Jump to content


incrediblesulk

Employer wants to meet to discuss absence regarding depression they caused.

style="text-align:center;"> Please note that this topic has not had any new posts for the last 476 days.

If you are trying to post a different story then you should start your own new thread. Posting on this thread is likely to mean that you won't get the help and advice that you need.

If you are trying to post information which is relevant to the story in this thread then please flag it up to the site team and they will allow you to post.

Thank you

Recommended Posts

Before you all get into a bun-fight, I would like to say I appreciate the advice I've received. I have no problem with any of the views that have been expressed so please don't fall out on my behalf.

 

I completely understand the employer could sack on the grounds of incapability, but what we are trying to do now is ask them to move her to a different job within her place of work. I understand this is not ideal but tbh the job has given her pretty bad depression, she's now on 45mg ant-depressants (was 15mg). She has broke her ass trying to get another job and just doesn't even seem to get a reply; in about 40 jobs she's gone for she's had one interview but the job wasn't for 30 hours as advertised, it was 18.

 

As far as losing the house is concerned, housing benefit would never cover our rent, the maximum they pay for a couple is £96 a week and ours is more like £165 a week.

 

I would never leave her, that was anger, sorry!

 

I appreciate all of your honesty and hold no malice against anyone on what is a fantastic forum.

 

To update anyone who might be following this - we've had a meeting with her employer who came to our house, talked to OH and are now on the second round of that. OH is calling on Monday and my partner will then explain her tablets have been upped and, given the one month the Dr reckons will take for the higher does to take effect, she'd be happy to go back to work if she can be moved. (Obviously that last part could cause contention).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I knew you weren't leaving - you just needed to hear the other version of where your head was!

It's easy to get trapped in a thought and end up doing something entirely foolish.

 

Can you please explain what the end of the "first" bit of this process looks like?

They manager came, she spoke to OH and ... what?

What was the decision?

Or what was said?

Have OH made any recommendations?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Sanjie.

Ok, the manager came, talked to my partner and took some notes, then OH called a few days later and my partner talked with them. OH sent a letter to her manager (and a copy to her) saying she is depressed and can't work, and that they'd phone her back in a month (which will be this Tuesday coming). Her manager has also made an appointment to see her (in our home again).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok. So that was less dire than you expected.

Just be aware that this won't stay so laid back for ever, and the longer it goes on, the more likely they are to start capability processes.

 

So neither of you can afford to be complacent, although I'm sure that you won't be.

The problem she faces is being trapped in a cycle.

 

The longer she is off work, the harder it is to face returning; and her sickness record may get in the way of getting another job too.

She doesn't want what she is going through at the moment to become "who she is".

 

Do you have any thoughts on a way to break the deadlock, before the employer does?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

She wants to be moved to a different part of the building. She was happy when she worked in the gym but they moved her because she couldn't start at 6am (no bus). I told her she should tell them about the bullying and inconsideration that goes on with her supervisor but she's adamant if she spoke up they'd drive her out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Get your objective head on. Remember?

There is no requirement at all for an employer to be considerate.

And if she can't start when the work starts, that also isn't the employers problem.

 

If the start time can be varied, then that's all well and good, but if it can't then what she wants isn't going to happen.

So focus on asking for a move, but be as flexible as she can on where that is to.

 

The more she limits her options, the less likely they are to be able to support her move.

And if she wants to move, she's going to need to be able to tell them that she is coming back to work - if not immediately, certainly in the short term.

 

They aren't going to be up for arranging new work locations of it is not even certain she's coming back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They came a few days ago and were overjoyed that we presented them with a few options - one of which was for my Mrs to start at 6am thereby making it easier (and avoiding the Supervisors monaing) to get her job done before staff come in and wont let her clean their offices.

At the moment she's got the Dr experimenting with pills that will help her depression and let her sleep. She's on 45mg right now and if they don't knock her out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Excellent.

You see how much easier it is if you can provide solutions and not problems?

 

Hopefully this will also help her to overcome the worries she has too, or at least allay her fears.

Because she still does need to focus on getting back in a timely manner.

 

They are not likely to wait for ever.

So that needs to be your next thought - how does she get back?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If your wife is depressed the best thing you can do is look at how to help her in that area, forget employment and issues at work, if you were to discuss relevant issues with her whist she was under the control of depression your help would be counter productive, look at the bars below my muscle chiselled avatar, my kung fu in employment issues is strong, my experience with depression of your other half is bigger ;) !

 

She will never fix her work issues until she fixes the depression

 

As far as this being a trolling thread from a neutral poster's perspective (who's been away for a while) --- [austin powers voice] oh behave :|

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to update, my partner went back to work last week. They've moved her to another area and she seems happier. She still has the same Supervisor and feels that the recriminations will start soon but, touch wood, all is ok so far.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's great news. Tell her not to look for trouble where there isn't any though. She'll not help her state of mind if she's looking over her shoulder all the time. If the manager has a problem, then it'll happen without her worrying about it. But equally, they may not. You don't know what else may have been said to the manager. Just stick her head down, do her job, and leave it at that. Might be time to think about a union though!

 

Good thing you didn't move out - just think of all the hassle you have avoided with the boxes :oops: It all seems pretty silly now, doesn't it?

 

Good luck and I hope things work out better in the future.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My Mrs works for a large Cleaning company. She's worked there for 11 years. She did 9 years in a different section and was transferred to the section she's in after her old Supervisor seemed to have it in for her.

 

Whenever she is ill or has holiday leave she goes back to find they've checked her work, found something and put her on an action plan to rectify it within two weeks. She breaks her back doing the work but still gets a 'PIP' warning, 3 of them and she's out the door.

They never check her work when she's there; it seems like blackmail to not be ill or have agreed, planned holiday leave.

They do it to all of their staff.

 

Last year she went through a hard time and ended up having 4 months off with depression.

Her boss and her Supervisor visited us 3 weeks into it and asked questions.

 

When she went back she was told to sign a new contract (same job) and had to fill in a medical form in which she told them she had depression and epilepsy (she hasn't had a fit for years nor does she take medication for epilepsy).

 

10 months after that brings us to the present day.

Last week she had a cold; knowing they were desperate for staff (I wonder why), she went in anyway and was allowed to go home after a couple of hours.

 

 

The third and fourth day she felt worse and rang in ill. Lo and behold they checked her work and found something wrong (dust on something she was never told to clean).

They put her on an action plan in view of giving her a PIP-1.

They'll review her work next week.

 

But in the meantime they gave her a 'Medical Consent Form' which basically grants them permission to see her medical record.

It seems that they are trying to get her out for mental health reasons.

 

With so much hype around mental health and how we should all talk to people and let our employer know, I find this a bit of a low way to push someone out of the door.

 

She joined a Union but they've not been any good, giving basic, obvious, advice like "ask them why they want to see your medical record" and agreeing they do seem to be trying to sack her via a PIP-3 or medical grounds but saying the Union can do nothing about it as it's all above board.

If she loses her job we lose the house.

 

The company has a long list of people they've pushed out the door for PIP-3 / health reasons. Apparently the Supervisor has had 26 grievances against her and none have amounted to anything.

 

Any advice received with thanks.

Edited by incrediblesulk
spelling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi. I recall your previous thread vividly, and I'm afraid it isn't the union that is no good - it's the legal position that is no good.

They are correct - there is nothing obviously untoward here, legally speaking.

 

An employer is permitted to have a sickness absences policy

- they have one and they are adhering to it, as they did last year.

 

Having a disability does not prevent them from doing that, nor from dismissing people on either capacity or performance grounds.

Performance standards are not really a concern of employment tribunals.

They would not easily come to a position of imposing their own views where hadan employer said that performance is not satisfactory.

 

Broadly speaking, it is assumed that employers do not dispense with good employees who are performing well, so there would be a high bar to reach to prove that the reason for a performance plan/ dismissal was based on any other grounds

- you'd need some very solid evidence, and it doesn't seem that you have that.

 

Equally, provided there is a clear policy, dismissal on the grounds of sickness record is not unlawful, and provided they act reasonably IN THE EYES OF THE LAW then they can do that too.

 

So they must have a clear policy, they must follow that policy, and where appropriate they may have to make some reasonable adjustments.

But that's it - and I recall telling you how weak the "protections" really are last year.

 

So I'm afraid that there isn't a lot to advise you on, because you obviously want an answer that says they can't dismiss her.

And I'm afraid that they can.

 

If they go down a performance route, no matter how "convenient" that may appear in your eyes, that isn't proof of anything except her performance not reaching the employers standards.

 

From the employers point of view it's certainly a safer route than health related dismissals

- but even that isn't a necessary protection because the law permits an employer to dismiss for absences.

 

Even where a disability is the cause of some or all of the absence.

 

I think we advised that she consider looking for other employment last year - had she done so. If not, in all honesty, she needs to look right now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why would she want to work for a company that backstabs her when she I not there?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for mentioning the previous thread, Sangie. :)

 

Threads merged for history.

 

HB


Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry I couldn't reply earlier but my PC died and I had to wait to get a new one and set up an new (lost) password for the forum.

 

@sgtbush Jobs are not easy to come by; she has applied for many in order to get out of the dump but no luck so far.

 

@Sangie595 Thanks for the advice. It just goes to show that all the stuff they say on TV about understanding mental illness and how you should explain yours to your employer is utter crap. Those who DO tell their employer about mental illness (or suffer with one) are kicked out. Perhaps someone should tell Prince Harry that before he wastes more time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If she loses her job we lose the house.

 

 

Not the advice you asked for but that is a hell of a lot of responsibility to put on one woman with a cleaning job.

 

 

Would her mental state be better without that pressure, if you rented?


Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is the company doing regarding their Duty to make Reasonable Adjustment I see a person in difficulty and the company not providing support or assistance They have a Duty under the Equality Act 2010 to make Reasonable Adjustment They have a Duty of Care towards her irrespective

 

How long has she been there?

 

I honestly think she should be asking her employers tough questions

Edited by honeybee13
Paras

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ha ha ha, sorry but what you read in the papers and what happens in real life are two separate things. Her Union said there's nothing they can do so obviously there are no real "rights" in this situation. Best advice for future people: If you have mental health issues keep your mouth shut and try to blag it through.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ha ha ha, sorry but what you read in the papers and what happens in real life are two separate things. Her Union said there's nothing they can do so obviously there are no real "rights" in this situation. Best advice for future people: If you have mental health issues keep your mouth shut and try to blag it through.

 

I would strongly advise that you do not listen to the advice from dondada. They are wildly keen to quote laws that do not do what they claim they do, and case law that doesn't apply. There is a vast differences between a duty to CONSIDER reasonable adjustments and an obligation to provide them. A difference which the poster appears to not understand. And since this is not about reasonable adjustments but performance, a somewhat irrelevant comment. It's easy to claim to be some sort of expert on a subject you know little about, because you don't have to live with the consequences of other people following your advice. You are right to be cautious and to recognise that the real world doesn't operate like a Google law search! The only reason I'm posting a response is because I've seen too many people here being drawn into unrealistic expectations by this poster, and you have had enough problems over the past year without falling for amateur lawyer hour here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ha ha ha, sorry but what you read in the papers and what happens in real life are two separate things. Her Union said there's nothing they can do so obviously there are no real "rights" in this situation. Best advice for future people: If you have mental health issues keep your mouth shut and try to blag it through.

 

 

I don't know what real life you are talking about

 

The Tribunal has found against companies that fail to make Reasonable Adjustment

 

Here are a few cases

 

No 3 seems to apply to your case

 

 

http://www.xperthr.co.uk/legal-guidance/duty-to-make-reasonable-adjustments-five-tips-from-case-law/161706/

 

 

Finally, you don't have to listen to me

 

I get my position from case laws and the Equality Act

 

I don't know where others gets theirs

 

If you are truly interested in justice, you could research the relevant case laws and regulations

 

I only point people to the case law that pertains to their case

 

I wouldn't force you to go to court

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What is the company doing regarding their Duty to make Reasonable Adjustment I see a person in difficulty and the company not providing support or assistance They have a Duty under the Equality Act 2010 to make Reasonable Adjustment They have a Duty of Care towards her irrespective

 

How long has she been there?

 

I honestly think she should be asking her employers tough questions

 

 

By the way, section 20 of the Equality Act 2010 is quite clear

 

It is a Duty to MAKE adjustment

 

It is NOT a duty to CONSIDER adjustment

 

Read it for yourself

 

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/20

 

Like I said earlier, I get my position from case law and the regulations

 

You really don't have to listen to me

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
By the way, section 20 of the Equality Act 2010 is quite clear

 

It is a Duty to MAKE adjustment

 

It is NOT a duty to CONSIDER adjustment

 

 

Remembering the word "reasonable" which is of course subjective.

 

The OPs current problem is performance, not disability, related. Do you have advice related to that?

 

For example, his spouse could ask for a copy of the checklist or training guide covering standards to be sure they were adhered to in future.


Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Remembering the word "reasonable" which is of course subjective.

 

The OPs current problem is performance, not disability, related. Do you have advice related to that?

 

For example, his spouse could ask for a copy of the checklist or training guide covering standards to be sure they were adhered to in future.

 

 

Has Reasonable Adjustment been made to deal with the Disability?

 

Is her (poor) performance due to her mental health (disability)?

 

Has that been sorted out?

 

Has the employer evaluated all options and concluded that the Disability has NO bearing whatsoever on her Capability?

 

These are tough questions she should be asking the employer

 

See South Staffordshire & Shropshire Healthcare NHS Foundation Trust v Billingsley

 

I prefer the OP to research the case law themselves and see if it applies to their case

 

I believe he is intelligent and wise enough

 

It is easy to come on a Forum and get sympathy votes

 

It is another to get pointers

 

Like I always say, I don't force people to take actions

 

They alone have bills to pay at the end of the day

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Below is another blog's comment on the same case https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=760b8a52-c402-44e7-b99e-10dabb3cb409

 

The comments are italicized and key statement highlighted

 

 

Eventually the recommended technical aids were provided and she received 20 hours of specialist tuition. However, following continued monitoring of her performance, the employers decided to dismiss her on capability grounds.

 

The Employment Tribunal decided that the employers had failed to make two reasonable adjustments: first, providing technical aids in good time, and in any event well before the monitoring of the claimant’s performance began; and secondly, providing all the specialist tuition recommended. The employers did too little too late – there was a chance that had the adjustments been made the claimant would have avoided the unfavourable treatment of performance review and dismissal.

 

The EAT upheld the decision.

 

So it goes back to my earlier question

 

Has Reasonable Adjustment been made?

 

Is it adequate or more should be done?

 

These are questions to be asked and answered before one can say there is no case

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
style="text-align:center;"> Please note that this topic has not had any new posts for the last 476 days.

If you are trying to post a different story then you should start your own new thread. Posting on this thread is likely to mean that you won't get the help and advice that you need.

If you are trying to post information which is relevant to the story in this thread then please flag it up to the site team and they will allow you to post.

Thank you
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    No registered users viewing this page.


  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...