TPS/BW ANPR PCN - Company Car - Brighton Road Retail Park, Redhill, RH1 6QL ***Statute Barred***

[darrenham]

Hi all,

 

Fairly straight forward I'd imagine, from the text in question 2, but I thought I'd check with you guys for some actual wording for my appeal.

 

For info: Company Car, and to make matters worse, I'm leaving said company on the 24th Feb and they'll take any outstanding fines from my pay.

 

1 Date of the infringement: 18/01/2017

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date]: 06/02/2017

 

3 Date received: 10/02/2017

 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? Yes

 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? Yes, car entering and leaving, but not enough detail to read the reg,

 

6 Have you appealed? Not yet, wanted to take the right tack.

 

7 Who is the parking company? Total Parking Solutions (TPS UK)

 

8. Where exactly Brighton Road Retail Park, Redhill, RH1 6QL

[ericsbrother]

OK,

the date you give as receiving the NTK,

was that with the co or the date they passed on the letter?

 

 

It will have been sent out too late for keeper liability anyway but the thick greedy hits dont care about the law, they want money.

 

 

The rest will depend on your employers attitude to all of this,

they dont ahve to pay and they dont ahve to name you as driver

but the parking co may try their luck if your co doesnt refute the claim with some strength.

 

 

As for stopping the money from your pay,

tell them that it is not a fine but an unlawful remand

and as such any deduction from your wages can be considered as an unlawful deduction and that gives you the right to take them to a court or Employment Tribunal to recover the monies.

 

 

Now no-one would want to start that fight so try and get your boss to look at this thread and hopefully they will see that it is not what it seems and they can bat this away.

 

 

as a company they are in a very strong position to get a full costs recovery order should TPS start a legal fight and that will be worth letting TPS know that no prisoners will be taken.

 

If the car park is near to you get some pictures of the signage as I bet that is flawed as well,

 

 

we would like to see the NTK as I bet we can pick more holes in that anyway.

Let your boss know that we will be pleased to offer our advice on this matter should they iwsh to take it on.

 

Their alternative is to name you as the driver and you can then fight it.

Once you have been named then TPS have no reason to contact your company again

 

 

We wll then fight the claim based on the signage and what they say is the event that caused you to owe them money.

 

 

they often get that wrong from the outset and there are loads of other reasons as to why their claim doesnt add up

[darrenham]

I've been told by work to fight it or pay it.

Done it in the past and fought and won.

I guess I'd just have to name myself as the driver, which I'm happy to do.

 

Unfortunately the car park is nowhere near me,

but I honestly had no idea that the carpark had a time limit, so it can't have been particularly obvious....

 

I'll get a copy of the PCN marked up and posted shortly.

[darrenham]

Two pages of the PCN attached.

 

 

 

 

2017-02-06 ANPR PCN incident 2017-01-18.pdf

[ericsbrother]

Gte the company to tell TPS that you were the driver then.

They should then get no further bother nad you cab take it on from a different angle.

 

 

i'm sure that I know the place you parked,

there was no parking managemtn a couple of years ago

so it will be interesting to see their contract.

 

 

Also there are different parts of the parking that are owned by different companies

and you can drive through from one to another.

 

 

That makes me wonder if you parked on land they manage at all.

 

 

I will trya nd see what google streetview tells me but it is something to consider as there must be 3 landlords ther and I would question their rights to claim that you had a contract at all.

[darrenham]

I'll await your research! Thanks.

 

I visited Halfords, went in and out via the two Halfords entrances if that's of any use?

 

Can I tell them I was driving? My company are just weird and may not want to get involved.

[ericsbrother]

well, you obviously have to tell them you were driving ( actually you co has to tell them but that is by the by) or they will continue to harass the Co. However, give us a chance to have a look at the lie of the land first.

the big sign at the entrance just says customer parking only and there are no other conditions that can form a contract on that sign so it is an invitation to treat at most.

The other signs scattered about the site may well offer a contract but you dont actually have to accept them as you have taken the main sign at its word and you were a customer and that is that.

It used to be the case that you could cut through the side of the car park to Jewsons and the car dealership to the left hand side as you view it from the road but the satellite isnt clear on that point

perhaps anyone going through Redhill can let us know whether a car can still pass between this car park and the ones on the industrial estate on Reading Arch Rd.

The other thing you can do is if you were there on business all of this time is to contact Halfords and complain bitterly about being taxed to spend your money with them and ask them to get the demand cancelled.

Find out a suitable address to write to, if you email they will just forward the email to TPS who will tell them the matter has been dealt with (and tell you your appeal has failed so pay up).

in the long run the signage isnt good enough to create a contract but you will have to get some decent pictures af the sign at the entrance and also of the other signs as they are claiming an overstay so we need to see exactly what those signs say.

[darrenham]

My company won't tell them that I was driving as they don't have on/off-hire documents... Not really sure what that means, but they're pretty adamant. I know what will happen if this isn't resolved is they'll pay it and deduct me.

 

I'll drop TPS a line to tell them I was the driver and that I'm preparing an appeal.

 

I have no way of getting down there to get pictures of the signage unfortunately.

 

I wasn't there on business, but I was spending money in Halfords, they then closed for the day, and I went somewhere to eat. I genuinely had no idea that the car-park had a time limit.

[dx100uk]

they cant pay them

they have no contract with the PPC only the driver has

[Oddfellow]

POFA Sch4 9(2)e requires the NTK to "invite" the keeper to cough up or name the driver. So they can pay, but whether that then allows them to dock OP's pay is less clear.

[darrenham]

I'm sure it's a term in my contract.

[Oddfellow]

The problem with that is that you can't defend the claim.

If the PPC DOES know the identity and service address of the driver (which may be you), there is absolutely NO keeper liability.

That sets you as the defendant, and you can then choose to defend any subsequent claim in court should you choose not to pay.

Just gotta stop your employer from paying in the meantime.

[darrenham]

I've just emailed TPS and told them I was driving the vehicle, which should do just that.

[Oddfellow]

There will be people on here who will tell you that emailing them is a mistake, as it gives them another route by which to hassle you!

Probably best to put a letter in the post to them as well, so they can't deny that you gave them that information.

Don't forget to give them your current (postal) address for service, or they can still go after the keeper.

[dx100uk]

I'm sure it's a term in my contract.

 

I will suspect your contract says parking fines

These are not legal court fines they are an invoice

[ericsbrother]

It was a mistake for 2 reasons, the first one being that you have now given them a method of harassing you for free for ever and the second one is that they are obliged to write to you withion a certain time limit under the POFA or they lose the right to claim a bean. By contacting them too soon you have negated the protection of the law you would have otherwise had.

 

Always make them do the running.If the company didnt send their paperwork back in time it is not your fault so the argument would have been between the aprking co and the keeper and the parking co would have lost because again no adherence to POFA so no liability.

 

Shame your boss didnt read this post, did you invite him to as suggested?

Edited February 22, 2017 by honeybee13
Paras

[darrenham]

As I've said,

my company would just have paid it to shut them up and then taken it out of my pay in hand.

 

 

They say they don't have the supporting documentation

the paperwork requires to refer to a driver

(it asks for a signed copy of the hire-lease agreement and the statement of liability associated with the driver),

and wouldn't listen to any argument as to the legality of the charge.

 

My contract states fines, and any excess parking charges.

And let's be honest, even if it didn't, I wouldn't have the time/inclination to take them to court to claim back £70.

 

I had to make a decision before today or they would have paid it.

 

How do you suggest I proceed from here?

[ericsbrother]

are you up to challenge this bearing in mind it wont be a quick resolution.

 

 

they are just greedy so wont listen to reason so you have to force them into giving up chasing you or them risking losing a court claim

( they will lose a properly defended claim and you have good reasosn to defend).

 

I would fight but I am not you, we advise on how to do things but cabnt decide what to do for you.

[darrenham]

Oh yes, I just needed to stop my company from paying it first thing on Monday morning once I've gone.

 

Happy to go with your guidance from here on, and very much appreciate it.

[darrenham]

Mission accomplished thus far, they have emailed me and given me 14 days to make my appeal.

Uhm... Help?

[ericsbrother]

emailed you?

 

Why on earth did you give them a free harass me pass?

 

Block their email and make sure they get it bounced back as spam.

 

If you had read a number of other peoples topics you would have seen this screaming out at you.

 

You cannot act in isolation, sharing is knowing, knowledge is power.

 

NO PHONE CALLS, NO EMAILS, PROPER LETTER ONLY. Make them spend their money.

[darrenham]

Apologies for the delay, I didn't get email notification.

 

I mentioned I had emailed in post 16.

 

As you say, an email can be spam filtered. I'll do all by letter from now though, I was just in a rush to ensure it was accepted before I left my old company so they didn't deduct from my final pay.

 

Should I just wait for the next email before any further action? Thus far I've just had the one...

[ericsbrother]

No, you should have read what I said after I told you off for emailing in the first place. You block their email and make sure it is bounced back . They will be writing to you if they want to continue, dont inivte them to harass you.

[darrenham]

I've not emailed them since the first email. They haven't replied any further by email.

 

I have however received two letters (no emails), the latest is attached.

TPS Final Demand.pdf

[ericsbrother]

well,

they cant legally add debt recovery charges but anyone who pays up would be unlikely to be aware of this.

 

 

likewise the threat of further costs for passing it to the next desk in their portakabin.

 

They all seem to miss the point about claiming keeper liability,

the laibility is only for the amount claimed,

 

 

any other amount added is not lawful

because no contract exists between the keeper and the company

 

 

so the distance contracts regs apply and the kpeepr hasnt been offered a contract,

just a strict liability for a charge for a breach of contract, which is an entirely different thing.

 

 

I have no doubt that someone at the parking co knows the difference but they need to chisel the debtor otherwise they will have to pay for all these begging letters themselves.

 

 

No doubt some judge will make a Beavis type decision and decide that a breach of contract or even trespass is actually a contract after all.

 

Ignore this letter as before