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    • Amex as with any creditor must help you the FOS should go with you and make them remove all interest charged from the very 1st time of asking for help. the FCA regulations actually almost dictate it, they most certainly clearly state that if the are FCA registered they must help.   it's very telling they have no marked your credit file....almost as if they know they are wrong. it's also telling that an irresponsible lending complaint might well be in order hear too, they can just keep upping the credit limit without checking you can pay. and ofcourse covid plays its part here and they've already admitted as they allowed payments holidays until october in line with the rest of the industry and they should be continuing that. you problem is you keep using the phone, no paperwork no record of things discussed. i'd get an SAR off to them. and get the comms/account log and all the statements from day one and go nail them.
    • Hello CAG, Bit of a long post, may want to get a cuppa before starting reading... 😁   after being a lurker for many years and trying never to get into a mess with credit cards like i did 20 years ago, i've got myself into a mess with Amex... I've tried being open and honest with them, but now getting the feeling they are messing me around.    Its not a chargecard, but a Nectar Credit Card with them. TAKEN out 2016. Balance is just under £15k as of today, was almost at £17k.  Debt still owed by Amex, not been sent to NCO/Arrow etc - YET...    Background (short version): Was all fine with more than min. payment (£500 or so), being made until April 2020 when a number of things reduced my monthly salary from work (mainly, take a pay cut or be made redundant), so I soon quickly realised i needed to tighten my belt quickly. Phoned Amex, advisor said nothing they could do except Payment Holiday. Was put onto that for 3 months, told that Amex will be in touch at the end to restart payments. I asked about interest being stopped/frozen/reduced - not possible. So agreed to payment holiday to give me breathing space. 3 months came and went, no contact from Amex... No payments made, interest still racking up at around £300 a month...    Rang Amex back (July 2020), we cant do anything today because your in the middle of the statement cycle call back next week. Called back week after, no solution yet (i asked about things i seen on Amex US website = Regain program - basically freeze card, lower interest rate and pay a set amount for 12 months - more about this later) > Not available in UK yet.   Want to stay on payment holiday Mister B? I asked if there was any way interest could be stopped as this is making the balance increase and increase. No. Do you want to stay on Payment Holiday? Ok. (Bear in mind, if i came off Payment holiday. Minimum Payment was around £570 per month.  So, stayed on payment holiday... Didnt hear anything from Amex again. Called back up in September 2020. Please call back in October after 10th and we can assist.   Called back after October 10, went through loads of stuff, different options etc, was warned that Payment Holiday might not be extended much longer, but now have a program. Worked out with Amex woman that i could pay around £200 per month. But please stop interest - no we cant but we can reduce this down to 9.9APR instead of 23%... . Amex woman said she needed to submit details to 'Seniors' at Amex, please call back next week for update.   Called back week after, advised that first Amex woman was wrong and had made mistakes, shouldn't have told me what she had told me, £200 is too low, minimum would be £389 per month for 12 months or account will default. Told Amex woman 2 that couldn't afford it, went through this last time, etc etc. Amex woman 2 went off, came back, £329.74 is minimum they can possibly accept, 12 months at that amount per month and interest would be lowered, but not stopped. If you dont take out this 'Program' then account will default and will be passed to NCO or Arrow (I hate them both).  Went off, tried to get loans etc, all refused. Rang Amex back, reluctantly agreed so i can keep credit rating at 'good'.  So, been paying since Nov 2021 @ £329.74.    Letter arrived in December - due to out mess up with moving accounts around whilst on payment holiday, we are going to give you £3074 back. Logged into account, only £30.74 refunded, not £3074. Phoned Amex cos thought it was a joke/mistake - Spoke to some bloke - Oh dont worry, the rest will be applied to account automatically in 7 days. he advised was genuine but then got cut off during call. Called back, spoke to some other bloke, yes, looks genuine but please hold... Came back 10 minutes later. Oh, its a mis-print, you are not the only customer to receive one of these. Each should have been £30.74 not £3074. Me = Gutted.    Wrote a letter to Amex saying how dissatisfied i was with general customer service and felt they were incompetent, blah blah etc. Final response received, Complaint partially upheld, heres £150 credit because we were a bit silly, but thats it. IF your still not happy, go to FOS. Opened a case with FOS... Have sent them the complaint letter to them and have had a call from them about this... FOS are backlogged though and will take another 3 months for complaint to be looked at by them.   Let me make this 100% clear, fully admit to owning the debt, yep, ive spent this money (wish I knew what on, cos having got much to show from it - just general stuff and holidays)... Not trying to shirk out of it, trying my best to keep up with re-payments but im really struggling. After I got paid on 1st April, after paying all outgoings i had £9.83 left in current account so am having to go into overdraft each month which is just a vicious circle.  I would really like to NOT have to down the default route and trash my credit rating and then have to deal with the morons at NCO / Arrow etc.    Meanwhile, this is where I need the advice of the CAG experts... - Credit Limit increases... These were coming every few months and it was just being upped and upped and upped. Credit limit eventually was stopped at £15,400. Some of the increases I never even received letter for, just noticed when I logged into account. >>>> Would this be a case for irresponsible lending?   - Stopping interest - I've read something on FCA site that they recommend (not policy) that if a customer is put onto a payment holiday then they recommend freezing interest for customer so the debt doesn't continue to build. I've asked time and time again, Amex just refuse.  >>>> Any tips on how to get Amex to play ball?    - Full & Final/Short settlement I've rung Amex today, told them I might be able to pay it off. Initially they said full balance, i then pushed, they then said they would accept 80% of balance, pushed them a bit more, got it down to 70%. >>> Surprised, and then very surprised they would accept 70%, anyone else think this is a bit odd? Normally they wont budge, or they wont budge from their first offer... Could their be something wrong on account (missing CCA etc?), or do they want rid of me and account as much as I do with them?   - Cant really keep going at these £329.74 repayments. Something is going to have to give somewhere. I believe they wont go any lower and they will just default it i send £100 instead of £329 and send it out to NCO/Arrow. This might not be a too bad thing though because this would stop the interest right? Anyone thoughts on this?    Anyone think of anything else I could try with them? Again, its still with Amex, not defaulted or anything yet, yep, its all my own fault, i've spent the money, dont deny that, just feel Amex have took advantage etc.   Many thanks for reading. Any advice is greatly appreciated.   Kr, Mista B.     
    • Ok so we have complained to HMRC but were still no further forward with getting the P45/P60. We need this as DVLA has said they need more proof of who he is before giving him a provisional license.  What more can l do. 
    • Hi All   just looking for some advice. I bought a used Porsche Boxster from one of Marshall motor group’s Audi dealers (can I name them?) recently and was assured that it received a major service in October 2020 in line with the manufacturers requirements. The service book confirms this. The dealer also told me on the phone that they have a 6 month rule with any mot or service being done if due within this period which assured me when making an offer over the phone on the car that it wouldn’t need anything doing for a while as I recall saying that.   However, digging through the receipts post delivery I saw that the service was in fact minor and after calling the specialist who serviced it in Oct both they (Sheepishly) and the invoice confirmed that the car did not receive new spark plugs, an air filter, brake fluid replacement or a new fan belt which have now all fallen due and hence the major service due warning light. Had I not investigated this then the car would have potentially gone another 4 years, so 8 in total without some of these items being done.   i emailed the salesman to ask what they would propose to do. The matter is complicated by my living 450 miles away in Scotland, and 200 from their nearest branch, a Mercedes dealer in the Lake District, so I suggested getting my cheapest local specialist to do the works that have fallen due, however I have received no response.   Whilst I am still within my 30 days i don’t want to reject the car, which is otherwise perfect, but the fact remains that the Audi 150 point check only asks for upcoming mot’s to be checked and not services and surely you wouldn’t buy an approved used car and expect to have the service light come on 2 weeks later and have to spend almost £500 putting it right.   i would really appreciate some advice on next steps and perhaps who to escalate this to. Meantime the car is booked in for 2 weeks time to get the work done at the cheapest reputable place I could find.   Many, many thanks in advance
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Employer wants to meet to discuss absence regarding depression they caused.


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Thank you for your time and advice.

We're looking for some general advice on this issue regarding my partner who is off work with depression caused by her workplace. The employer has told us they will visit this Thursday to "discuss her absence".

 

Here's a bit of the back story:

 

Mt partner is a Cleaner. She is off work due to depression, this was caused by her undergoing treatment for recurring miscarriages and her Manager moving her from a job she was happy in to another part of the company where it is very quiet, no interaction and a totally different world than where she had been.

My partner asked to be moved back but was told it is not possible. She thinks she was only moved because her Manager had to cover 6am to 7am as she couldn't get into work for 6am. Funnily enough, the person who took my partner's old position starts at 6am (!)

 

 

Events and Mismanagement that has led to my partner's Depression:

 

1. She was late for work twice when the buses here were effected by a huge amount of roadworks (which was front page news). Her bus simply didn't turn up two days in a row and she had to wait for an alternative bus (the following days she caught a taxi rather than lose her job). Both times she rang the Manager and let her know.

All seemed okay until over 2 weeks later when her Manager issued her with a stage 2 warning for absence (not even a 'late'!). Luckily I was able to speak directly with the city bus manager who kindly emailed a letter explaining the missing buses and her Manager took the warning off her record. It was like a letter from Mummy for not having a PE Kit!

 

2. A few days later (revenge?). My partner received a printed warning document detailing things that would need to be improved in her cleaning duties. These included a set of stairs that experience 24-hour high traffic from hundreds of staff which she was warned were dusty and dirty.

She was told another inspection of her work would take place on 4th April and if it wasn't satisfactory a PIP Procedure (warnings that can lead to dismissal) would be put in place..skipping the written warnings stages completely!

Two weeks later she had the Thursday 23rd and Friday 24th March 2017 off as holiday. My partner went back on Monday 27th March 2017 and was called her into her Manager's office and told that the showers had body-fat in them, even though she had worked hard to make everything A1 before her days off. Her Manager then said "Just because you signed that warning, doesn't mean you can F?cKing slack off anywhere else!" (Bullying?).

 

3. Two days later (29th March 2017), My partner had a small operation to investigate the fibroids the hospital believe have caused her recurring miscarriages. She was not allowed this as unpaid leave and had to work before going to the hospital. She had to go work the day after the operation too.

On the day after the operation she was taken home by the people she cleaned for in FOST and they phoned my partner's Manager to complain; which no doubt will be mentioned in the absence meeting and my partner blamed for it!

Anyway, that date was 30th March which was the last day she worked and has been off with depression since.

 

4. On 24th April we received the letter saying they'll be coming to our home on 4th May 2017 to discuss her "illness, current health status, long term diagnosis, current abilities and when you might be fit to return to work. And also to gain authorisation to contact your GP for a medical report."

 

-

 

We appreciate any advice you can give and for reading this long post.

  • If you can advise on what we should do at the 'Meeting to Discuss Absence' and whether we should print off this post and discuss it or if that would probably mean them finding an excuse to get rid of my partner?
  • She has had depression all the time she's worked there (10 years) and never had long-term sick so could they sack her for depression knowing she has it anyway (last year she had a miscarriage and went sick with depression)
  • Would she have the right to be asked to be moved and, if so, would they have to move her to a post that has the same hours/amount of hours?
  • Staff who have complained in the past have always ended up sacked
  • Finally, their letter says she can have a member of staff/Union Rep (unfortunately not in a union) at the meeting but I intend to be their. It is our home so can they say I can't be there?
  • We will also be recording the meeting, as it is our home do we legally have to tell them so?

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There is already far too much information on this post that identifies the employer and individuals- if the employers get hold of it then they can use it to dismiss on the grounds of bringing the employer into disrepute. One of the moderators needs to anonymise it, please; and no you absolutely do not show the employer the thread!

 

They can dismiss for sickness absence, regardless of the reason for the sickness. Not immediately, no, but if they follow a legally correct prices and she does not return to work, then yes, she can be issued.

 

She has no right to be moved. She can ask, but they are not obliged to agree, and they do not have to protect her hours or the amount she works. She asks for another role, and she had to take what is offered, or not move.

 

I can't comment on cases I know nothing about.

 

No you have no right to be there. Yes, you can insist since it is your home - and they can insist that she attend a meeting at their offices instead. You may ask to be there as a reasonable adjustment because of her mental health problems.

 

You have no right to covertly record something just because it is your home. You may record something provided you do not share it with anyone else, and only for your own use. If you do otherwise, she faces dismissal for making a covert recording - loss of trust and confidence would probably be the grounds.

 

It must be the week for it because this is about the sixth time I've said it this week.

Proving that an employer is responsible for work related mental injury is exceptionally difficult.

They don't seem to be a particularly nice bunch of people to work for, but that doesn't mean that they have done much that is legally wrong here.

 

It is an employees responsibility to attend work at the right time

- there is no reason why an employer must accept any excuse, good or not, for lateness.

However they did take the warning back - they didn't need to.

 

It is equally difficult to dispute an employers judgement on performance

- in law the employer is permitted to run their business as they wish and to set whatever standards they desire.

 

There is a presumption that employers do not unreasonably set those standards, and it is almost impossible to overturn any dismissal based on performance.

An employment tribunal will not replace the employers judgement on performance with their own.

And I am afraid that there is no right to either paid or unpaid time off work.

 

That only leaves swearing at her.

It shouldn't have happened, no. But it isn't enough to construct a case of bullying.

 

As I said, they sound an unpleasant bunch, but honestly, there isn't a lot to base any legal care on.

They appear to be able to stay inside the the law - unfortunately it isn't that hard.

 

What do you think being moved to another position will achieve for her?

And if they refused such a request, what is your position - what do you want to happen?

And if they refuse anything, what is your next step, do you think?

 

Ps I have messaged the site to ask that they edit your post to take out details.

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Ps I have messaged the site to ask that they edit your post to take out details.

 

Thank you for the report, Sangie. :) I think I've anonymised everything.

 

HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Thanks Honeybee. I suggest that you take out the word at the end of the sentence "Mt partner is a Cleaner working in the ...." There aren't a lot of those sorts of places!

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Sorry for the editing you had to do; I'll be more confidential in the future.

 

In reply to Sangie595's post (thanks), I feel that if she were moved to another part of the workplace her depression would improve; if they refuse to move her then I honestly can't see any favourable outcome. They'll probably just find an excuse to sack her anyway as that seems to be the way they work. It's shocking how little rights employess have, and how companies like this seem to always have the most rights; for instance take a look at this article where the employee swore once and got sacked, yet you say her boss can get away with it! Interesting, but these solicitors say it could be a case for constructive dismissal. Still, I guess it only works when the big mouth is the employee not the boss.

 

I'll post again once they've been.

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Unfortunately, you are not wrong. Although, beginning utterly objective about it, if she wasn't able to do the hours required in the previous role, that is reasonable grounds for moving her to one where the hours suit her better. I know you said the manager didn't like it because they had to do the other hour. But really, that isn't unreasonable. And that is the rational that the employer will use. Employers can often be reasonably unreasonable!. It's an art form!

 

Let's see what they say. If they agree then you have a solution. If they don't, let's see if we can examine options. I wouldn't want to see her being sicker over this, and I'm sure you don't either. And that means something had to happen, and the options at least gives you a playing field to explore.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Ok, just to update you all, her supervisor and one other came to our house and talked a bit. They then got my partner to sign a form consenting the company to contact her Dr for her records. She saw her Dr yesterday who said he has refused to show them her records. I think this is a bad idea as the company will now have their own Dr examine her, my suspicions are that their own Dr will be biased.

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Hello there.

 

Others have more experience than I do, but doctors' reports about me to HR or occupational health were excerpts from my records as my GP or consultant saw fit. I'm surprised that they expected all the records to be released.

 

Does the GP think s/he could write a letter to the company to explain the position?

 

HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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your partner can ask to see the occ health report before it goes in.

Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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I'm guessing they requested all her records in hope of finding some way to get rid of her which they have a record of doing to their staff when they go sick.

My partner is looking for another job now but, despite what the government tell us, can only find a 15 hour job, anything less than 30 hours and we lose our Tax Credits = lose our home.

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medical condition and problems completing task at work then a company can look to see if fit for purpose i.e the job in question?> if the condition agrevates the ability to complete task then it calls into question suitability and safety regards that person olso liability to the said company = comes to mind? and an alternative job sought! as stated! seen it so often over the decades,

 

my O.H. has been on the computer and god knows how many applications made in the last 3 yeas and still no responses, job centre offered her £1.45 per week sign on as she had 6 months of the original benefit but she would have to sign on 2 times a week bus fare £2.45 per day adds up does it Nottttttttttttttttt? she paid her stamps as well.

 

 

a very difficult situation on both people to be in!

:mad2::-x:jaw::sad:
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Hopefully someone is still reading this. I am worried.

She got a letter today saying that OH will phone her 2nd June to chat and write their report. It's a "Mr" phoning her, not a "Dr" so I have the suspicion it will be more a case of them looking to get rid of her. If so, we lose our house; we're just about managing now she's on the sick and if she gets sacked we're fkd.

:(

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I really wish that I could say that there is nothing to worry about.

But I'm not going to lie to you.

 

It doesn't matter who writes the report (and I'll come back to that)

- she has now been off sick for two months, and it is very likely that the employer, even if they are not yet there, will be starting to consider the long term prospects and whether they should dismiss or not.

 

Occupational health is often not a doctor, but a medical professional

- quite a few are specialists with qualifications in occupational health.

 

For good reason

- most ordinary medical professionals are lousy at employment!

 

They are trained in medicine, not employment.

Occupational health specialists are trained in both.

 

They give the employer an independent opinion as to the medical situation of someone, their prospects of returning to work, and whether any adjustments can be made to facilitate that return.

 

However, whatever they say is not binding on the employer.

They don't tell the employer what to do, and the employer can ignore the entire report if they wish to.

 

In mental health situations, a conversation may be enough for them to review the situation based on the doctors notes.

They obviously believe that is the case here, and I can see why.

It is relatively straightforward.

 

They are likely to ask whether she sees any prospect of returning to work, and if there is anything that will help her do so.

This is her chance to say what she would like - but remember that even if they recommend it, that doesn't mean anything.

 

I'm going to be very blunt here, so please forgive me. This is just the way it is. Sorry.

 

It is nobodies fault if you lose your house (which is also possibly not the case - payment holidays etc., may be possible).

They may not be the nicest employers in the world, but the law does not require them to be nice.

 

it does not require them to organise their business around what your partner wants.

you know the job situation around where you live - you have already indicated that there are no other jobs of 30 hours or more to be had.

 

one or both of you need to get your act together.

 

She needs to go back to work.

And / or you need to go to work. If you scrape through by the skin of your teeth this time, you won't next time.

 

The employer isn't going to wait forever for her return.

Perhaps they are overly zealous at applying the rules.

Perhaps your wife would be better in a place with more people sound or her old place.

But none of that matters.

 

They are legally not doing anything wrong.

And that is the only thing that matters.

 

I am afraid that both of you really need to get down to brass tacks- you are at, or near the end of this journey, and one way or another it is unlikely to end wellSo you need to make some hard decisions.

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Thanks Sangie, appreciate the to-the-point tips and advice:

 

- My Mrs seems to believe she can't be sacked while she's on the sick and that can be up to 23 weeks sick. which ends on 4th October 2017 and that if she's sacked while sick that's unfair dismissal.

 

- It would not make us better off financially if I worked as that would mean losing the PIP and Housing Benefit etc that goes with it. The only solution is for her to talk it out with OH and perhaps ask to be moved elsewhere (or to find another job). ?

 

Appreciate any advice from anyone

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Thanks Sangie, appreciate the to-the-point tips and advice:

 

- My Mrs seems to believe she can't be sacked while she's on the sick and that can be up to 23 weeks sick. which ends on 4th October 2017 and that if she's sacked while sick that's unfair dismissal.

 

 

I am afraid that is not true. An employer can quite lawfully dismiss an employee on grounds of capability - that is to say that the employee, due to an extended period of sickness, is unable to fulfil the terms of their contract. Providing that the employer uses correct procedure - involves OH, takes recommendations, sets reasonable objectives etc then the dismissal would be lawful and reasonable in the circumstances. The standpoint is that the employer is running a business and the absence is causing disruption to the business

Any advice given is done so on the assumption that recipients will also take professional advice where appropriate.

 

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Well you actually made me laugh. Or at least your Mrs did. Get that right out of your head! She can certainly be dismissed whilst off sick. That, in itself, is not unfair dismissal. I have no idea where that notion keeps coming from. It is utterly and absolutely untrue. Employers do it all the time. And provided they follow a reasonable process, it's fair. And her employers appear to be following exactly that process.

 

PIP is not means tested- you can work and still get it. It is based on an assessment of your disability, not your financial status. And if you are renting, how would you lose your house - if she loses her job then housing benefit would cover the rent, wouldn't it? I assumed that you meant you wouldn't be able to pay the mortgage.

 

I think it is incredibly selfish of you to say that you'd split up. It may sound champion in your head, but if your relationship is worth so little to you, I doubt it will in hers! But I'm sure you don't mean it. However, this sort of thing isn't going to help her - you are sitting there saying that it's her responsibility to bring in the money to keep you together and with a roof over your head. So your entire future together depends upon her going back to work or getting another job, because if you tried to work you'd lose housing benefit. Does that sound quite as good now I've unpacked it???? No? Good.

 

Now you need to think this through together. You are not without options between you. Fewer than you'd like perhaps. But not without any. For example, I know her employers are not the nicest or most considerate she could have. But it is definitely easier to get a job when in one than when it of one. Can she cope with returning on the basis that it is about getting some space to find a new job? Are there things that you can do that would make returning easier? Is setting up her own cleaning business a possibility? Plenty of people pay for housework - I do! There must be options. Find them. Don't just give up.

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You already had the correct advice. You dont need to make another thread that just links to the old one.

Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

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Threads merged, I don't see any benefit in having a separate thread in a different CAG forum. You may not like the advice and I'm sorry about that, but the guys on the employment forum know their stuff.

 

HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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  • 5 weeks later...

Sorry for your treatment on here. Just watch out for some of the trolling on this forum, this hasn't been a good advert for people coming on here looking for help and support.

 

 

While there are some contributors who really know their stuff and others who are genuinely trying to advise you, albeit in an overly negative way, there are some contributors (and quite a lot of them) who deliberately play down any options you might have in order to make your situation seem worse than it is and make you feel bad about yourself

 

lf. The 'an employer is a business brigade' foe example - hardly any real employers actually say that to their staff.

The 'advice' you have received is not what you need when you have a family member suffering from depression.

I'd recommend looking at other posts from some of the contributors to this thread to see their overall tone and whether they're really willing and able to help you. This will help you sort out the wheat from the chaff.

 

You're situation is definitely not as bleak as has been made out, and you have more rights and options than have been indicated to you. Some of the advice you have received has been downright misleading.

 

Good luck with your situation, and apologies again for some of the posts you've received.

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Sorry for your treatment on here. Just watch out for some of the trolling on this forum, this hasn't been a good advert for people coming on here looking for help and support.

 

 

While there are some contributors who really know their stuff and others who are genuinely trying to advise you, albeit in an overly negative way, there are some contributors (and quite a lot of them) who deliberately play down any options you might have in order to make your situation seem worse than it is and make you feel bad about yourself. The 'an employer is a business brigade' foe example - hardly any real employers actually say that to their staff. The 'advice' you have received is not what you need when you have a family member suffering from depression. I'd recommend looking at other posts from some of the contributors to this thread to see their overall tone and whether they're really willing and able to help you. This will help you sort out the wheat from the chaff.

 

 

You're situation is definitely not as bleak as has been made out, and you have more rights and options than have been indicated to you. Some of the advice you have received has been downright misleading.

 

 

Good luck with your situation, and apologies again for some of the posts you've received.

 

Given that 98% of the responses in this thread are from the same poster...who is very experienced in this field..we fail to see any trolling or negative advice or any misleading advice given.Perhaps you could expand explicitly on what precisely you would advise as an alternative.

 

So no need to apologise on CAGs behalf.

 

Andyorch

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Since employers are a business, I find it incredible that you think they are not.

If you believe ANY PART of what I have said is wrong or legally incorrect, please point out where and why.

 

Any employee off sick for a significant period of time can, provided a legally fair process is followed, be sacked.

Would you prefer that posters are lied to to make them feel better?

Having depression does not make someone immune from the realities of employment law.

 

But from what I can see, the only person who appears to be trolling here is you

- abusing other posters, calling them trolls, and saying that people have other options without saying what you think those are.

If you have something constructive to say, say it.

Don't dig up old threads just to berate the advice.

Especially when you don't know what you are talking about.

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