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    • ok looks like that's what you need to do. but keep it bare bones for now as post 5  
    • stuff and all if there no signed agreement in the return   dx  
    • 1st again why do you keep changing things before you send them   you've added counterclaim in to our std CPR 31:14 you sent? why? this opens you up to additional costs and I hope you didnt tick counterclaim when you did AOS on mcol too?   also I notice you've  played with our std OD defence above too...   pers I would refrain from continuing to change things as they are written in the frain they are for specific reasons.   your defence is due by 4pm Monday [day 33]   here are 2 versions you will ofcourse need to adapt them to lowells para no's and remove the NOA stuff as your docs show Lowell have complied with those. but don't forget to mention other documents provided to date notably statements contain no proof they came from Lloyds but rather Lowells own internal data system    dx   1. It is admitted with regards to the Defendant entering into an Agreement referred to in the Particulars of Claim ('the Agreement') with the [insert original creditor] . .  2. The defendant denies that the account exceeded the agreed overdraft limit due to overdrawing of funds but is as a result of unfair and extortionate bank charges/penalties being applied to the account. .  3. I refute the claimants claim is owed or payable. The amount claimed is comprised of amongst others default penalties/charges levied on the account for alleged late, missed or over limit payments. The court will be aware that these charge types and the recoverability thereof have been judicially declared to be susceptible to assessments of fairness under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 The Office of Fair Trading v Abbey National PLC and others (2009). I will contend at trial that such charges are unfair in their entirety. .  4. It is denied that the Claimant has the right to lay a claim due to contraventions of Section 136 of the Law of Property Act and Section 82A of the consumer crediticon Act 1974. The Claimant has yet to provide a copy of the Notice of Assignment its claim relies upon. .  5. The claimant is denied from added section 69 interest within the total claimed that as yet to be decided at the courts discretion. .  6. As per Civil Procedure Rule 16.5(4), it is expected that the Claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed. .  The claimant is also put to strict proof to:-. .  (a) Provide a copy agreement/facility arrangement along with the Terms and conditions at inception, that this claim is based on.  (b) Provide a copy of the Notice served under 76(1) and 98(1) of the CCA1974 Demand /Recall Notice and Notice of Assignment.  (c) Provide a breakdown of their excessive charging/fees levied to the account with justification.  (d) Show how the Claimant has reached the amount claimed.  (e) Show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim.  (f) Show how they have complied with sections III & IV of Practice Direction - Pre-action Conduct. .  7. On receipt of this claim I requested documentation by way of a CPR 31.14 request dated [xxxxxxx] namely the Agreement and Termination Demand Notice referred to in the claimants Particulars of Claim. The Claimant has failed to comply with this request. .  By reason of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief. .  .............. or  Particulars of Claim  1.The claim is for the sum of 2470.56 in respect of monies owing pursuant to an overdraft facility under account number XXXXXX XXXXXXXXXX.  2.The debt was legally assigned by Santander UK Plc to the claimant and notice has been served.   3.The Defendant has failed to repay overdrawn sums owing under the terms and conditions of the bank account.   The Claimant claims:  The sum of 2470.56 Interest pursuant to s69 of the county courticon Act 1984 at a rate of 8.00 percent from the 7/04/2015 to the date hereof 14 days is the sum of 7.58Daily interest at the rate of .54  Costs Defence  The Defendant contends that the particulars of the claim are vague and generic in nature. The Defendant accordingly sets out its case below and relies on CPR r 16.5 (3) in relation to any particular allegation to which a specific response has not been made.   1. It is admitted with regards to the Defendant once having had banking facilities with the original creditor Santander Bank. It is denied that I am indebted for any alleged balance claimed.   2. Paragraph 2 is denied.I am not aware or ever receiving any Notice of Assignment pursuant to the Law and Property Act 1925. It is denied that the Claimant has the right to lay a claim due to contraventions of Section 136 of the Law of Property Act and Section 82A of the consumer crediticon Act 1974. The Claimant has yet to provide a copy of the Notice of Assignment its claim relies upon.   3. Paragraph 3 is denied. The Original Creditor has never served notice pursuant to 76(1) and 98(1) of the CCA1974  Any alleged amount claimed could only consist in the main of default penalties/charges levied on the account for alleged late, rejected or over limit payments. The court will be aware that these charge types and the recoverability thereof have been judicially declared to be susceptible to assessments of fairness under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 The Office of Fair Trading v Abbeyicon National PLC and others (2009). I will contend at trial that such charges are unfair in their entirety.  4. As per Civil Procedureicon Rule 16.5(4), it is expected that the Claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed.  The claimant is also put to strict proof to:-.  (a) Provide a copy agreement/overdraft facility arrangement along with the Terms and conditions at inception that this claim is based on.  (b) Provide a copy of the Notice served under 76(1) and 98(1) of the CCA1974 Demand /Recall Notice and Notice of Assignment.  (c) Provide a breakdown of all excessive charging/fees and show how the Claimant has reached the amount claimed.   (d) Show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim.  (e) Show how they have complied with sections III & IV of Practice Direction - Pre-action Conduct.  5. On receipt of this claim I requested documentation by way of a CPR 31.14 request dated April 2015 namely the Agreement and Termination Demand Notice referred to in the claimants Particulars of Claim. The Claimant has failed to comply with this request.   By reason of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief.  Regards  Andy    
    • Hi   Just read your thread and looked at the Docs posted in your PDF.   1. from AST to rent a Car Parking space you need to have signed a Car Parking Agreement for a Space and for visitors you should have asked permission for another space in advance with a fee to pay. (i also assume renting a parking space would be at a cost)   2. You have no signed Car Parking Agreement nor visitor space agreement.   Did you not fully read that AST before you signed it and pick up what is stated about parking and ask them about this Car Parking Agreement and if you need one to park in the car park?   You could formally complain to them about what was verbally said to you but unless you have evidence of this it may be hard to prove.   You should also contact them and ask how you go about renting a Car Parking space/costs and about the Car Parking Agreement also what the process is for a visitor car parking space/costs.   You need to be aware that they could class you and your visitor as illegally parking in there car park without consent nor a signed car parking agreement which they could use as a Breach of your Tenancy Agreement so you need to be careful in how you are approaching this and where you are parking.   Just for info on checking Manchester Life website they have numerous buildings/apartments/car parks but you may be in a building where some of the apartments are leasehold and as part of there leasehold they may have purchased a car parking space in that building. (so how do you know you are not parking in a space that someone in the building has legally purchased?)
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wotnwhy

Ongoing, unresolved account dispute passed on to debt collection. Thomann music store.

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Hi,

I bought some items from Thomann.de in December last year.

Paid by Paypal.

Got 'Payment accepted' notice and items arrived.

 

A few weeks ago I get an e-mail from Thomann asking me to pay an outstanding balance.

I thought it was some sort of phishing [problem],

but after checking it out,

everything seemed legit.

 

 

I replied asking them what I owed them money for

(at this point still assuming the order that was completed 4 months ago was, indeed, completed..)

 

Apparently, my Paypal payment didn't go through at the time, but they sent the items anyway and opened an account....

 

"Since you are an old customer, we sent the order on open invoice and sent an email with this information."

 

 

I never received the supposed e-mail, and (as I pointed out in my reply) never responded to give this the OK...

 

If I didn't have the funds to pay, then I'm sorry but you should not have sent the items...

I did not agree to set up a credit account. And I do not accept you making this decision for me, ESPECIALLY without asking me!

 

 

Just because I am an 'old customer' does not mean it's ok for you to set things up on my behalf without my permission!

 

You cannot send me an invoice bill 4 months after a purchase where I was told at the time my payment was accepted and had gone through.

 

 

Thomann clearly weren't happy with that response as the next message contained a threat of a debt collection agency:

 

We only did this out of trust...we did inform you immediately after we took the deicision to send the goods out. There is no interest to pay or nothing like that.

 

You did received goods for which you did not pay!

We did notify you about this.

You can also check your paypal account to see there was no payment made.

 

We will ask you to please settle the outstanding payment or return the goods if they are still in new condition. If not, we will be forced to forward this case on to a debt collection agency.

 

 

In my response, I expressed my disappointment in them so readily resorting to threats, but also continued on the path to resolution:

 

I'm happy to work with both solutions you've offered, but both have problems:

If you want the items back that's fine, if you organise a courier I'll be happy to return them.

 

 

But I have had them for several months so there is no packaging and everything is used.

If you wanted everything back unused you should have dealt with this matter either quicker

(so I could return unopened), or differently (so I could say 'no' to being sent on credit).

 

If you want paying for the items, fine.

But I do not have that kind of money any more, not even close.

 

 

I am barely (and not always) able to keep on top of rent and bills.

a repayment system would have to be in extremely small increments, and flexible month to month.

 

 

That was sent to them on Thursday (13th April).

All the correspondence above were on the same day with messages about an hour apart.

 

Today I get an e-mail from debt collectors....

 

I responded immediately with:

You have been sold a bad debt.

Ongoing dispute is not resolved, and Thomann GmbH do not have the legal right to assume an outstanding debt yet.

 

Then I started searching the net for advice and found this place.

Probably should have done that the other way round!

 

So, where do you think I stand on all this?

I think the two resolution offers I gave to Thomann are more than fair and reasonable considering the circumstances.

 

 

They clearly disagree, but surely they don't have the right to pass onto a debt collector at this point??

 

edit: Forgot to add, the amount is £87.52

 

Edited by wotnwhy

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I know of this company, through taking an interest in online guitar related Youtube videos and other sites. They are known for being a friendly bunch with good customer service.

 

It is pretty old fashioned service that they chase you up 4 months afterwards, for goods that you have used and not paid for.

 

They have not set up a credit account. Simply a customer account recording the outstanding bill.

 

Within the EU area there is a cross border debt collection arrangement. They can get a UK Solicitor to issue a UK court claim, which will include relevant costs e.g court fees. You could end up with a CCJ on your UK records.

 

I would suggest that if you agree that the bill has not been paid, that you come to an arrangement with Thomann directly and you do not need to deal with their debt collection agency.


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Thankyou for your response, but your suggestion for a solution is where the problem is.

 

I was trying to come to an arrangement with Thomann directly, but they ignored my last message and passed the debt on to Credit Limits International LTD.

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They just want the £87 paid as quickly as you can do it. If money is tight now, offer say 2 monthly instalments.

 

Credit limits are not real debt collectors.

They don't actually manage any debts, as they are not authorised by the FCA.

 

 

All they provide is a suite of letters for a small fee.

So Thomann have simply used a template letter and they still have the debt on their accounts.


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Thankyou :)

 

I will chase up Thomann for a reply to my last message to them.

As I said to them, I'm happy to arrange a way to repay.

But I cannot afford to pay in full, or even two instalments.

But considering the circumstances, that really shouldn't be a problem for them.

And certainly not grounds for ignoring me and passing on to faux debt collectors..

 

I think it is wrong for a company to send something when payment failed, without asking permission.

As I said to them, it was not the agreement I entered into and I would have turned it down or returned the items unopened if I had had any idea at the time.

 

 

But I no longer have either option because they made an assumption,

then waited 4 months to follow that decision up..

. A single e-mail from them, that was never confirmed or responded to, is not adequate imho...

 

If they had acted correctly, or not dragged their heels with a follow up, then this could have all been avoided or resolved without fuss.

 

 

But now here I am suffering because of their poor decisions and slow action...

 

Then on top of that,

they ignore my offer of a resolution and make it look like they've passed it on to a debt collection agency.

Surely that's out of order?

Edited by wotnwhy

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Put yourself in their shoes.

If this was your business and a customer had received £87 of goods, payment had failed, with it now seeming to be a problem in them paying, i don't think you would be a happy bunny.

 

I try not to judge, but if you want my honest opinion, i think you are being a bit unreasonable.


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did you check Paypal, and the payment did not happen?


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Put yourself in their shoes. If this was your business and a customer had received £87 of goods, payment had failed, with it now seeming to be a problem in them paying, i don't think you would be a happy bunny.

 

I try not to judge, but if you want my honest opinion, i think you are being a bit unreasonable.

 

I think it's important to reiterate that the payment failed. THEN they took the decision to send the goods out. It was not a case of them sending goods, then the payment later bouncing.

If it had been in the order you said, I would totally agree with you. I mean I still agree with you now, but I'm not a happy bunny either, and since both our grievances are down to their actions, I believe my unhappy bunny trumps theirs :violin:Haha! :)

 

I thank you and truly appreciate your honest opinion. But please tell me how you think I'm being unreasonable? As I just don't see it. I have acknowledged the debt and agreed to pay it back. I don't see how being too poor to pay it off quickly is unreasonable? Especially in the circumstances.

 

And staying on that vein for a moment, do you think it's also unreasonable to leave a customers (unknown) debt sitting for four months without a single follow up, then expect them to jump up with full payment the day you finally contact them? I only ask because in each reply you have seemed sympathetic to them (no problem with that, as I've said, I agree :) ), but have not expressed any sympathy for the situation they have put me in.

(note - please don't take any of this as confrontational, these are sincere questions and I appreciate the dialogue. But I know I can often be interpreted the wrong way so just making the point that all is said with a :) )

 

I have been going back through my e-mails and found the correspondence. I never delete any e-mails, even the ones I haven't read, which are now at 3k+!

 

I can see why I missed the e-mail.

On the order date 17/12/16, I got two confirmation e-mails. On the 18/12/16 I got yet another confirmation e-mail (the first one I opened), which read:

- Thank you very much for ordering with Thomann and your trust in our products and services.

- We hereby confirm the conclusion of the sales contract of the items you ordered, which are listed separately once again below.

- With this email we are sending you an order confirmation with every position and all details of your order for you to check.

- To avoid mistakes and misunderstandings we would kindly ask you to go through all positions and check if they are correct and complete. In case you find any error please let us know immediately.

Sounds like a pretty conclusive confirmation of a successfully completed transaction, no? And was the third e-mail regarding the order (first one I actually opened and read, but reading first two today, they are both confirmations too).

 

On 28/12/17 (note this is 10 days later) I get two more e-mails, the one I open reads:

- We know you are looking forward to receiving your delivery! We are delighted to inform you that your shipment has left our warehouse today.
Unfortunately, I never opened the second one. As, like with ebay and other online shops, it just looked like their e-mails often come in groups (ref. the two confirmation e-mails on the 17th).

I say unfortunately, because it would seem it contained this vital info:

- When processing your order we unfortunatly experienced problems charging the invoice amount from your credit card or PayPal account.

- The reason for this could be that the service was temporarily unavailable, that there were temporary problems with your bank or that through our charge a limit would have been exceeded. Most banks work with internal limits, independently from the actual limit (e.g. for mail orders or international payments).

- In order to avoid a delay and inconvenience and as you have been a good and loyal customer, we have decided to ship your order on open invoice instead.

Again, I think it's worth noting that this is 10 days after the order was confirmed as successful by three separate e-mails (one that I read). And sent at the same time as the order dispatched e-mail.

 

Yes, I should have been more diligent and opened the second e-mail. But it's usually just some company blurb/offer/extra sell/newsletter etc. Or part of a series of update e-mails (order packed, order picked up, order out for delivery etc.). So was overlooked.

 

Yes, overlooking that 1 e-mail was a mistake (a big one, it would seem). But still a small and very innocent mistake compared to their big (but still innocent) mistake of not waiting for confirmation/asking my permission, and the even bigger (and imho, not so innocent) mistake of leaving it four months before sending the next e-mail.

 

This is why I don't think my vexation at the matter is unreasonable (but still up for discussion on that :) ). All that was needed was something like 'Payment Problem' as the subject of the first e-mail, rather than it being the order number, and it would have stood out from the other 5 and I'd have read it. Or how about a follow up e-mail a few days/a week/a fortnight/a month/6 weeks/two months later?

 

All I did was miss one little e-mail. It just so happened to be the one that contradicted all the others... :(

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When you just look at this in a simple way, that you ordered something, they sent it to you because of previous custom and have given you 4 months to pay the £87 due, i can't see that the retailer is unjustified in treating this as a debt. Yes they might have poor accounts admin process, but perhaps they are just trusting of their customers to pay what is due.

 

If you now have financial problems, then it is up to you how you deal with it. Explain your situation and just pay them over a relevant period. Or you can't pay it, as you have other priorities and see what happens. The same as any other debt, if Thomann wanted to issue a court claim in the UK they can do so, but given the amount, they might not bother.


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I'm starting to wonder if you actually reading what I type, or just skimming it and making assumptions... You've replied 4 times now (which I appreciate), but each time seem to just be reiterating the same simple point, which confuses me as it's one that I; a) haven't missed, and b) actually acknowledge in every one of my posts..? :|

 

I do not dispute or disagree with anything you're saying? :???:You've made the same simple point in each of your posts and each time I've agreed with you. It's a simple and clear cut situation. They've sent goods, I owe them money for it. I've never suggested I don't think I should pay it, only that I cant' pay it in full right now...? So again, I fail to see why you keep focusing on the simple facts that no-one here is disputing??

 

What I'm moaning about here, (which I thought would be obvious to anyone reading this thread by now), is the fact that they only informed me of this by a single e-mail, then left it four month before contacting me again. Meaning it not only came as a very unexpected and unwelcome surprise, but also at a time where I don't have the money to pay it back in full today. Then in addition to springing an unwelcome surprise, they have also ignored my offer of repayments and moved on to debt collector style letters.

 

At no point in my posts have I made any suggestion that I think they are unjustified in viewing this as a debt, so why do you keep feeling the need to defend the debt when no-one is disputing it? As I say, to keep missing the point this way suggests that you're not actually reading what I'm typing...

 

And finally, the advice you offer to move forward is exactly what I detailed as being my last communication to then, which they ignored. But you say it as if it's something I haven't done. So again, you leave me wondering how much you're actually reading my posts?

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I just noticed the title of the thread contains the term "account dispute", and could certainly be interpreted as my disputing the actual debt. But you would still need to ignore all the thread content to reach that conclusion.. But I can see how it may lead to you reading the thread with a certain spin.

A more fitting term would have been "account issue", as there is no dispute, just the issue of my offer of repayments being ignored and them moving it on to a faux debt collector.

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Yes i did read. You are not happy about the process Thomann have used. I should imagine that this might be down to them being a large store and not having sufficient admin staff. They send emails and then take 4 months to chase it up. In Germany, they probably just pass to their legal advisors to issue court claims if needed. But as you are in the UK, it is more difficult.

 

It is then what you can do practically. You want to pay, but don't have the funds. Explain to Thomann in an email and advise them you will pay when funds are available. Save the money up over a few months and pay them.


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Yes i did read. You are not happy about the process Thomann have used. I should imagine that this might be down to them being a large store and not having sufficient admin staff. They send emails and then take 4 months to chase it up. In Germany, they probably just pass to their legal advisors to issue court claims if needed. But as you are in the UK, it is more difficult.

 

So what part of that did you think was unreasonable of me?

 

It is then what you can do practically. You want to pay, but don't have the funds. Explain to Thomann in an email and advise them you will pay when funds are available. Save the money up over a few months and pay them.

 

All of which I have done, and they have ignored. Which is why I'm here asking for help :)

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Unreasonable in having goods for 4 months and then having a problem with the chasing process. Imagine if you owed a Bank £87, they would be threatening allsorts, with constant letters and phone calls, with daily charges and interest added.

 

The positive point to make is that the debt amount is not increasing and they are not sending doorstep collectors to your house. It is a case of advising Thomann of your situation and advising that you will look to pay them within say the next 3 months.


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Imagine if you owed a Bank £87, they would be threatening allsorts, with constant letters and phone calls, with daily charges and interest added.

 

EXACTLY! :madgrin:

I would have been made aware that there was an outstanding debt much sooner than 4 months down the line! I could have been paying back £23 a month and the debt would be completely cleared by now!

 

I would completely agree with the 'unreasonable', had I been aware of a debt for the last 4 months! I think I am completely reasonable to have a problem with the chasing process when the process is; Do nothing for 4 months (not even check that the single informative message had been received), then expect full payment on the day of first follow up correspondence!

 

So if that's what you found unreasonable about my frustration, I guess we just have very different standards of reasonable.. But thankyou for your input :)

Edited by wotnwhy

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I try to look at these frustrations a bit differently, because otherwise i might start to get angry over something that is not important in the big scheme of things.

 

Even if Thomann have poor admin, by the time you pay in 3 months time, you will have enjoyed having the goods for 7 months, at no extra cost. Because they are based in Germany and you don't have interest/charges being added, plus real debt collection activity, then it is just hassle of dealing with emails.


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Again I agree with everything you say... And you're not really saying anything different to your previous replies, which I've expressed that I agree with. Not sure what your point is?

 

by the time you pay in 3 months time, you will have..

 

You seem to keep making the basic assumption that this ^ is a given. But they have ignored my responses and offer to do this, so....?

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There is no magic solution e.g European consumer law on your side here. If there was and i was aware of it, then i would have responded in detail.

 

Your gripe seems to be that they should have waited for payment to clear, before sending the goods or when the payment failed they should have asked for immediate return of goods or payment.

 

But the goods were sent to you as ordered and they have been opened/used. So it is now up to you when you pay them. Look at the original order to see what it says about payment terms. Usually, where goods are sent without payment, most companies expect the invoice to be settled within 1 month. It is now 4 months on and they are chasing for the outstanding payment. Tell Thomann of your problems and when you expect to be able to pay them. Stick to it and ignore communication, unless it is a court claim ( unlikely).


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I agree, you ordered the goods.

That creates a contract and a liability on your part to pay for them.

 

 

If you couldnt afford the item why did you order it in the first place?

Saying they shouldnt have sent the goods isnt actually a good legal argument.

 

 

If you are that broke send the item back and explain that you are too arrogant and too ignorant to ever consider that contract law could possibly apply to you and you hope they dont mind you having its free use for the last 4 months.

Really.

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You seem to keep making the basic assumption that this ^ is a given. But they have ignored my responses and offer to do this, so....?

 

You seem to be awaiting their permission to repay them in installments.

 

In effect, they have allowed you extra time to pay. They now want it all in one lump sum.

You can't do that due to your financial situation.

 

 

Stop getting annoyed with their debt collection process, which isn't unfair bearing in mind they don't know your specific circumstances.

After all, they did send you an e-mail, and it isn't their fault you didn't read it.

 

Your complaint is that they didn't tell you straight away, when you might have been more able to pay it off? (Yet, they had emailed you.....)

Something was already going wrong (why was it your Paypal payment didn't go through.......)

 

If they had instead, at 1 month late, demanded the whole sum and sent it to debt recovery (as they would have been entitled to do), you might have been less aggrieved, but others might complain instead that they were acting too quickly. It seems they are damned if they do, damned if they don't, when actually the problem isn't their good nature in sending out the goods when the Paypal payment failed, the problem is your financial woes and you not reading your emails!.

 

However, "you are where you are", and need to deal with the situation.

So, just ignore their debt collection activity, and send them a letter saying "I understand how this has arisen, but due to my changed financial circumstances all I can do is repay it in x installments. The first installment has been paid."

 

 

"I shall continue to repay according to what I am able, but repaying you direct.

I will continue to ignore any debt collection agency, and will not pay any charges they add, just pay you the amount owed, in x installments".

 

Additionally, don't get cranky if, in future, if you order something and the payment fails, they don't go out of their way to be pleasant and send it out to you anyway, advising you of the failed payment in e-mail.

Be careful what you wish for.

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