated 02 July 2014 namely the Agreement and Termination Demand Notice referred to in the claimants Particulars of Claim. The Claimant has failed to comply with this request.

 

10.By reason of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any

 

 

Regards

 

Andy

[jimit2017]

Thanks very much. I since actually found one that is similar to my case. Would the following work?

 

The Defendant contends that the particulars of claim are vague and generic in nature. The Defendant accordingly sets out its case below and relies on CPR r 16.5 (3) in relation to any particular allegation to which a specific response has not been made.

 

1. It is denied with regards to the Defendant/s having held an agreed Overdraft Facility in the past, referred to in the Particulars of Claim ( the Contract ) with the original creditor HSBC Bank.

 

2. The defendant denies any liability for any alleged balance but is as a result of unfair and extortionate bank charges/penalties being applied to the account.

 

3. The Defendant denies the claimants claim is owed or payable. The amount claimed is comprised of amongst others default penalties/charges levied on the account for alleged late, missed or over limit payments. The court will be aware that these charge types and the recoverability thereof have been judicially declared to be susceptible to assessments of fairness under the Unfair termsicon in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 The Office of Fair Trading v Abbeyicon National PLC and others (2009). I will contend at trial that such charges are unfair in their entirety.

 

4. It is denied that the Claimant has the right to lay a claim due to contraventions of Section 136 of the Law of Property Act and Section 82A of the consumer crediticon Act 1974. The Claimant has yet to provide a copy of the Notice of Assignment its claim relies upon.

 

5. The claimant is denied from added section 69 interest within the total claimed that as yet to be decided at the courts discretion.

 

6. As per Civil Procedureicon Rule 16.5(4), it is expected that the Claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed.

 

7. On receipt of this claim I requested documentation by way of a CPR 31.14 request dated xxxxxxxx namely the Agreement and Termination Demand Notice referred to in the claimants Particulars of Claim. The Claimant has failed to comply with this request.

 

The claimant is therefore put to strict proof to:-.

 

(a) Provide a copy agreement/facility arrangement along with the Terms and conditions at inception, that this claim is based on.

(b) Provide a copy of the Notice served under 76(1) and 98(1) of the CCA1974 Demand /Recall Notice and Notice of Assignment.

© Provide a breakdown of their excessive charging/fees levied to the account with justification.

(d) Show how the Claimant has reached the amount claimed.

(e) Show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim.

(f) Show how they have complied with sections III & IV of Practice Direction - Pre-action Conduct.

 

 

8.By reason of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief.

[dx100uk]

top one post 22

 

 

again

their poc doesn't mention sec 69..why are you..

[jimit2017]

Particulars of Claim for reference only

 

1.The Claimant claims payment of the overdue balance due from the Defendents under a contract between the Defendants and HSBCicon on or about the Aug 01 2011 and assigned to the Claimant on May 13 2014

PARTICULARS a/c no - 00000000000

 

DATE ITEM VALUE

10/03/17 Default Balance £550.76

Post Refrl Cr Nil

TOTAL : 550.76

 

 

1. I accept that I have in the past held a current account with HSBC. I have not serviced this account since 2011 due to the service charges, punitive charges and interest being applied which made the account untenable and impossible to facilitate. The amount claimed is far in excess of any agreed overdraft limit with HSBC as no agreed overdraft was in place. I deny that the account exceeded an agreed overdraft limit due to overdrawing of funds and claim that this is a result of unfair and extortionate bank charges/penalties being applied to the account. It is therefore denied that I am indebted for any alleged outstanding residue.

 

2. I do not admit to defaulting on payments or ever receiving a Notice served under 76(1) and 98(1) of the CCA1974 Demand /Recall Notice and the Claimant is put to strict proof to evidence any breach.

 

3. I have never been served a Notices of Assignment in accordance with s.136 Law of Property Act 1925.

 

4. As per Civil Procedure Rule 16.5(4), it is expected that the Claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed.

 

The claimant is also put to strict proof to:-.

 

(a) Provide a copy agreement/facility arrangement along with the Terms and conditions at inception, which this claim is based on.

(b) Provide a copy of the Notice served under 76(1) and 98(1) of the CCA1974 Demand /Recall Notice and Notice of Assignment.

© Provide a breakdown of their excessive charging/fees levied to the account with justification.

(d) Show how the Claimant has reached the amount claimed.

(e) Show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim.

(f) Show how they have complied with sections III & IV of Practice Direction - Pre-action Conduct.

 

5. On receipt of this claim I requested documentation by way of a CPR 31.14 request, which was sent recorded delivery on the xxx. The Claimant has failed to comply with this request. Therefore the claimant in their non compliance to my requests have frustrated my attempts to clarify their claim and against pre action protocol should be considered when the question of costs arise.

 

By reason of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief.

Edited June 6, 2017 by jimit2017