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    • p'haps not the best thing to do just use the N244.and the ex160 let them sort it out don't complicate things..   don't worry about the bailiffs there isn't really anything they can do there is no right of forced entry upon consumer debt CCJ enforcement.    
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rupert9bear

Being told i have to do Mandatory training on days off

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Hi,

 

I work a 6 week rotating rota - contract is 37.5 hours a week . Every 15 weeks we are given a "training day" which is 11 hours ( our shifts are 12 hours) . So around 2 1/2 training days a year which we are paid for and are expected to use to cover various mandatory and voluntary courses related to our line of work . It is our responsibility to arrange this training and if you start to owe the company training days e.g. not using them , they can tell you when and what you are doing as you owe them these days as your paid for them !

 

 

Anyways i am a good boy and use my training days as soon as i get them and more to the point i do not owe any training days until 2019 ! (we can carry them over as "credit" )

 

Now we are getting a barrage of emails telling us that we have to do two MANDATORY training days in the next 2 months - i have highlighted to my managers i will obviously attend but only when i am roistered to work , i am being told this is not allowed and that i will have to attend and i can have it as ToiL

 

Before i start getting into a big row with them (getting no replies from union reps ) , am i in the right here or could i be forced to attend these mandatory courses in my own time ?

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Not wanting to be obvious here, but there is only one definition of "mandatory", and the word optional doesn't appear in it!

 

Given the amount of training you are required to do, I am guessing that you are in some type of social /care work? Not that that usually follows, but, perversely, that level of training would be good practice! Not that it's relevant, but your description of the shifts suggests that it is something that is intensive work and requires a specific level of cover. But the answer to that may, in part, enlighten the answer.

 

The simple answer is that there is no "right" here. There's no law on their side, but there's none on yours either. So I'd advise you tread carefully, because the only test of "right" will be the tribunal AFTER you are dismissed for refusing a reasonable instruction of management! And that isn't a place I'd suggest that got go unless you want to leave...

 

I'll be honest - you asked, they told you. Unless you genuinely think they will change their minds, which doesn't sound likely from where I am sitting, then you have to comply. They are not saying that you have to do it in your own time. They are saying they will compensate you for using your own time by giving you time off at another point. Take that to law, and I would expect you to be trounced. And I suspect you would expect it to!

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wake up to reality, we have all been there nothing new get on with it, they are paying you! what do you want a sticker? left those days behind in infant school did you not, job action not suited to you? find a job with meanial work then!


:mad2::-x:jaw::sad:

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Not wanting to be obvious here, but there is only one definition of "mandatory", and the word optional doesn't appear in it!

 

Given the amount of training you are required to do, I am guessing that you are in some type of social /care work? Not that that usually follows, but, perversely, that level of training would be good practice! Not that it's relevant, but your description of the shifts suggests that it is something that is intensive work and requires a specific level of cover. But the answer to that may, in part, enlighten the answer.

 

The simple answer is that there is no "right" here. There's no law on their side, but there's none on yours either. So I'd advise you tread carefully, because the only test of "right" will be the tribunal AFTER you are dismissed for refusing a reasonable instruction of management! And that isn't a place I'd suggest that got go unless you want to leave...

 

I'll be honest - you asked, they told you. Unless you genuinely think they will change their minds, which doesn't sound likely from where I am sitting, then you have to comply. They are not saying that you have to do it in your own time. They are saying they will compensate you for using your own time by giving you time off at another point. Take that to law, and I would expect you to be trounced. And I suspect you would expect it to!

 

I agree with Sangie.

Why? Because of the OP's last paragraph.

 

could i be forced to attend these mandatory courses in my own time ?

 

a) mandatory courses

b) it is no longer "your own time" if they are offering TOIL.

 

The best you can do (if you don't want to risk dismissal) is make your case for when you have to do the training. If you already have other commitments on specific days off, or them asking you to do the training on specific days puts them in breach of the EWTD : make your case for the training to be deferred from those days.

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I agree with Sangie.

Why? Because of the OP's last paragraph.

 

 

 

a) mandatory courses

b) it is no longer "your own time" if they are offering TOIL.

 

The best you can do (if you don't want to risk dismissal) is make your case for when you have to do the training. If you already have other commitments on specific days off, or them asking you to do the training on specific days puts them in breach of the EWTD : make your case for the training to be deferred from those days.

 

thanks for the replies - we have a relief factor built into our rotas which is meant to cover staff for things like this , but suppose ill just have to suck up and do it . Seems a bit of a liberty though that when training days are incorporated into a rota and your contractual hours that even when you have used your training days that they can just label a course "mandatory" and tell you that you have to do it on a day off ..... never mind I can retire in 2 years with a 31 year pension so no big deal :)

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in the past overall attended over 58 courses day/week ones, paid for some in my own time paid for + travel all part of job/knowledge to perform- get on with it.


:mad2::-x:jaw::sad:

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even when you have used your training days that they can just label a course "mandatory" and tell you that you have to do it on a day off

 

I'd agree except:

a) negotiate if you have commitments on that day off, or you'll breach EWTD. Otherwise, since you'll be getting TOIL, it is no longer a day off........

b) If it is public sector / 3rd sector, and they've discovered they are in breach of providing some mandatory training, their regulator or commissioner may be insisting they (rectify the problem or provide a plan to rectify the problem within some timescale). If they don't, they may lose the contract / lose their registration.

So I agree it is inconvenient for you, but you are getting TOIL, and they may have an over-riding pressure to fix a training issue to protect your and your co-workers jobs .....

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I'd agree except:

a) negotiate if you have commitments on that day off, or you'll breach EWTD. Otherwise, since you'll be getting TOIL, it is no longer a day off........

b) If it is public sector / 3rd sector, and they've discovered they are in breach of providing some mandatory training, their regulator or commissioner may be insisting they (rectify the problem or provide a plan to rectify the problem within some timescale). If they don't, they may lose the contract / lose their registration.

So I agree it is inconvenient for you, but you are getting TOIL, and they may have an over-riding pressure to fix a training issue to protect your and your co-workers jobs .....

 

So I went and had a chat with our senior HR person who was a bit concerned to hear that staff were being told they had to do "mandatory" courses on days off , especially when they had fulfilled there contractual hours/ training commitment (at a CQC inspection we were slated for a "bullying culture" by managers ) So end result , I obviously have to do the courses but it will be done in work time when I am on shift :)

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Ok , time to own up

 

Have been a union rep for many years and won more cases than i have lost - also just got my diploma in employment law

 

Used to use this forum as a good source of advice - twice i have use fictitious problems as "test cases" to see what advice people of here would have given , both times i have received totally the wrong and often patronizing advice about cases i have won in the work place - i used to tell my colleagues to use this forum as a good source of advice , no longer

 

anyways , good luck all and whatever ....

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Hi rupert9bear

 

As a Union Rep would you not have checked our Forum Rules: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?9-FORUM-RULES-Please-read-these-before-posting(2-Viewing)-nbsp

 

We are a Self-Help Forum and it is entirely up to you whether you take the advice give or not. (it is your decision not ours)

 

The Caggers on this Forum freely give up there own valuable time voluntary to assist on this forum.

 

You had 2 fictitious test cases but you had already won these cases and used these as a test cases on the forum, could you please provide links to these specific cases?


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Ok , time to own up

 

Have been a union rep for many years and won more cases than i have lost - also just got my diploma in employment law

 

Used to use this forum as a good source of advice - twice i have use fictitious problems as "test cases" to see what advice people of here would have given , both times i have received totally the wrong and often patronizing advice about cases i have won in the work place - i used to tell my colleagues to use this forum as a good source of advice , no longer

 

anyways , good luck all and whatever ....

You received no incorrect advice, and for someone who claims to have a (low level) qualification in law, you know nothing about the law.

 

In this fictitious case, no law has been broken at any time by the employer. You were told that no law had been broken. Your question was "are you in the right", and no you were not; and "can you be forced to attend mandatory training in your own time" - it was not your own time, and the answer is yes, for the reasons outlined. You were told, in each case, that there was no law on this matter (and there isn't), and that unless you can make a case to the employer to change their mind, there would be nothing you could do. This is still true. The fact that you have demonstrated yourself to be lying, and wasting people's time, doesn't change that.

 

I sincerely hope that you aren't a rep for my union - we discourage our reps from making promises they can't keep (like saying something can be won when there is no evidence it can), to know the difference between a legal case and an internal dispute, and to be honest.

 

whatever.... You won't be missed, chuck.

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got a diploma? - seen that before can do theory but fail in practice another story, "bit of paper reminds me of "Peace in our time" ?? say no more

 

 

Union rep - well so have I and many others, but what we never did was waste peoples valuable time with theory!s when genuine people with genuine problems need real help, pity the union you belong to which is/// ???

 

you say you won many cases care to enlighten the substance of that remark?


:mad2::-x:jaw::sad:

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You received no incorrect advice, and for someone who claims to have a (low level) qualification in law, you know nothing about the law.

 

In this fictitious case, no law has been broken at any time by the employer. You were told that no law had been broken. Your question was "are you in the right", and no you were not; and "can you be forced to attend mandatory training in your own time" - it was not your own time, and the answer is yes, for the reasons outlined. You were told, in each case, that there was no law on this matter (and there isn't), and that unless you can make a case to the employer to change their mind, there would be nothing you could do. This is still true. The fact that you have demonstrated yourself to be lying, and wasting people's time, doesn't change that.

 

I sincerely hope that you aren't a rep for my union - we discourage our reps from making promises they can't keep (like saying something can be won when there is no evidence it can), to know the difference between a legal case and an internal dispute, and to be honest.

 

whatever.... You won't be missed, chuck.

 

 

Hear hear


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got a diploma? - seen that before can do theory but fail in practice another story, "bit of paper reminds me of "Peace in our time" ?? say no more

 

 

Union rep - well so have I and many others, but what we never did was waste peoples valuable time with theory!s when genuine people with genuine problems need real help, pity the union you belong to which is/// ???

 

you say you won many cases care to enlighten the substance of that remark?

 

 

no doubt the won cases were when companies ceased prior to tribunal? as happens a lot as to save cost. not a win for you if the cases in question just a commercial decision, different to actual appearing to tribunals etc


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style="text-align:center;"> Please note that this topic has not had any new posts for the last 904 days.

If you are trying to post a different story then you should start your own new thread. Posting on this thread is likely to mean that you won't get the help and advice that you need.

If you are trying to post information which is relevant to the story in this thread then please flag it up to the site team and they will allow you to post.

Thank you
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