Fumes entering car due to DPF but Toyota say it is due to my driving style and usage

[Bunchie69]

Please help! I have no idea where else to turn.

 

 

On 29th February 2016 I bought a Toyota Verso Excel D4D from Motorline Toyota.

 

Since taking ownership of the car on the 10th March 2016 I have had a problem with a recurrent smell inside the car. Initially I believed this to be as a result of me following other vehicles that were emitting an acrid smell. It happened regularly enough that it became a talking point in the car with my two older children who were then aged three and four. The smell often occurred on the school run which is approximately 4 miles from home.

 

Initially I noticed the smell occurred approximately once a month then on the 5th August 2016 whilst filling up my car with diesel at a petrol station, smoke appeared inside the car via the vent in the centre console. At the time my two sons and my baby daughter aged four months were inside the vehicle. Having paid for my diesel and returned to my car my eldest children asked me why smoke was coming inside the car. I immediately telephoned Motorline and told them about the problem and received a curt response which was that I had AA cover and I should call them. I was informed that they would decide if the car needed to be returned to them. I contacted the AA who came and inspected the car and diagnosed that the oil filler cap could not be tightened sufficiently enough without it popping off.

 

He advised me to contact Motorline and inform them. This I did and I was again surprised by their initial response. I was informed that they were unable to supply me with a new oil filler cap as they were having a problem with their suppliers. I replied that that was unacceptable as I could not be in a situation whereby my three children were in a car with smoke entering the inside. I was then advised that if I were to bring the car into the garage they would attempt to locate an oil filler cap that would fit from another car. This I did, a forty mile round trip. However they did manage to source an oil cap that fitted. I decided that the smell that I had noticed in the car must have been the result of the faulty oil cap and felt assured that now that the problem had been identified and rectified it would no longer be a problem.

 

However it did reoccur and I called the AA again on the 2nd September. They reported that they could find no reason for the smell and reassured me that everything appeared to be fine. The smell continued to occur approximately every three weeks and after yet another occurrence I called the AA out again on the 23rd December. Once again no obvious fault was identified and I was advised to contact Motorline Ashford.

 

In November I had received notification from Toyota that there was a safety recall on my car relating to the Throttle Body. I decided that I would contact Motorline in the New Year to arrange for the recall repairs to be carried out and to discuss the issues regarding the smell.

 

In the meantime, on an occasion when the smell occurred, I drove straight to a local garage to ask their opinion. They advised me that in there opinion the smell was not right and they advised me to contact Motorline .

 

I took the car to Motorline for the initial inspection on the 18th January 2017. I was advised that they would look into the car but they mentioned it may be due to the DPF. I had now noticed that the smell was occurring approximately every two weeks.

 

When I returned to collect my car I was advised that they had been unable to replicate the smell and so there was nothing that they could do. I explained that that was not acceptable and became emotional. I asked for advice as to what they thought I should do as when I stopped the car the smell would go. As far as I could see the only way I could get them to smell the smell would be to drive the 30 minutes from home to Ashford with at least two of my three children, if not all of them, being subjected to the awful fumes which I was concerned were harmful. I asked what they would advise I do in the event of the smell occurring again given that I did not feel it was appropriate to subject my children to the fumes in order to drive the car to Ashford. I asked if there was a garage local to me that they would not be happy for me to go to for them to give an initial assessment. She just repeated that the problem would have to be replicated whilst with them.

 

Following this event I decided to call Toyota Customer Relations. I rang them and relayed the problems I was having. I was informed that a case manager would be in contact with me within a few days. I never did receive a call from a case manager. I did however receive a call from the After Sales Manager. He agreed that they would use the car in a manner similar to myself in the hope that the smell would be generated. I agreed with this plan.

 

My car was collected on the 3rd February by Mark. The After Sales Manager rang me later that day and asked me if I knew how many miles I had done since I last noticed the smell as he was able to tell when the car had last gone through a cycle and how many miles I had driven since. He believed the smell was to do with the regeneration system. Given when the smell had last occurred and how many miles I had done since I concurred with this. My car was returned to me on the 6th February. He told me that the smell was due to the regeneration system but assured me that the fumes were not coming into the car. I asked how I was smelling them if they were not entering the car. He said that the system was close to where I sit in the car and that was why I may be able to smell it.

 

He explained that the regeneration system was designed to flood the engine with additional fuel and burn it off at a high temperature before dumping the fumes out of the car via the exhaust. He also explained that if the car had not completed a cycle it would emit a smell once stopped. He said that a regeneration cycle should occur on longer journeys and he felt that the problem may be because I was doing shorter journeys as I had been on maternity leave and doing more local journeys. He felt that this may also be the reason why I was smelling it more often. I explained that that did not make sense as I had recently driven a 30 minute drive and that the smell had occurred when I parked up at my destination. It was explained to me that as well as a longer journey other things had to be happening in the engine such as it getting to a particular temperature etc. to ensure a successful regeneration.

 

I asked that if I needed to do longer journeys for the regeneration system to work properly then I should have been informed of this when I bought the car as, knowing I was due to start Maternity Leave, I knew that I would not be doing long journeys. I suggested that the car may therefore have been mis-sold to me. He advised me that the regenerations system had now been reset to the factory settings (I believe he said that this was every 2000 litres of fuel). I asked what advice Toyota gave to their customers about the regeneration system and was informed me that none was available. He also told me that he had found out what he had by looking on google and reading chat forums. He asked me why I had chosen a diesel and I explained that it was what I was used to driving and that it was what I was advised to purchase when I was buying the car. He suggested that he could speak to Matt Brown about me changing my car and suggested either a petrol Verso or a Prius Plus. I said I would consider this.

 

We met with the manager on the 11th March. He agreed to see what he could do. He listened to my concerns and appeared to understand my distress. I explained that I knew that I would lose the £3204 I had paid in repayments but that I did not expect to be out of pocket as I believed the car was faulty. He agreed that finance would be 'sorted'. Matt agreed to look for a suitable car. I was happy to consider an older Prius Plus as well as a petrol Verso.

 

I received a telephone call from the dealership on the 20th March. I was given details of a Prius Plus. I was getting ready to leave the house and took quick details about the car including the repayment details. A day or so later I rang and spoke to Toyota and asked if I could have a more detailed breakdown of the finance for the car. I explained that whilst I accepted that I would lose the £3200 that I had spent paying for the car over the past year, I was not prepared to lose the £2200 part exchange value of my previous car as I was returning the car because I believed it to be faulty NOT because I had changed my mind. I was told that there was no way that I would get the £2200 back. I said that I believed that I had a case to take to Toyota Finance to say that I was in dispute over the car as I believed that the car was faulty.

 

I believe the car to be faulty and that it was mis-sold to me. I want to return my car and have the finance cleared and I wish to be reimbursed the £2200 I put down as a deposit (part exchange value of my Toyota Yaris)

 

 

I have written to Toyota Finance and have not yet had a response but I do not hold out much hope as I did write to the CEO and have had a response saying that 'the issues I have are a consequence of driving styles and usage.' they go on to say regarding my claim that the car was mis-sold that 'we have not been privy to those sales discussions and are unable to pass comment'.

 

 

The car was bought on finance. The initial cost was £17495 and I had £2200 deducted from that for the part exchange of my old car.

 

 

The car continues to smell inside the cabin on a regular basis and happened last week with all my three children in the car. It is a revolting, acrid smell that makes me feel sick. I am greatly concerned for my children's health being exposed to this smell.

 

 

Thank you to anyone that takes the time to read this.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Bunchie69

[johnjordan]

I cannot go into the legalities of this episode but I can explain what regeneration entails.

 

Modern diesel cars have a diesel particulate filter (DPF) fitted to filter out harmful emissions from the engine. When these filters start to fill up with the particulates the ECU begins a regeneration process. This process will only start when the engine reaches a certain temperature and needs to continue until the regeneration is complete. To achieve this you need to get the engine up to full temperature and then run it at around 2500-3000 revs for about 30 minutes, a good run on the motorway in third or fourth gear to keep the revs up usually does the trick.It is no good just taking it on a 30 mile run as you have said because the engine would probably only just reach full temperature in that distance and certainly not long enough for the regeneration to complete. Apart from the fumes you say you can smell inside the car everything else you have said is how modern diesels work. Short journeys are not a diesels friend but you can avoid most of this by doing what I have said above about once a month to keep the DPF in good condition.

 

Do the fumes you mention smell like burning rubber? If so then it is definitely the DPF regenerating itself.

[Bunchie69]

Thank you for you reply. It smells acrid and yes it does have a smell of burning rubber. I live in East Sussex, the one county in the country that has no motorways. I feel that the ins and outs of the DPF, should have been explained to me at the point of sale and it was never mentioned. I would never have bought the car had it been explained to me as I am not in a position to ensure the DPF operates correctly. I have only been aware of the DPF since this all started. Why is the smell entering the car and are the fumes damaging to me and my children's health?

[johnjordan]

I don't think it's up to the seller to explain the in's and out's of owning a diesel or petrol vehicle: I would have thought the onus was on the buyer to do his/her homework when deciding what vehicle they wanted.

 

I don't know about the legal side of all this or why the fumes are entering the car.

[Old Cogger]

most cars if you over rev or even when as in these days the EGR valve goes into operation you can get a slight smell at time exhaust fumes, every vehicle no matter what make these days I have had has this happen at times, - modern technowledgy - fact!

[Bunchie69]

I did look into petrol versus diesel and at the time I did not see anything that suggested a problem with the diesel. I did not know what a DPF was and it wasn't until after I had the problems that I searched about DPF and found the issues that arise with it. I had a diesel before and that did not have one so I had no idea that this new technology had come about or the implications of it. I did discuss with the salesman the way in which the car would be used and I understand that some manufacturers issue specific information regarding the upkeep of it. Toyota admit in their letter to me that during the sales process it is prudent for discussions to take place in relation to customer preferences in order to ensure that the right model is purchased to meet their day to day requirements.

[Bunchie69]

Fair enough but the fumes entering the car can surely not be right and this is one of the issues that Toyota will not acknowledge.

[heliosuk]

Are you able to state if the car was bought as new and what model year? Is it compliant with Euro 6 emissions regs by any chance which usually means it has an Add Blue dosing system. If so quite a few manufacturers are struggling with this issue at the moment. How long have you had the car, how many miles?

[ssparks2003]

I live in East Sussex, the one county in the country that has no motorways. I feel that the ins and outs of the DPF, should have been explained to me at the point of sale and it was never mentioned. I would never have bought the car had it been explained to me as I am not in a position to ensure the DPF operates correctly.

 

The flip side of the argument is that you should not buy something that you don't understand then blame others for your lack of knowledge. As to you your claim that living in East Sussex some how puts you on a enhanced position to win this argument and that Toyota should understand that you are uniquely disadvantaged by you location, the following counties do not have motorways: Cornwall, Dorset, Norfolk, Rutland, Suffolk, Aberdeenshire, Angus, Argyll, Banffshire, Berwickshire, Buteshire, Caithness, Cromartyshire, Clackmannanshire, Dunbartonshire,East Lothian, Inverness-shire, Kincardineshire, Kirkcudbrightshire, Moray, Nairnshire, Orkney, Peeblesshire, Ross-shire, Roxburghshire, Selkirkshire, Shetland, Sutherland, Wigtownshire, Anglesey, Brecknockshire, Caernarfonshire, Cardiganshire, Denbighshire, Merionethshire, Montgomeryshire, Pembrokeshire, Radnorshire, County Fermanagh, County Londonderry. Suggest that you read up on how to drive the car correctly and use it correctly; as far as i am aware East Sussex is not within a siege situation, you can leave the county.

[Old Cogger]

50+ years of driving and no vehicle found to be 100% exhaust fumes free - due to conditions at the time, heavy pedal use, bad gear change and small leakage at joints - etc etc etc = fact

[Guest Mrs Hobbit]

We drive a diesel. For the last two years, very little time on the motorway with just local driving, five miles ata time at the most. Saturday went shopping and a burning acrid smell started, thought it was sucking fumes in from the road via aircon, got home, mentioned it to the other half..he went around could smell nothing. he used the car on Monday, same thing happened to him. I mentioned the possibility of the DPF, he looks at me as if I had two heads, 'what the heck is that' he asked. Told him of your problem, so he takes the car up to our local garage on Tuesday and his best mate look at it...yep it's because we are not driving it any distance these days, so OH asked about the fumes in the car, 'no fumes actually entering car, but we can smell the 'burn off' more because we are using the aircon and this is dragging the smell into the car...

 

Irony of this OH used to be diesel mechanic in a former life and he had never heard of this. His mate explained the newer diesels have this system. OH is happy with the explanation, but says he thinks he might trade the car for a petrol one....

[Old Cogger]

the answer maybe is rear engined cars suitable as any smell to rear -0 not may if any these days.

 

 

know my Toyota 2001 MPV also old vauxhalls had same problem from time to time and many other models over decades that is petrol engines all were.are

 

using fuels and combustion = always canm be problem ???

[Bunchie69]

The car is a 64 plate and I bought it in February 2016. It was an ex demo car and so was only doing short journeys for them. It had 2000 miles on the clock when I bought it and now has 13000.

[Bunchie69]

There are 9 counties actually that do not have motorways in the UK! I do leave the county but I don't have the time to drive a two hour round trip to get onto a motorway every week!!!! The drive alone there is not enough to get the desired effect. I feel that if by not being able to get the regeneration to activate properly it is acceptable to bring fumes into the car to endanger my children then Toyota have some responsibility to advise me of that!

[Bunchie69]

Thank you for this. I have driven a diesel for the last 7 years and this was the first time I had come across the DPF. When I went to a local garage they could smell the smell and told me to speak to Toyota asap as they didn't know what it was.

[ssparks2003]

It is 9 countries in England (I missed IOW and the city of London) there is still Scotland, Wales and northern Ireland that you forget. Either way; you should know how to operate your vehicle correctly and not rely on what is said to you solely in the showroom. I bet that they didn't tell you to check the tire pressure regularly; but you still do. Modern diesel engines are designed for longer journeys and you are not driving it correctly. Perhaps you chose the wrong car but I do not believe Toyota forced this car upon you at knife point.

[heliosuk]

East Sussex does have a motorway, it's the M23. Either way, DPF's have been in for a long time now possibly longer than 7 years however emissions regs constantly change. I think here there is a possibility that this particular car might be subject to Euro6 regs where the majority of manufacturers use the add blue system which injects urea (smells like cats pee) into the DPF and this is where the smell comes from when it regenerates. It's not harmful but does give off peculiar smells. The key to getting rid of it is as with any DPF car the occasional fast run along a dual carriageway or motorway. Unfortunately I have to agree with Toyotas stance that there is nothing wrong with the car but you might like to know that you're now driving a very clean car which can only be good for you and your children.

 

 

So to me you have three options:

1. Change to a petrol and accept the loss.

2. Carry on as you currently do and accept that at some point the DPF will block to the extent that it cannot regenerate anymore and the car will breakdown/goes into limp home mode.

3. Make a point of going for a good fast drive along the many dual carriageways or motorway that exists in East Sussex.

 

 

This issue with DPF's is nothing new and perhaps a bit pointless as was brought in to reduce emissions but the emissions generated in producing the DPF in the first place far outweighs what they were initially designed to do let alone the add on's since

[scaniaman]

Last paragraph= excellent posting

[Bunchie69]

the m23 is in West Sussex!

[Bunchie69]

You clearly don't live here. The nearest motorway to me is in Kent and is an hour round trip and there are no dual carriageways within 40 minutes of me!

[ssparks2003]

The location of the motorway is irrelevant and so is your claim of being missold the car, ultimately the issue you describe is not a fault it is a characteristic of diesel engines. Unless you can prove with engineer's reports that this is a fault and you are prepared to go to court and you are prepared to lose then follow the advice you have been given

[heliosuk]

You clearly don't live here. The nearest motorway to me is in Kent and is an hour round trip and there are no dual carriageways within 40 minutes of me!

No I don't actually, I live in the real world but did do 10 years on the East Sussex/West Sussex border so you're obviously picking at straws.

 

 

One of the main reasons vehicle emission controls are so stringent now madam is down to the school run with mummies taking there over protected obese brats to school because they can't be bothered to walk. I see it every day and have to deal with people like you complaining about this when they have clearly mis understood a modern car. Fair play to Toyota and I hope they stick to their guns.

[Old Cogger]

try an electric car next time - in the real world of non combustion engines, heard it all now!

[heliosuk]

How very true Old Cogger, even then you won't be able to satisfy people as they'll be claiming the range is inaccurate. Reliable electric cars that can go the distance are a long way off. However at this moment in time if you only want to potter around town and can charge up for 14 hours a day then they seem to work . Then there are the hybrids but that's another tale lol!