Gemini windscreen PCN - Olympic Park estate (own parking space)

[Jamieh89]

Hi Everybody.

 

I'm new here so please go easy on me if I've missed anything.

 

I live in the Olympic Village and pay £75 a month for a number allocated parking space in the underground car park which is managed by Gemini Parking Solutions.

 

Last Monday (Bank holiday Monday 17th) I found a Parking Charge Notice on my windscreen and a ticket attached for £100 or £65 if paid within 14 days. I also found that my parking permit had fallen off of the dashboard onto the footwell.

 

I emailed my managing agent who asked for a photograph of my permit + a photograph of my ticket and they would ask Gemini to cancel the ticket.

 

 

I received an email back today stating that because the permit wasn't on display they can't cancel the ticket.

 

 

I've filled in as much of the information below as possible and would really appreciate any advice on how to proceed.

 

1 The date of infringement? 17/03/2017

 

2 Have you yet appealed to the parking company yet? [Y/N?] N

 

if you have then please post up whatever you sent and how you sent it and the date you sent it,

suitably redacted. [as a PDF- follow the upload

 

has there been a response?

please post it up as well, suitably redacted. [as a PDF- follow the upload guide]

 

If you haven't appealed yet - ,.........

 

have you received a Notice To Keeper? (NTK) [must be received by you between 29-56 days]

what date is on it

Did the NTK provide photographic evidence? No NTK

 

3 Did the NTK mention Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) [Y/N?]

 

4 If you appealed after receiving the NTK,

did the parking company give you any information regarding the further appeals process?

[it is well known that parking companies will reject any appeal whatever the circumstances]

 

5 Who is the parking company? Gemini Parking Solutions

 

6. where exactly [Carpark name and town] did you park? Venetian House, Olympic Park, Gemini Parking Solutions

[dx100uk]

await the NTK.

they have to send that between 29-56 day after the windscreen ticket to be compliant

dx

[silverfox1961]

Hi and welcome to CAG

I agree with DX to wait for the NTK to arrive.

 

In the meantime, was Gemini in place when you took the lease? Were they appointed at a later time? What does your lease say about parking?

 

If there were any changes to parking, did the management company inform you?

 

What signage is in place in the garage? (we could do with some pictures as a pdf file) Is the garage open to all or does it have a security gate?

[Jamieh89]

Thanks for the swift replies.

 

I noticed a few other threads with Gemini suggesting appealing one of 2 days before the end of the 30 day period.

Should I just wait for the NTK in this case and not register an appeal?

 

I'm afraid I don't quite remember whether Gemini was in place when I originally signed my lease.

 

I will check what's written into my contract regarding parking once I'm home this evening and will post some PDF's with the ticket, my permit and the signage in the building.

 

No - the parking is secure and you need a key fob to enter.

[dx100uk]

you wait the NTK

 

 

dx

[ericsbrother]

You post here without taking a good trawl though other parking threads and when told what is the best thing to do you then think that somehow this isnt applicable.

 

I have never seen a post that says appeal before the NTK.

I can only assume that you have misread the posts and got the 28 days allowed to appeal after the issuing of the NTK or the rejection of that appeal to go to the adjudicator mixed up with this 29-56 days allowed to issue a NTK under the POFA.

There is no 30 day period for anything

 

understand that this is not about parking,

it is about contracts

 

so Gemini will have to show that they have a right to force you to enter into a contract and I very much doubt that they can as you have what is called supremacy of contract.

 

What generally happens is these companies worm their way into a place by making all sorts of promises to the development's managing agents and offer their services for free.

 

As the only way they can make money is to issue "fines" they find any reason to do so when in reality in a gated development there are precisely none.

 

As they have no way of making money legitimately

they aren't going to give up on this easily

 

expect a load of garbage from them,

even after you have told them they are provably in the wrong.

 

your managing agent is either incompetent or the crook who invited Gemini onto the property so that is why you got no help.

 

DO NOT EMAIL anyone from now on,

letters only when communication is required.

[Jamieh89]

Hi Ericsbrother,

 

Please accept my apologies - I had read "In the case of CURRENT BRITISH PARKING ASSOCIATION (BPA) AOS MEMBERS ONLY, appeal online or by email at around day 26 after a windscreen PCN but as the KEEPER, not driver, using the BPA member version (blue writing) template below." I must have picked up the wrong end of the stick.

 

It's now just over a month later and I've received an NTK in the post. I have attached the picture via JPEG below.

 

Please could you help me with what to do next? I have had a read through the stickies but I'm unable to work out what the best course of action is.

[DragonFly1967]

Just so we're clear... Have you appealed anything, in any capacity? (driver or keeper)

 

You may want to redact that image further, as the PCN number is showing

[honeybee13]

I can't read your attachment, Jamie. Would you be able to redo it as a pdf please? That way we can magnify it to read easily.

 

HB

[dx100uk]

ive hidden your attachment as you need to remove ALL ref numbers etc

follow the upload

 

 

dx

[DragonFly1967]

So that others can see it, I've taken the liberty of redacting the PCN and converting it to PDF for the OP.

Parking.pdf

[Jamieh89]

Thank you DragonFly that's very kind of you and very much appreciated.

 

To answer your question I have made no formal appeal. I did appeal to my agent who manages the secure parking garage. I will include what was said below.

"I have received a parking ticket this weekend in my designated space (bay 28) in the underground car park for Venetian House. I live at number 7 Venetian House.

 

I do have a permit, which you guys should hopefully have a record of on file (although if you need me to send a photo of this, I can do so later) but it had fallen off of the dashboard into the foot well without me noticing.

 

Please, can you cancel this ticket? I will make sure that the permit is properly fixed to the windscreen at all times in future."

 

I received a reply a couple of days later asking for a photo of the PCN and the Parking permit (no reg, address or name on permit). I duly sent these back and received the following response 1 week later.

East Village Management have contacted me back regarding the parking ticket you have been issued. Unfortunately, due to the permit not being on display, the parking regulator, Gemini Parking, are not able to cancel the issued ticket.

 

I did not reply, then received the following, another 2 weeks later.

I'm writing in regards to your recent parking ticket that we appealed with East Village Management upon your request. Gemini, who are contracted to enforce parking regulations and issue tickets for infringements, have reviewed the photographic evidence taken by the traffic warden and unfortunately on this occasion stand by their decision. Their response states: 'parking permit is not clearly displayed'.

 

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news. As your landlord we're unable to take this any further, however should you want to appeal against this ticket yourself, on the back of your parking ticket there will be details of how to do so (if you haven't already), or alternatively you can call 0871 200 2143 which is Gemini's customer service number.

Again I haven't replied and awaited the NTK which arrived yesterday.

 

Please let me know if you need anything else from me

[DragonFly1967]

OK then, it's time to "appeal" to Gemini. They're BPA members (so you'll end up at POPLA) so it matters not one bit what grounds you choose to appeal on.

 

 

The vehicle was in the parking space because it had been abducted by aliens and then put back in the parking spot. Unfortunately during its flight it was turned upside down. Lucky for me they put it back on its wheels when they put it back.

 

 

It's as good as anything. No matter what you write, they'll reject your appeal anyway, there's no profit in allowing appeals!

 

 

Appeal in writing, the old fashioned way with paper, an envelope and a stamp. That way it costs them more money to write back to you (it's always nice to waste as much of their money as possible )

 

When they write back to you rejecting your appeal, they'll need to include a POPLA code (10 digit number), and that's when you submit your full, proper appeal. Which, as you have a permit (displayed or not) you will win 95% of the time. Even if POPLA decide against you (unlikely) their decision is not binding on you, so Gemini would still have to prove their case in court if they actually wanted to get any money out of you.

 

 

It would be useful at this point to read your lease fully, see what it says about parking and whether or not it says that "permits MUST be displayed", I'd put money on it not saying that. And if it doesn't, Gemini don't stand a snowball in hell's chance of ever convincing a court that you do owe them money, and if they can't prove their case, they'll end up owing you money, which makes your victory all the sweeter.

[ericsbrother]

you will be pleased to know that the begging letter from Gemini is not POFA compliant so no keeper liability, although as it is your car in YOUR space that is a bit of a moot point apart from the fact they havent named the creditor.

 

 

This means you can also tell them/appeal saying that you have paid the charge to a bloke who happened to be loitering in the car park who claimed to be the creditor so you paid him and no further monies can possibly be due as you have satisfied the debt according to law.

 

Again, they will reject this but this statement rather undoes their claim as it doesnt say that you have to pay them as they do not claim to be the creditor.

 

 

That fact will make it very diffcult for them to then press ahead to recover a debt that has been satisfied

 

The managing agents are talking out of the wrong end of their alimentary canal but since they earn a few quid from the whole deal they arent going to rob themselves just because Gemini are stupid.

 

Of course the NTK said the charge was for NO Permit and you have a permit.

They dont say anything about a contractual condition or a breach of contract, just what they have classed as an absolute condition which has been satisfied.

 

POPLA will side with Gemini because they are paid to do so, not an honest arbitration based on law so they dont advertise their services as being such.

[Jamieh89]

Thank you, both.

 

To summarise I will write an appeal, by hand, and deliver by first class post with a stamp.

 

The appeal can be based on any reason (as it will be rejected regardless and later appealed with POPLA) but I will base the appeal on having a permit as nowhere does it state that the permit must be displayed. Just that I have one in my possession so their absolute condition of "No Permit" has been satisfied.

 

Hopefully, I've understood correctly.

 

Ericsbrother - you mentioned in your final point that POPLA will side with Gemini. Does that mean that this will almost certainly need to be decided in court to have any chance of not paying?

[ericsbrother]

No,

Gemini would be foolish to take you to court when they know it is a doomed claim.

That will get up a judges nose somewhat and can order full costs against them.

TBH Gemini are pretty dumb so do tend to back off when you have created a proper paper trail.

 

POPLA used to be run by the londontribunals but now it is administered by Ombudsmandservices Ltd, a private company that has a very limited remit because the parking co's used to lose almost every appeal when certain things were challenged.

 

Now,

Gemini arent going to let anything through because they would have no income whatsoever if the started obeying the law based on their garbage signage and letters

 

 

so you then appeal to POPLA,

who arent likely to allow your appeal because the facts of the matter are outside their limited remit.

 

 

This doesnt mean that there is a legitimate claim from Gemini and they may well not challenge the appeal if it looks like they are about to get rumbled over something like the legitimacy of their contract with the landowner

( they dont have one so they and POPLA will lie to you over this)

 

 

It is all about raising enough points to make them realise that you arent a pushover and have tried to deal with it properly and they haven't.

[DragonFly1967]

For what it's worth, I don't agree with EB on the POPLA point. Certainly they're paid for by the parking companies and the BPA, but I personally have never had any issues with them when a valid case as to why the ticket isn't valid is given. Perhaps I've just been lucky.

 

Court is the only way that the PPC can ever hope to actually get paid (it's not about not paying). And to get to court and win, they will have to show that you did not have a permit. Might be a bit of a problem for them, seeing as you do have one

[Jamieh89]

Hi Guys,

 

I've appealed my ticket as suggested and have now received a response. The wording I used for my appeal is below:

 

Please accept this as a formal appeal to the PCN Reference: *****, Reg Number *****

 

I received a PCN on 17th April 2017 with the reason “No Permit”. I enclose a picture of my parking permit which was in the vehicle at the time of the ticket.

 

There is no mention in your letter of the permit having to be on display nor any mention breach of contract or contractual condition relating to the ownership of a permit.

 

Nowhere in your invoice does it mention that the permit should have been on display and you have classed the absolute condition as “No Permit” which I have hereby satisfied.

 

I have attached a PDF of the appeal response which arrived a couple of days to go. Points to note in the appeal:

 

"We noted your comments that you had a valid permit on display"

 

I made no mention of my permit being on display, just that I had one and they didn't state that it needed to be displayed in their NTK

 

"On the date of contravention there was no Triathlon Homes permit on display. A valid Triathlon Homes Permit must

be displayed if parked in this location"

 

Triathlon Homes have absolutely nothing to do with my apartment, the building or the car park. My building is managed by Get Living London - Triathlon Homes manages a completely different area of the East Village Development and are an entirely different company. My permit is issued by Get Living London

 

" Signage displayed throughout the development all motorists must display a valid Permit within the windscreen of the vehicle at all times "

 

Nowhere on any signage is the word "windscreen" mentioned. Nor was it mentioned in the NTK.

 

As you can see - quite frankly they are lazy, are lying through their teeth and can't even be bothered to make sure they quote the correct management company.

 

I'd be very grateful for any further advice.

 

Thanks!

 

I've also just noticed that they refer to the location as NO1, East Village Development, E20 1AN -

 

This is completely incorrect - as per the developer map which you can find on by googling the address on the letter my apartment building is not plot N01 or anywhere near it for that matter. (which explains the incorrect management company)

Appeal Letter .pdf

[dx100uk]

Ignore now

Unless you get a claimform

[ericsbrother]

you have done more than enough for them to consider and correct their mistakes

 

 

but dont forget, they are stupid and greedy so this may well not be the end of it.

 

 

However, they will lose because of any number of reasons you have highlighted and Gemini are particularly bad at doing things correctly anyway so most likely result is more threats and then silence

[Jamieh89]

Great - so no need to appeal to POPLA now? Just silence from here on in...

 

Thanks

Jamie.

[ericsbrother]

down to you,

it makes no difference to the legality fo the claim and POPLA tend to accept any rubbish told to them by the operator regardless of how wrong this is ( ie: different car park in different town for example)

 

 

the outcome of the exercise is questionable

but it does cost the parking co money and thus can be considered worth it for that reason.

 

 

Gemini have also dropped claims as soon as they go to POPLA as well, probably to hide other problems with their contracts so overall it wont harm you to do so.

 

Alternately, you know where they have gone wrong so you can also be secure in the knowledge that any action they do take later is doomed to fail

[silverfox1961]

I have also heard that Gemini don't challenge a POPLA appeal but as soon as you appeal and Gemini accept the POPLA appeal, this costs them around £30. As they don't like losing money, they tend not to agree and drop it.