Insurance issue with police

[sapphirey1966]

I agree, it is a debate on the issue and it's a good idea.

 

You are right that the industry seems to have adopted seven days as a standard – which is certainly too short. But even if the notice period was 21 days, it would still be unlawful if it was used as a basis for terminating a policy or denying loss because of some technical reason.

 

There is nothing new about the ICOBS rules. Going back hundreds of years in the common law of contract, the law has always recognised the difference between a fundamental breach of contract – breach of condition – and non-fundamental breach of contract – breach of warranty.

 

A condition of the contract is a term of the contract which goes to the heart/whole purpose of the contract and breach of which effectively undermines the contract and can deny the innocent party of essentially the entire benefit of the contract.

 

A breach of condition is a basis for saying that the contract is void.

 

A warranty is some mere technical aspects of the contract, breach of which simply produces some inconvenience but does not deprive the innocent party of the benefit of the contract.

 

This is exactly what ICOBS is doing. Nothing new – simply spelling it out for insurers who for years have managed to dodge their responsibilities simply because of technical defects and because they have been dealing with customers who have simply resign themselves because they didn't know any better to challenge the insurer.

 

It seems to me that it is absurd to allow an insurer to avoid his obligations on a fully paid-up insurance simply because of some problem which doesn't at all affect the risk. It seems to me that the correct solution is not to permit insurers to terminate or to decline policies, but rather, in the event of an accident, to withhold cover until all the technical defects have been remedied and also to withhold policy documents for the same reasons. It wouldn't be beyond the wit of the insurance industry also to come up with an electronic marker to indicate to any interested parties – including the police – that an insurance was in place but that there was a defect. This would protect everyone. It would save everyone money. And it would place pressure on the insured party to remedy the defect or face prosecution.

 

There might even be a basis for an additional offence of driving with a defective insurance.

 

Hi bankfodder, wonder if you can give me some advise. My son was pulled for having no insurance, he was driving to bank to pay his wages in so he could then set up his insurance (i know what your all thinking and yes i said same to him that he should not have been driving without insurance and if he had let me know i would have transfered some into his account so he could have got his insurance and he could have then given me the cash...but whats done is done now and i have had a right moan at him).

 

Anyway, police impounded his car and my son walked from there to his nans house and she paid the first installment on her debit card. He went to police pound later that evening (once he had paid installment for insurance and received emails regarding the said taking out of insurance) but police would not let him take his car as they said he was not emailed correct documents. He had to wait till the monday as insurance company was not available on sundays. When he got home from work he phoned the insurance to ask for the correct documents to be sent and they asked him why he wanted them ( which i felt strange as is he not entitled to correct documents relating to said insurance). He replied that he needed them to get his car out of the police pound and the representative said "you did not tell us that your car was in a police pound" my son answered all the questions correctly when taking out the insurance and was not asked anything that would lead to him stating his car was in a police pound otherwise he would have said, as obviously when asked why he wanted the documents he said the reason why so was not hiding anything.

 

The rep said that he would have to call the underwriters and would call my son back. But my son had to call them back as it was getting later and he had not heard nothing and everyday his car was in the pound the bill was going up so obviously wanted it out asap. They then told him that the underwriters had cancelled the insurance as he had not stated the car was in pound. After a bit of arguing my son gave in and said about getting his money back due to the insurance being cancelled and he was told that they would have to find out from the underwriters and again would call him back. The next day my son still had not heard from them so calked again. To cut a long story short he has still not got anywhere with regards to knowing if he is deff getting money back and could not get his car out if the pound (and now the seven days are up) as he had no more money to be able to try another insurance company as he has a home and young family to support plus an ex and two children (it is because of his ex that he has no insurance as she cancelled the direct debit without him knowing which sent original insurance he had into being stopped as he didnt know it had bern until it was too late and they wouldnt re instate it unless he started it fresh. Is there any advise you can give. As now he has no car as was over 7 days since he was stopped (last saturday) and does not have the money back as yet.

[slick132]

Hi Sapphirey,

 

I've moved your post as you'd put it on an active thread that needs to remain very focused.

 

A few brief observations :-

 

1. The insurers are highly unlikely to provide YS any cover as he'd already driven the car with no insurance.

 

2. Anything paid to the potential insurer should probably be returned to his Nan as no cover was being provided.

 

3. Unless YOU are willing to insure the car yourself (costly maybe !!), the car will be crushed.

 

[colin11]

It might be better to take out a specialty daily car insurance just to get his car out of impound

 

Then once it is out, Go from there

 

http://www.quotea.co.uk/impounded-car-insurance/

 

 

https://www.tempcover.com/temporary-impounded-vehicle-insurance

[unclebulgaria67]

Hi Sapphirey,

 

I've moved your post as you'd put it on an active thread that needs to remain very focused.

 

A few brief observations :-

 

1. The insurers are highly unlikely to provide YS any cover as he'd already driven the car with no insurance.

 

2. Anything paid to the potential insurer should probably be returned to his Nan as no cover was being provided.

 

3. Unless YOU are willing to insure the car yourself (costly maybe !!), the car will be crushed.

 

 

Sorry, but i agree with this assessment.

 

I am not sure your Son advised the Insurers the car was in a Police pound, due to being caught driving without Insurance. As the Insurance was cancelled so early on, they should return most of the premium, less a cancellation admin fee. The policy might not be voided from inception because with car insurance being a legal requirement normally, they don't backdate the cancellation. It is simply cancelled on relevant date, the refund is calculated and after deducting cancellation admin fee, whatever is left is refunded.

 

Your Son might struggle obtaining Insurance in his name now, with a cancelled policy on record, as well as a pending charge for driving without Insurance. To stop the car being crushed, suggest someone else takes out Insurance and he transfers ownership on V5 registration with DVLA.

[CrappoMan]

...but police would not let him take his car as they said he was not emailed correct documents...

 

Just backing up a bit, which documents was he missing ? Was he sent a certificate of insurance by email when he purchased the policy ?

[colin11]

Just backing up a bit, which documents was he missing ? Was he sent a certificate of insurance by email when he purchased the policy ?

 

You need a specialist policy to get your car out after it has been impounded for no insurance

 

The policy he had was just a normal one, He didn't inform the new insurance company the car was inpounded

 

http://www.insurancechoice.co.uk/products/convicted-car-insurance/impounded-car-insurance/

[CrappoMan]

My own vehicle policy says I can get my own car out:

 

EXCLUSIONS - This policy does not cover

...

Use to secure the release of a motor car, other than the vehicle identified above by its registration mark, which has been seized by, or on behalf of, any government or public authority.

 

And my last 6 policies have all said the same, I've just checked.

[colin11]

My own vehicle policy says I can get my own car out:

 

 

 

And my last 6 policies have all said the same, I've just checked.

 

That is if you are insured at the time your car is impounded

 

if you have no policy when it is impounded, That changes everything

 

As you are covered by insurance, Your car is unlikely to be impounded for no insurance

[CrappoMan]

That's why I'm asking if the OP had a certificate emailed to them, and was going to ask if it had similar wording to what I stated earlier. An annual policy with that wording should be enough to release the vehicle.

 

I can find no restriction on releasing impounded vehicles, other than the policy must cover the vehicle for a mimimum of 30 days and it must state it covers impounded vehicles.

[colin11]

Take a look here

 

https://www.impoundedcarinsurance.com/faq/

[obiter dictum]

Had to get a days insurance through Aviva after getting a car at an auction to drive it home.

 

I can confirm with that days insurance there was a statement that stated

 

EXCLUSIONS - This policy does not cover

...

Use to secure the release of a motor car, other than the vehicle identified above by its registration mark, which has been seized by, or on behalf of, any government or public authority.

 

If Aviva day insurance policy has that clause, you can be sure all the other insurance companies do

[unclebulgaria67]

Given that the OP's Son has apparently driven without Insurance, then got caught by Police and then arranged a policy without disclosing the actual position they were in, this becomes a bit of an academic debate.

 

They had just paid in wages to their Bank to cover Insurance and were waiting to get a cancellation refund back. Given their position and any new Insurance would be really expensive, i should imagine they were stuck. Their only practical choice might be to get someone else to Insure the car and possibly take over ownership to avoid the car being crushed. The person arranging Insurance just has to make sure it covers getting the car out of a Police pound.

[sapphirey1966]

Hi bankfodder, wonder if you can give me some advise. My son was pulled for having no insurance, he was driving to bank to pay his wages in so he could then set up his insurance (i know what your all thinking and yes i said same to him that he should not have been driving without insurance and if he had let me know i would have transfered some into his account so he could have got his insurance and he could have then given me the cash...but whats done is done now and i have had a right moan at him).

 

Anyway, police impounded his car and my son walked from there to his nans house and she paid the first installment on her debit card. He went to police pound later that evening (once he had paid installment for insurance and received emails regarding the said taking out of insurance) but police would not let him take his car as they said he was not emailed correct documents. He had to wait till the monday as insurance company was not available on sundays. When he got home from work he phoned the insurance to ask for the correct documents to be sent and they asked him why he wanted them ( which i felt strange as is he not entitled to correct documents relating to said insurance). He replied that he needed them to get his car out of the police pound and the representative said "you did not tell us that your car was in a police pound" my son answered all the questions correctly when taking out the insurance and was not asked anything that would lead to him stating his car was in a police pound otherwise he would have said, as obviously when asked why he wanted the documents he said the reason why so was not hiding anything.

 

The rep said that he would have to call the underwriters and would call my son back. But my son had to call them back as it was getting later and he had not heard nothing and everyday his car was in the pound the bill was going up so obviously wanted it out asap. They then told him that the underwriters had cancelled the insurance as he had not stated the car was in pound. After a bit of arguing my son gave in and said about getting his money back due to the insurance being cancelled and he was told that they would have to find out from the underwriters and again would call him back. The next day my son still had not heard from them so calked again. To cut a long story short he has still not got anywhere with regards to knowing if he is deff getting money back and could not get his car out if the pound (and now the seven days are up) as he had no more money to be able to try another insurance company as he has a home and young family to support plus an ex and two children (it is because of his ex that he has no insurance as she cancelled the direct debit without him knowing which sent original insurance he had into being stopped as he didnt know it had bern until it was too late and they wouldnt re instate it unless he started it fresh. Is there any advise you can give. As now he has no car as was over 7 days since he was stopped (last saturday) and does not have the money back as yet.

 

I would like to add that my son did originally have insurance of which direct debit was being taken each month for it.

 

On the day of my dads funeral (who my children was very close too as we lived with my parents for 6 years when i split from a very abusive relationship & my dad was the only father figure in their lives) his partner text him and said she had bern seeing several other guys behind his back, my son was devastated but has to put this to back of his mind due to having to get through his grandads funeral and that he was carrying the coffin with my ither son.

 

This totally devastated him for weeks and the girlfriend was also playing games with him seeing his children. He ended up staying with my mum to also be there for her so she was not on her own even though he was going through all this other stuff himself. What he didnt know was tgat his partner had managed to gain access to his bank acvount and cancelked his direct debit for his car insurance and as everything was still at that address he did not receive any letters from his insirance company regarding the cancellation of the direct debit until several months later when she finally gave him them and told him at this point that she had cancelled debits, so he had unknowingly been driving for at least 3 months with mo insurance.

 

He got onto the insurance company and explained everything to them and to try and reinstate it but they said he would have to take out a fresh insurance. So tgat us why he had no insurance in the first place and people have said he should go to the police, which he did but because he has no proof she tampered with his bank they cant do anything. He is one of those that does not keep track of his banking so did not notice anything was wrong. He pays money in and either uses his debit card or gets cash out of cash machine when he wants it. I have told him he needs to pay more attention to his banking in future.

 

As for not letting tge insurance comapny know tge car was in a police pound...he was asked questions of which he answered and there was nothing that would lead him into stating car was in a pound. And he honestly didnt think he had to otherwise he would have said from the start as he didnt hide it when tgey asked why he wanted tge paperwork.

[slick132]

Hi Sapphirey,

 

Sorry but most of the above is simply NOT relevant.

 

All the reasons you mention make no difference to the scenario you referred to above. It doesn't matter WHY there was no insurance - what matters is there was NO insurance. That's pretty much an end to the legal debate. No insurance means you can't collect the car and it gets crushed.

 

If you can get some relevant insurance cover that enables you to have the car released from Compound, go for it !!

 

Edited February 23, 2017 by slick132
typo

[unclebulgaria67]

Agreed. All that matters is that there was no Insurance when the vehicle was stopped.

 

Some things don't make sense. Last time i cancelled a Direct Debit, i had to go into a Bank with debit card and enter my pin number, so they could cancel the Direct Debit mandate. i think most Banks have tightened up their processes, so they no longer accept just a written instruction to cancel a Direct Debit.

 

Also the new Insurance arrangement which was cancelled, may not have mentioned pending driving without Insurance conviction and the vehicle being in a Police pound. If the question about convictions was answered correctly, then it would have led to a conversation about the vehicle being in a Police pound.

[BazzaS]

Does the OP's son have a conviction for driving without insurance?

Were they issued a FPN? If they weren't (& might be reported for prosecution), the matter may still have been pending when the question was asked.

 

It depends what question was asked. If they were asked ONLY about convictions and not any pending matters the OP's son might have answered literally and said "no" ....

[sapphirey1966]

Does the OP's son have a conviction for driving without insurance?

Were they issued a FPN? If they weren't (& might be reported for prosecution), the matter may still have been pending when the question was asked.

 

It depends what question was asked. If they were asked ONLY about convictions and not any pending matters the OP's son might have answered literally and said "no" ....

 

He was asked if he had any convictions, which at that point my sons licence was totally clean. he was not asked if he had any pending convictions or pending points, my son does not at yet know what points or fine he will be getting as he still has not heard from the police about this. He answered all wuestions they asked him honestly, they did not at any point adk him anything that would lead him into saying the car was in a pound. He did not hide anything from them as stated when he managed to get bavk in touch with them on the monday when adked why he wanted the document he said to get his car out of police pound he did not try to say for any other reason (he could have said to get car tax if he was trying to hide anything) as he dud not know this would be a problem. It was the certificate he needed as all they sent him via email was statement if facts, direct debit mandate,etc but no certificate of insurance which is what he needed.

 

And just to add we are not arguing the fact that he had no insurance and are not arguing that he was pulled iver and car impounded as he knows he was an idiot driving even a short distance. We want advise with regards to the insuranc company just cancelling this new insurance and getting regund, as they have set up direct debit and taken another installment even though THEY cancelled it themselves within 48 hours!

 

And with regards to his ex partner cancelling his previous insurance, she had gained access to his online banking and cancelled it direct from there (which you can do on most if not all online banking). He hadnt noticed as he dies nit kerp track of his banking. He only found out when he was eventually able to get access to his children she took great pleasure in handing him the insurance letters asking about the cancelled debit and then saying his cover had been cancelled and thats also when she said she had git into his onlibe banking and cancelled his insurance. All because he refused to go back with her after she had cheated and also said that one of his children may not be his. This girl has played with his head and also with loosing his grandad. Yes he drove without insurance and yes he had his car taken butt this is not our issue. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone....he was wrong and he know it and is paying for it now, it is advise re the insurance company not condemnation that we require.

[BazzaS]

So his replies were accurate : and this is the line you need (well, he needs) to take.

 

If the insurers wanted to know about pending matters : they should have asked.

 

BTW : no condemnation from me, in case that was aimed at me!, I was merely asking to clarify the best line to take!

[slick132]

Hi Sapphirey,

 

I wasn't being condemnatory - I was simply giving my objective observations.

 

In post #2 above, I said the later insurer should return the money - " 2. Anything paid to the potential insurer should probably be returned to his Nan as no cover was being provided. "

 

Has YS's nan sought a refund of the debit card payment(s) she paid ?

 

Also, can you expand on what you said in your last post - " ........ as they [the insurer] have set up direct debit and taken another installment even though THEY cancelled it themselves within 48 hours!

 

When did this occur in relation to the time-line; what happened; have you demanded a refund since ?