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MBNA Uneforceable debt - removing default notice from CRA


PaulS43
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I'm pretty sure this can be done using the law / courts if necessary - my problem is that I don't know what laws to cite and I don't have the funds to go and see a specialist solicitor....

 

The story in brief:

 

I had a credit card with MBNA.

 

MBNA (improperly [i believe]) assigned the debt to IDEM in 2012.

 

IDEM and I fell out in 2013 - I stopped paying.

 

We went through the tos and fros of asking them to provide paperwork. They couldn't - they defaulted the debt in December 2013 and (improperly [i believe]) assigned the debt on to Arrow Global at the end of 2015.

 

Arrow Global appointed Shoosmiths solicitors to pester me ... cutting a lot of crap out,

I asked for sight of the (last) DEED of assignment citing the Pelias Construction case and Lord Denning's words about an alleged debtor having proof that the person demanding payment has the right to do so and that any payment on his (the debtor's) part would extricate himself from being in debt...

 

About a month ago, they (Shoosmiths) wrote back to me to tell me that they cannot provide any documentation at this point and will be discontinuing all collection activity forthwith.

 

I have since called Shoosmiths to ask whether their client is going to remove the default notice from my CRA file as they know they can't enforce the debt (don't have the paperwork).

 

 

Cutting to the quick I was told that they believe I owe them the money but just can't prove it and as a result they feel they "have the right to protect other lenders from me"....

 

Clearly leaving default notices littered over my CRA file is very unfair.

I feel like I am facing the consequences (at least in part) and treated as though guilty.

Arrow Global are not a court - nor are Shoosmiths.

 

If they cannot or will not proceed to court as I have been threatened so often where the question of who owes what to whom could have been addressed and properly adjudicated,

HOW DO I GO ABOUT INSISTING THEY REMOVE THE DEFAULT NOTICE?

 

What law(s) can I cite in any letter demanding this be removed / suppressed until proof does come to hand and / or who do I write to in their place and /

 

 

or how do I get a court order for its removal and if I set about taking them to court,

does the onus of "proof" then fall back on me?

 

Any help would be appreciated.

FWIW I know that this will have to fall off the end anyway in a couple of years or so

- but in the meanwhile, we'd like to move house and having this mark there is preventing us from being able to effectively transfer our mortgage.

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Hi Paul

 

But irrespective of the above...did you default with MBNA and is the default date recorded correctly on your CRAs

 

You state " they " defaulted you December 2013....who are " they "?

 

Regards

 

Andy

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The default was added by IDEM servicing in December 2013.

 

Edited to add that when I received another NOTICE of assignment from IDEM to Arrow, the default disappeared for 2 months (Jan and Feb last year); then it came back as showing money owed to Arrow.

Edited by PaulS43
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But did you default the agreement whilst with the original creditor MBNA?

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No.

I came to an arrangement in 2006 with MBNA in which MBNA said that at any point in the future, I would be able to settle for 40% of the by then outstanding balance

(eg at the 'settlement point' - 4 grand outstanding would be 16 hundred, 3 grand would mean settled for 12 hundred, 2 grand left would mean settled for 800).

 

 

When the 40% figure came within striking distance,

IDEM told me that they wouldn't have to honour that

- so I stopped paying in May 2013

- they defaulted it in December 2013.

 

 

Interesting may be that I never cancelled my standing order to MBNA and continued to pay them (MBNA) until May 13.

I have never directly paid IDEM a penny.

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So if you came to an arrangement in 2006 then you must have breached the agreement...otherwise there would be no need for an agreement.The fact is that MBNA may not have issued a Default Notice or informed the credit reference agencies of the default...at the time of default....but did so after assignment through IDEM

 

hence the reason they assigned the debt...

 

You state that the debt was not assigned correctly ..could you expand as to why you feel this Paul and what evidence you have to back this up?

We could do with some help from you.

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I am at work so can't answer fully until later

 

when IDEM said that they don't have to honour previous agreements,

I asked about the PPI

- they said that this was nothing to do with them and referred me back to MBNA...

 

 

. MBNA gave me all my PPI premiums back at the end of 2013 themselves

- around 18 months after they'd "assigned the agreement, lock stock & barrel"

- I asked to see the DEED of assignment.

 

 

Nothing happened - then they sold it on.

 

 

The more I've read on these forums, the more I realise that they did not comply with the law so many times.

Shoosmiths referred to the Deed by name but said I wasn't entitled to see it (before I quoted the Pelias case)...

then it goes quiet, then they decline.

 

 

We all know that there was never a wet inked signed by 2 members of MBNA's along with another wet inked signed by 2 members of IDEM's boards' DEEDS of assignments.

 

 

If this was sold lock, stock and barrel, MBNA would not have had to deal with the PPI claim, IDEM would

- they also unequivically have to deal with honouring the 40% offer made to me in 2006, would they not?

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Well your never going to get or see the deed of assignment..only a Judge an order the disclosure...not that that would tell you much..its just the financial details of the sale.

 

The Notice of Assignment is more applicable to consumers and disputes..because that tells you if the debt has been legally assigned.

 

But assignments are irrelevant really unless you are taken to court for the debt.....thats the only time it comes into play.

 

PPI is dealt with by the original creditor not the assignee's.

We could do with some help from you.

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Well your never going to get or see the deed of assignment..only a Judge an order the disclosure...not that that would tell you much..its just the financial details of the sale.

 

The Notice of Assignment is more applicable to consumers and disputes..because that tells you if the debt has been legally assigned.

 

But assignments are irrelevant really unless you are taken to court for the debt.....thats the only time it comes into play.

 

PPI is dealt with by the original creditor not the assignee's.

 

The right to see the DEED of assignment listing what part(s) of any agreement has been transferred is covered by the Pelias case:

Lord Denning states in the Pelias Construction Case (Van Lynn Developments v Pelias Construction Co Ltd 1968 [3] All ER 824) where he said the debtor is entitled to "view the sale agreement to ensure that the assignee can give him good discharge under the contract."

 

Reciprocally, the OBLIGATIONS under a contract MAY also be assigned

- which is another reason why the other party (in my case with MBNA that would be ME) is entitled to see who is responsible for honouring any claims from Payment Protection Insurance

- all of this is or shall I say should be covered by the DEED of assignment.

 

A notice of assignment is just to say a DEED has been created

- think of it like the announcement that Miss Smith has married Mr Jones at the local church

- that is the NOTICE of the marriage

- but the thing that indeed PROVES Mr & Mrs Jones are indeed married is that marriage certificate and NOT the cutting from the newspaper.

 

... Or are you going to tell me that when Mr Jones pops his clogs 45 years down the line, his insurance company are going to pay out when she presents the newspaper cutting ???????

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Thats a Notice of Assignemnt ...not Deed.

 

"Fortunately help was provided by the later Court of Appeal decision of Van Lynn Developments Limited v Pelias Construction [1969] 1QB607 which effectively ruled that a Notice of Assignment did not need to specify the date of the assignment itself. In an environment governed by mandatory prescribed forms and notices, the principle that difficulties can be avoided by omitting information will be well received. Even better, from a debt purchasers’ point of view, was the ruling that an error in the Notice (wrongly advising that an earlier Notice of Assignment had been given) was not fatal. The statement by the Court “...... and that its validity cannot be destroyed by the inaccurate statement in the second sentence of that paragraph” perhaps indicated a willingness to then adopt a “de minimis” principle which creditors no doubt wish could have been subsequently more broadly applied by the courts on issues regarding document compliance."

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I still need tips on how I can force Arrow Global to take down the default notice.

If they were to take me to court, the action would fail and as such it would HAVE TO be removed

- as it stands, this is like a score draw.

 

Sure, I don't have to pay what's outstanding but I get punished as though I am entirely guilty

- which I would vehemently protest I'm not,

 

BTW. Had IDEM honoured the agreement I reached with MBNA back in 2006,

I'd have paid the agreed short settlement in 2013 rather than nothing at all....

 

Any suggestions? Anyone?

 

Edited to add: I don't care what they bucket shop sold it for

- and they could produce a photocopy of the document and redact those numbers..

 

. I want to know exactly what rights and obligations they sold to IDEM and in turn exactly what rights and obligations were sold to Arrow Global

- only the DEED of assignment contains those details

- and from what I've read, I would assert I have a right to know.

 

Nothing to fear, nothing to hide ? Produce the deed.

 

I did say I would ask for the document at court (if it got there)

- Shoosmiths did after all refer to it and stated that it exists.

.. They certainly didn't want me to see it though.

 

The long and short of all of it is that the money lending brigade (I mean the entire industry) and their cronies are generally corrupt.

 

They lie, subvert, cheat for greed.

 

They will say anything for a few quid.

I am terribly disappointed in them and their antics.

Edited by PaulS43
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Paul whilst I fully agree with your sentiments...I think you need to spend a bit more time here on CAG and learn the process on how to deal with this.

 

Forget the Deed of Assignment as they are a completely different document in cases of debt assignment as opposed to the above example.....concentrate on the Notice of Assignment.

 

Have you ever sent a CCA request to Arrow for a copy of your agreement ?...if not send one and if they fail to comply within 12+2 days......Deeds an Notices become irrelevant as they cant enforce the debt anyway.

 

With regards to default markers...as per my initial post..as you defaulted with MBNA that default will remain on your credit file until its 6th anniversary ...irrespective of who owns what.

We could do with some help from you.

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might be worthy to send MBNA an sar too.

 

 

its surprising what that can reveal

esp upon how much of the default notice stated sum were unlawful penalty charges

over late etc etc.

if there was a 40% discount flying around all those years ago me thinks that's a good pointer.

though what puzzles me id why following the third payment under 'the arrangement' they didn't default you then

it might be worthy to investigate that.

 

 

if the default date was moved to then, it would now not show of your credit file..end of your issues.

 

 

that might be a route to getting something moving

though trying to understand the hard facts whilst dodging the FMOTL rhetoric

is a bit difficult paul.

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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I've just had a look at Noddle which gives the date of default as 13/11/13

- so irrespective of what I say or so I'm lumbered with it until December 2019??

And then like the tracks on a tank it will just roll off the end and disappear?

 

 

10+12+11 months from now and nothing I can do about it

- except add the counter statement that the CRAs likely won't publish anyway? Risible.

 

But let's look at it another way

- while they're effectively stopping me from getting credit somewhere else, they're doing me a favour.

 

 

I am not stupid enough to want or need a pay-day loan @ 800%+ in interest.

FWIW, I put aside 17½% of every single pound I earn and save it in a pot.

 

 

I haven't paid interest on any debt since around 2010 because I can now manage my affairs properly.

And FWIW, when I had that financial meltdown in 2006 and approached all my creditors and made arrangements, some behaved in the way I'd been taught

- but it has to be said 35 phone calls a week from HBOS, being told to borrow money from my family,

being told by some creditors that they were more entitled and should be paid more or preferably to others,

being told NOT to pay the insurance premium on the car which was getting me to work

but to give that £200 to them one month!!!!

Grade A bags are the vast majority of them.

 

 

I was offered a deal when I was in trouble and had done the right thing which I kept to

- but after MBNA "sold the debt" to IDEM and IDEM refused to honour what had been agreed to,

 

 

they told me that they could not be bound by previous agreements I'd reached with MBNA

- so I stopped paying BECAUSE THEY WOULD NOT HONOUR THEIR OBLIGATIONS UNDER THE ASSIGNMENT THEY STATED THEY HAD..... AND THEN THEY SAID THAT I'M NOT ALLOWED TO SEE IT !!!!

 

And I'm defamed in a public forum with no right to redress or complain about it ???????

 

Spiteful unprofessional - we are only where we are because they think that only plebs like me have to honour agreements and follow rules as laid down in law -

it obviously doesn't apply to them, does it?

More lies on lies upon lies.

 

If I didn't want to move home,

I wouldn't give two monkeys what they were to write about me

but I think that I am being disproportionately punished for

A their own failure to honour what was said to me about settling this way back in 2006

AND in light of that 'oversight' on their part, failing to actually do things according to the law and / or keep proper records!!!!!

 

I am steaming angry!

I really did want to ask in court (pre-empting a loss on my part or not)

what makes them think that giving back all the PPI premiums they'd helped themselves to without my signature on my credit card account after compounding the above with keeping very quiet and not inviting any claims when I did have financial difficulty and couldn't pay absolves them from fraud, perhaps???

 

 

Some game that, "we'll just help ourselves to PPI on top too".... "Oh ****, we'll just give the money back then".

 

I really am angry. REALLY. Integrity in the banking industry? Risible. Risible.

Edited by PaulS43
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well if you keep having stream out your head you'll get nowhere

 

you've been advised what to do in post 14

 

your call.

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Were / Are MBNA allowed to 'default' the account in December 2013 AFTER they'd assigned it, supposedly 'lock,stock & barrel' in the autumn of 2012.

 

 

Surely they'd have given up the right to be able to do this once they'd ("assigned") sold the debt on

 

 

Or did they only say that they did but didn't / couldn't.

 

 

And the rule is onlt MBNA could add this notice??

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idem were only collecting for MBNA they didn't own it

until MBNA sold the debt in dec 2013

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Share on other sites

{SNIP}

Have you ever sent a CCA request to Arrow for a copy of your agreement ?...if not send one and if they fail to comply within 12+2 days......Deeds an Notices become irrelevant as they cant enforce the debt anyway.

{snip}

 

I have continually asked for colour photocopies of the agreement so that we can all have a view on who may have ticked the PPI-yes-please box.

 

 

I've told all of them that I wish to examine this and if the colour of the ink of my signature is different from the colour of the ink that box was ticked in,

I might make a complaint to the police about fraud if it were ticked in a different colour.

 

 

Of course, a black inked signature and a black tick (for example) doesn't prove they didn't tick it either - but when I lost my job in 2006 and rang to tell them with my world falling around me, AMAZING how no one mentioned they'd been taking PPI and I might be able to claim.

 

 

Also astounding how they just gave me all the PPI money back to me as soon as I began asking about the PPI problem.

 

 

And although I have had lots of monochrome (black toner or white paper) copies of my agreement, no one has been apparently able to find a colour photocopier.

These are not smudged, poor quality photocopies.

 

 

They may have come from microfiche but I'm not so sure (but if that is true - they don't have the original) OR someone doesn't want me to see a tick in a different coloured ink.

 

I agree, BTW, I need to save the steam and get educated some more.

 

 

Just so you all know, I paid what I agreed,

week in - week out WITHOUT FAIL (not monthly, weekly) for more than 6 years without a break.

 

I can produce bank statements to prove the veracity of the above.

I can produce a colour scan of the cheque / letter of the PPI refund of the above,

I can produce their own system's references on 3 pages of the subject access request I was sent in 2013 by MBNA after Idem told me that no such offer was ever made to me.

 

Nothing to hide?

Who ticked the PPI box and entered me into a contract for insurance where I was never offered the benefit of any protection it might have offered?

Where is the colour copy of the agreement????

I have 4 or 5 black & white ones.

 

Curious how me saying Let's go to court and we can examine this in front of the judge along with how and when the debt was assigned and assigned again and what obligations are apportioned to whom has brought up "no documentation"...

 

I am not the only bloke this sort of thing has happened to, am I?

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