Parking dilemma

[perplexedofdorset]

Sorry EB but its gone.

 

So stressed at the mo..... not specifically over this but OH has decided to start decorating the living room......

Everything that was in there is now in the limited everywhere else we have !!!

 

Thanks for all your help guys .... I, no doubt, will be back on here sometime soon for more advice and courage!

 

Well today (29th April) we have finally received a reply from the HA regarding the parking issue.

 

Apparently a new person has been assigned to this and her tone (from a neighbour who has spoken to both of the ladies that have so far been involved) is far less friendly!

 

Here is the letter, verbatim and with original errors! (Obviously wasn't too careful with the cut n paste!)....

 

28th April 2017

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

 

Re **** Residents Car Park

 

As you are aware we have been recently consulted with all residents of **** and (our terrace) regarding the car park following reports that residents are struggling to park.

 

In light of the possible impact to residents once parking permits have been introduced, we have decided to extend the consultation period to Monday 8th May 2017. This is your final opportunity to have your say or provide required information previously requested.

 

Please be aware that if I do not receive any evidence from you that you confirming that you have a legal right to park within the car park of **** by the extended above date I will be unable to include within the proposed car parking permit scheme.

 

Should you have any questions regarding this matter please do not hesitate to contact me on (HA phone number)

 

Yours sincerely

 

Apart from the shocking construction of the letter and the scant extension of the consultation period, it seems she has not acknowledged our letter (sent 29th March) regarding our easement to park.

 

Naturally we are very upset about this, not least because there are always vacant spaces within the car park, even at 6 am on a Sunday or bank holiday morning when you would expect the car park to be at maximum capacity.

 

Please, please can you advise me how to respond to this ???

 

Thank you,

POD

[ericsbrother]

the respond by saying you have an easement and that this is superior to any parking permit scheme.

 

 

It requires no documentation.

Should the HA then harass you over this issue you will be inclined to seek an injunction against them and seek suitable damages for the same.

 

Send a copy to the head of the trustees of the HA personally so it doesnt get intercepted.

 

Also,

take photographs of the car park,

esp where you park at various times of day and different days of the week to show exactly how busy it is.

 

 

Send these to the head of the trustees as well, not to this minion.

[perplexedofdorset]

Thank you EB,

 

My OH says that as the HA houses and car park (Built in 1998-99) wasn't built 20 years ago and an easement requires 20 years of continuous use, no easement exists.

 

????

[stu007]

Had another read of your thread just to be sure before asking this, in post#26 the HA extended the consultation!!!

 

Were you and those affected actually given any notice by the HA about the Consultation on introduction of parking permits from the start and what was its actual end/closed date to be?

 

Practice guide 62: easements: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/easements/practice-guide-62-easements

[perplexedofdorset]

For some bizarre reason I cannot find the original letter at the moment but will be able to get my hands on a copy later today.

 

I do remember a panic as the letter arrived mid March with a deadline of 30th March and I hand delivered our response on the Friday 28th ...

just under the wire.

 

That first letter was the first that anybody in the terrace had heard of it.

 

Thanks for the link, I shall show it to my husband but I'm afraid I cannot read legalese, I get lost amongst all the whys and wherefores and thereins.

 

Will reply with a transcript of the original letter later on (hopefully)

[unclebulgaria67]

What i don't quite understand in this talk about easements, is why it should be necessary to prove this ?

 

If you have lived in a house for a period with free parking nearby, i would be looking at freehold, lease or tenancy to see what it says. Can a Housing Association just find an excuse to change parking, with a view to no doubt obtaining future revenues ? Surely it is up to the HA to look into all of this at their cost ? What information does the HA have about the legal status of the land ?

[perplexedofdorset]

What I find incredible...apart from the very short time frame they leave us to do anything in, is that the second letter was a generic to the householder letter that went to everyone. No recognition or response to us or our letter delivered in March!

[ericsbrother]

yet again I have to point out that the previous occupants had enjoyment of the place before the houses were built

so the 20 continuous enjoyment is there but not necessarily easy to show.

 

 

You may need statements from the previous owner of your property or maybe an aerial photograph.

The OS has a stock of them for their map making..

 

 

If there was a public footpath there that easement wouldnt disappear because someone illegally bult a house on it.

It is not the HA that has created this easement but your property's occupiers.

 

Thank you EB,

 

My OH says that as the HA houses and car park (Built in 1998-99) wasn't built 20 years ago and an easement requires 20 years of continuous use, no easement exists.

 

????

[ericsbrother]

the Lnad registry says it doesnt have a list of all the easements because no-one needed to tell them about their existence until 2002.

 

 

Your type is older than that but can be registered by filling out a form.

there is no compulsion to do this.

so leave it for the moment.

 

 

as said right at the beginning,

if they enter into an agreement with you and the other terrace dwellers the easement can be extinguished

but the key word here is agreement.

they cant ever tell you what is what.

[perplexedofdorset]

I think we are on the losing team here.

 

The previous owner died in 2006 at the age of 93, leaving the house to be developed and sold to us.

She lived here all her life.

 

I think that it has already been decided that they are going to issue permits and fine peeps who park here without...

so what happens for visitors, doctors, heath visitors, delivery men !!

 

This is pants and Im at the end of my tether...stuff like this stresses me out (Doesn't it Uncle B?)!

 

They are not going to listen to us because they want what they want and we get in their way.

We do not have money for solicitors and the like and don't have legal knowledge or speak in our armoury.

 

Why do they give so little time to respond?

Why have they not acknowledged our letter?

 

Sorry, really down now

[perplexedofdorset]

OK here is a verbatim transcript of the first letter received on 10th March....

 

Dear Sir or Madam

 

RE *** Residents Car Park

 

I have recently been receiving many complaints from residents of **** regarding the lack of parking mainly of an evening within the car park.

 

In order to try and resolve the issue I am considering implementing parking permits to residents. I have found a company that will issue permits free of charge to residents of **** only and then monitor the car park for people using it and not displaying a valid permit.

 

I have previously requested information from my legal team to check whether there is anything within the deeds of the properties situated in (our Terrace) confirming whether you have any parking rights to this car park. They have been unable to locate such information.

 

In light of this it would appear that residents of (our terrace) do not have any parking rights situated at ***. However, following on from a discussion with a resident of (our terrace) I believe some of you may have a right to park.

 

In order that I may assess this I would be grateful if you are able to provide me with any evidence that confirms you have a right to park within the car park. I would be grateful if you could provide me with any relevant information by no later than 1st April 2017/ Please find the pre-paid envelope for the convenience of your reply.

 

If this is the case then I will include you within the proposed permit scheme.

 

I look forward to receiving your feedback. Should you have any questions regarding this matter please do not hesitate to contact me on .....

 

 

This was sent to all the houses within the terrace.

 

As I have said we responded, hand delivered on 28th March but the next letter, received a few days ag,o is still addressed to the occupier and makes no mention of our reply.

 

The second letter was sent be a different person, although still a neighbourhood housing officer.

[perplexedofdorset]

We have constructed a letter........

 

5th May 2017

 

FAO Miss ***

Neighbourhood Housing Officer

 

RE *** *** CAR PARK

 

Dear Miss *****

 

We refer to your letter of 28th April 2017.

 

We responded to the original enquiry from your colleague Miss **** confirming our right to park on 28th March 2017.

The letter was hand delivered to your offices at ***********. We have received neither an acknowledgement or response.

 

We consider that (HA) are mistaken in the assumption that residents of (Our terrace)

have no right to park there, and assert that the onus is on (HA) to prove why we do

not have a right to park there.

 

You refer to a consultation period. There has not been a consultation period.

You have sent letters asking for information by a certain date. Consultation implies dialogue and consideration of options.

You have addressed letters to the owners / occupiers at each address, but you have no

idea if the property owners have, in fact, received your communications and therefore have been

consulted. A number of the properties in ( Our terrace) are not owner occupied.

 

We question how many spaces each resident of **** **** has a right to use. 2 spaces per property is generally accepted as sufficient.

*** *** has 16 houses and 42 parking spaces. We have requested from (Our council) the original planning documents and Section 106 agreement to allow us to understand why so many parking spaces were included in the scheme. You should wait until we have had an opportunity to examine them before considering any “consultation period” closed.

 

Have (HA) considered any alternatives? Given the number of spaces why do you not simply allocate 2 to each property in *** *** and issue permits to those (Our terrace) residents who want them?

 

Have (HA) considered the effects on the wider neighbourhood? If there is a parking problem in *** *** then you would simply be moving it somewhere else. The obvious place is ********, which already has a parking problem. ******** is a public road where other (HA) tenants live. You would have no control over the problem you would be creating there.

 

Are you aware of how many spaces each of your tenants use? There is a cleaning business operating from one address in *** *** that regularly has in excess of 2 sign-written vehicles in the car park.

 

You have not published details of where you envisage your proposed scheme applying. Is it the car park only? Could you please send us a drawing of the extent of the proposed scheme.

 

We have never seen the *** *** car park full. Generally there have been 5 vehicles belonging to residents of (Our Terrace) parked there.

One of these is a camper van belonging to the owners of number 4. We understand that they are in the process of constructing a driveway to accommodate the camper van. There would therefore be 4 vehicles remaining belonging to residents of (Our terrace) parked in the car park. This is not excessive. If (HA) were simply to invite us to participate in the scheme you would be pleasantly surprised at the lack of impact we would have.

 

Could you also assure us that if this scheme were to proceed (HA) would employ a reputable agent to manage the parking. Your colleague stated in her original letter that you have found a company willing to issue permits and manage them for no charge. They will obviously, therefore, be aiming to make a profit by means of their enforcement activities. This is probably something that your tenants have not considered, but should the scheme proceed it will be them and their visitors /friends who will bear the cost.

 

We remind you that as the landowner and employer of a parking enforcement company (HA) would remain liable for their actions, and we would seek redress from (HA) should they act outside of their authority.

 

In summary, (HA) proposals are a knee jerk reaction to solve a problem that does not exist.

If they are eventually implemented you would simply force a few vehicles to move and be creating a problem somewhere else.

You have not demonstrated that you have managed the ample parking provision by establishing what space your tenants have a right to use.

You should consult in a proper manner and be able to demonstrate such. You should be sure of your facts before you write to people and not put the onus onto others to do the work for you.

 

We look forwards to hearing from you at your earliest convenience.

Yours Faithfully

[stu007]

some things to consider asking as well:

 

1. From what period were the Residents Complaints made about the Parking Issue?

 

2. How many Residents made Complaints of the Parking Issue?

 

3. As these Residents Complaints must have followed the HA complaints procedure and were fully investigated, then why is the first knowledge of this issue to the Residents (of terrace) your consultation letter dated XX/XX/XXXX? (I would like to request a copy of your Complaints Procedure/Policy & Consultation Policy)

 

4. What date did the HA Board approve this Consultation on Parking Permits?

 

5. What Risk Assessment has the HA carried out? (I would like to request a copy).

 

Also tell them that the Resident (of terrace) require the HA to arrange a proper meeting for those residents to have their concerns heard.

 

 

 

Also check the HA website to see if they have introduced parking permit scheme in any other areas.

Edited May 5, 2017 by stu007

[perplexedofdorset]

Thanks for that...After your last point I googled the HA and parking permits in our town and came up with some minutes of a local council meeting in September where it was recorded that (and I quote)

 

the HA will set up a permit scheme in *** Court (a block of sheltered housing in the middle of the town) and that any surplus permits after residents have been given theirs will probably be put to the public, however they are still deciding on it. Cllr *** asked for further details that Cllr !!! could not provide at this point

 

 

But that was the only entry.

 

Their website has a lot of guff about ethics, caring for people etc but if you actually want to see/read anything you have to have a residents number and password.

 

As I mentioned at the beginning of this thread the HA had recently changed their name or have been taken over and as the previous HA were appalling at getting anything done, this was a new broom effect.

[stu007]

Glad to be of help, as you have probably realized is this consultation has not happen overnight the HA have had internal discussions on this matter some time beforehand before it got to consultation stage.

 

You may not have access to there policies or procedures on their website but that still does not stop you requesting these either by email (ensure to get read receipt) or in writing.

 

Remember you have no knowledge of the HA Policies or Procedure so how are you meant to respond without being aware of these and whether the HA have actually followed their own Policies & Procedures. (use their own Policies & Procedures against them, did they follow them). If they refuse to give you copies of their Policies or Procedure just request it again informing them that their refusal is not them being Open & Accountable and see what they say)

 

Have a wee look at this link specifically post#4 gives you a rough idea of HA Policies: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?455222-Social-Housing-Council-Housing-Housing-Association-Housing-Trust-etc-Information

 

If you email or write title the letter Formal Complaint, HA hate this as its a complaint it has to be recorded as such (and the regulator on a inspection can view these)

[perplexedofdorset]

Hi there Stunumber 7, ( or is it the names Stu, Stu007 )

 

What do you think of the letter?

 

Do I need to add those extras you advised or is that for another time ?

I need to know because the ridiculously short time limit expires tomorrow (not that the woman has been working last week)

[ericsbrother]

you are again looking at the thing the wrong way round.

 

 

SHE had all of those rights and they get passed on with the house.

 

 

My suggestions were methods of proving that the HA has nothing to say at all in this matter.

 

 

Why are you being so defeatist?

you have a right,

they are trying to take it away and you are looking for reason to let them rather then telling them you arent going to give up your rights.

 

Others have suggested ways fo tying the HA up with their own red tape.

That may well get you a temporary solution so you would then need to build upon that offer to get a permanent one.

 

 

Ultimately all you want is what you have at the moment, nothing more or new.

In short, you are a resident if they want to pay that game.

 

 

I think we are on the losing team here.

 

The previous owner died in 2006 at the age of 93, leaving the house to be developed and sold to us.

She lived here all her life.

 

I think that it has already been decided that they are going to issue permits and fine peeps who park here without...

so what happens for visitors, doctors, heath visitors, delivery men !!

 

This is pants and Im at the end of my tether...stuff like this stresses me out (Doesn't it Uncle B?)!

 

They are not going to listen to us because they want what they want and we get in their way.

We do not have money for solicitors and the like and don't have legal knowledge or speak in our armoury.

 

Why do they give so little time to respond?

Why have they not acknowledged our letter?

 

Sorry, really down now

[unclebulgaria67]

Agree. Think Perplexed that you will have to look this rationally. You bought a house with parking rights. If the HA have evidence to the contrary it is up to them to prove otherwise.

 

Perhaps the local council authority department that deals with land ownership issues can help with information.

 

What about speaking to your neighbours, as they might also have concerns and don't know what to do.

[ericsbrother]

you can and should remind the HA that as the easment exists that any parking co that slaps a ticket on your car is liable to get sued for harassment and likewise the HA and that you would be seeking an injunction to stop this if necessary

You dont ask- you tell

[perplexedofdorset]

Thanks guys. The letter (as of post number 37) went into the HA offices at 9 am this morning.... and I got a receipt for it too.

 

We are talking to the other owner occupiers in the Terrace. Out of 10 houses, 5 are owner occupied, One is HA (they had to buy the end house to gain access to the land ) and the other 4 are rented out.

 

Every single person we have spoken to have responded that they have written tothe HA, unanimously stating that they have never been challenged for parking there, have parked there since the building of *** and before and they have never seen the parking area full.

 

I don't think they have a leg to stand on.

 

Apparently there is a clause in the sale agreement that says the residents of our terrace can demand that the HA build a dwarf wall with iron railings at the front of each property should they request it and if requested the HA has to get it built within a week or we can employ peeps to construct it on their behalf and at there cost.

 

If they really get arsey with us I reckon they are going to get inundated with requests for walls with extremely ornate railings!!!

[perplexedofdorset]

Sorry edit ...one MONTH after request.

 

Some new edit thing has been added to CAG that limits the time I can edit posts ??!!

[honeybee13]

Sorry edit ...one MONTH after request.

 

Some new edit thing has been added to CAG that limits the time I can edit posts ??!!

 

Hello there. Not very recently, but you can only edit posts within the first 10 minutes.

 

HB

[ericsbrother]

You are mising the point when arguing about whether the car park is full or not.

To do so deflects things away from the real point

- your rights

even if it was full to the brim that is their problem and you could still take them to court if your space was constantly occupied

 

they bought land with a problem for them and that is not your problem or your fault.

You must make sure they understand that they are not taking your rights away and you will enforce them vigourously if need be.

 

There are always lawyers who would consider a conditional fee arrangement to take this on

( no-win no-fee as commonly called)

Be looking one up just in case.

 

Thanks guys. The letter (as of post number 37) went into the HA offices at 9 am this morning.... and I got a receipt for it too.

 

We are talking to the other owner occupiers in the Terrace. Out of 10 houses, 5 are owner occupied, One is HA (they had to buy the end house to gain access to the land ) and the other 4 are rented out.

 

Every single person we have spoken to have responded that they have written tothe HA, unanimously stating that they have never been challenged for parking there, have parked there since the building of *** and before and they have never seen the parking area full.

 

I don't think they have a leg to stand on.

 

Apparently there is a clause in the sale agreement that says the residents of our terrace can demand that the HA build a dwarf wall with iron railings at the front of each property should they request it and if requested the HA has to get it built within a week or we can employ peeps to construct it on their behalf and at there cost.

 

If they really get arsey with us I reckon they are going to get inundated with requests for walls with extremely ornate railings!!!

[perplexedofdorset]

Thought I would update you briefly...

 

I returned our letter on the date due, getting a signature on receipt and since then .....

 

NOTHING!

Nada

Zero

Niente

Zilch

Bupkiss

 

This woman, who instigates such strict time restraints on our responses to her missives ... is a disgrace!

[ericsbrother]

amd have you been proactive in determining the past history of this land from the time your houses were built and getting hold of old aerial photogrpahs, 1:5000 maps etc? You want to keep a right you have to keep asserting it by parking as yopu do and showing why it is your right to do so.

waiting for them to screw you over is not a good battle strategy