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Hi Guys,

 

Another case of NTK for over 3 hour stay at Bishop Centre Taplow from Euro Car parks.

I received letter in the post to registered keeper with photo of my number plate at entering and leaving times. Unfortunately my partner did exceed the 3hr free parking time stay there. But done bit of shopping there which would be visible on the bank statement.

 

I am preparing appeal to the ECP in hope they will cancel their invoice.

Can you suggest any more legal wording I could add to the below draft?

 

 

Dear Euro Car Parks

 

As keeper of the vehicle, registration XXXX XXX, I have received your invoice number xxxxxx.

 

The driver at the time tells me that they did substantial shopping at several shops in Bishop Centre and that they are therefore not liable to pay you any money.

Please find attached redacted bank statement with charges from Tesco and TK Maxx confirming they were legitimate customers and to substantiate their length of stay on site.

 

I kindly ask you to allow this appeal on above mentioned grounds.

 

Should you decide to reject this appeal, please issue me with a valid POPLA code.

 

At POPLA I shall be requesting breakdown of the genuine pre estimate of loss that you charge must represent. Since it was a free car park and not filled to 75% percent at the time there was no loss.

 

Look forward to hearing from you,

Registered Keeper

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before you ask us about how to word an appeal, post up the NTK and we can then see if it is compliant with the conditions of the POFA to create a keeper liability in the first place. If it isnt then the NTK is worthless to them.

Your suggested appeal will fail, mitigation is always doomed to fail because it is just that. You have to beat their claim of a contractual obligation Try reading up on contract law and parking threads in general here and never send them copies of bank statements etc. When we have seen the NTK we would also like to see the signage at the car park, you will still have plenty of time to appeal if it is actually worthwhile.

 

Also genuine pre-estimate of loss is 2 years out of date so agin that will lose you your appeal for just being plain wrong ( in most cases)

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Tanks for your advice ericsbrother,

 

I was only planning to leave date end name of retailer for couple of transaction that are relevant.

 

Glad I did not appeal before getting advice here. I've attached redacted NTK and will try to get some picture of the signed when I go pass that car park tomorrow.

NTK_edited.pdf

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Its euro car parks. They always mess up. Normally on signage

Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

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I'll get pictures of the signs late tonight.

Would I just need pictures of the actual signs or pictures of where the signs are in relation to the entrance?

 

From what I recall signs and text are pretty small you might well not notice them unless you come really close and read on purpose.

Edited by woking
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First upload unapproved.

 

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Hi Guys

 

Please find attached pictures of the signs and the car park.

While looking at the photo's I've realised there s a tiny text at the bottom of the sign.

I don't think anyone can be expected to read that. You would need to climb on the lamp post to read it :)

 

Please let me know what I could put in my appeal to ECP.

 

Thanks!

Signs.pdf

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well, 2 things come to mind, there are no conditions of parking on the big sign so no contract offered. The small signs refers to conditions that do not appear on the big sign so that is an invitation to treat and not a contract offer either. This means that there must be some other signs somewhere that they rely on to offer a contract. This will then onlt be relevant if you decide that the first 2 signs arent good enough for you and wish to be bound by thi invisible signage and also want to ignore yoru rights for distance selling, as the parking co doesnt have a person on site to tell you what is what face to face they cant ignore the law.

 

My appeal would be simple, That there has been no breaqch of contract as none was offered to the driver at the time. They will ignore this but that will allow you to appeal to POPLA where you can expand on this argument and use the images you have collected to further the argument.

This is another exampkle of where something could be very simple and the parking co screw it up but then continue to blame and harass the motorist. The propblem is that they wont learn until the income they receive from malpractice is zero and most people still just pay u as they dont know any better.

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Thank you for your advise ericsbrother.

 

I think smaller sign refers to the signs they posted on the lamp posts across the car par. One that is shown on page 3.

It also has some really small text that I did not initially noticed as it is so small. I will try and take photos of that really small text but that will not be until weekend.

 

Would that change anything in what I should write in ECP appeal or should I just appeal with one sentence like you suggested and request POPLA code:

 

There has been no breach of contract as none was offered to the driver at the time.

Please cancel your invoice or issue POPLA code?

 

 

And then give all details in POPLA appeal?

Am I being to naive hoping they could cancel NTK without me having to appeal to POPLA?

Edited by woking
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yes, just what you have highlighted in italics. Dont even ask for the POPLA code as that is inviting them to not consider the appeal properly ( they wont anyway, how else will they earn money, not by honest means).

You must understand that there is rarely a quick fix for these matters, POPLA isnt the end of the road either, it is a worse system than it used to be but that is another matter. Do waht you have to do at the correct time and you will eventually get there.

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are you certain? They have to issue it and get it in your hands within 14 days after the day of the event. This is an exact time, so about the 27th isnt precise enough but it does appear that it is before the 30th. Always make a recrod of things like this in the future, keep the envelope it came in and write the date you got it on the envelope. When I say keep it, I mean for at least 2 years, regardless of the outcome of any appeal/representation.

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Thanks ericsbrother. I will keep envelope and make note of the date in the future.

I can definitely recall it was within couple of days after they issued the letter. 27th is the latest and definitely before 30 Jan.

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I've sent appeal to ECP with one sentence (There has been no breach of contract as none was offered to the driver at the time) as ericsbrother has kindly suggested.

ECP send automatic e-mail response confirming they've received it and will review within 35 days.

 

I'll update when I have further response from ECP.

Edited by woking
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rea a number of other thread and you will see that we recommed sending aletter and dont email or phone them. This just gives them a method of harassing you for free wheras using the post forces them to spend money on stamps to tell lies to you.

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Note that it starts important notice. If it was that important the letters should be 70mm high. Whatever it says wont impress a judge, you are supposed to be able to read this from the drivers seat in a car and I am struggling to read it with an electron microscope. I can see the molecules of paint but the characters are smallr than that. Nanosignage.- new buzz word to use.

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  • 3 weeks later...

well, no surprise as your appeal really didnt touch the points you need to address.

So, appeal to POPLA.

1. ECP have no locus in this matter, they are by their own admission agents of the landowner so it is for the landowner to make a claim for any breach of contract. ECP may say they offer a contract but they cannot perform their part of it. ECP have quoted Fairlie v Fenton as being their authority but this makes it clear that the landlord is bound by anything they say or do so there is no binding of the parties. IF ECP have a contract with the landowner that assigns the right to enter into contracts and make claims IN THEIR OWN NAME then let them show sight of it in an unredacted form so it is clear when this contract starts and ends.

2 You send a copy of the image at the entrance (the one with the big illuminated bit saying how many spaces available and state that this is the contract offered by ECP. There is nothing in this to say that any restricitons are a breach of contract so there has not been a breach. Any other term not stated on this sign is an unfair term under the Consumer Contract regs and the distance seling part of those regs are not met as there is no indication of other terms, charges or costs that are not calculated or information as to how they are calculated. For these reasons it is stated no contract was offered to consider so there can be no breach. Any other term is unlawful

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Thank ericsbrother,

 

There are two signs at the entrance to the car park - one with number of free spaces and one saying it is camera controlled car park and that terms and conditions apply and need to refer to terms and conditions in car park.

 

- Should I just include image with the first sign or the second sign that is visible when entering car park as well?

- In the first image part of the second sign is partly visible if I only need to submit first image should I crop it so that part of the other is not visible?

- Should I provide any other documents – copy of ECP NTK or appeal refusal letter?

- I guess there no reason to provide copy of the statement showing shopping was done (redacted so that no name or address can be identified) as this is not reason for appeal?

- Should I include both points from you message in my POPLA appeal as amended below of was some of it included just for my information?

 

1. ECP have no locus in this matter, they are by their own admission agents of the landowner so it is for the landowner to make a claim for any breach of contract. ECP may say they offer a contract but they cannot perform their part of it. ECP have quoted Fairlie v Fenton as being their authority but this makes it clear that the landlord is bound by anything they say or do so there is no binding of the parties. If ECP have a contract with the landowner that assigns the right to enter into contracts and make claims IN THEIR OWN NAME then let them show sight of it in an unredacted form so it is clear when this contract starts and ends.

2. Please find attached copy of the signs at the entrance - this is the contract offered by ECP. There is nothing in this to say that any restrictions are a breach of contract so there has not been a breach. Any other term not stated on this sign is an unfair term under the Consumer Contract regulations and the distance selling part of those regulations are not met as there is no indication of other terms, charges or costs that are not calculated or information as to how they are calculated. For these reasons it is stated that no contract was offered to consider so there can be no breach. Any other term is unlawful.

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the big sign as stated already.

 

as for your other comments, all irrelevant, the parking co will provide what they want to so your list will only make their job of beating you easier.

 

Look, POPLA isnt an honest broker in this matter, they work for the BPA and only consider what they are told id their remit.

 

It is not the end of the road, the above points will make ECP think very hard about taking the matter further even if they win at POPLA. These are good solid reasons for winning a court claim so they wont want to be going there in a hurry.

 

Most POPLA appeals waffle about things like the amount of shopping you did, this is called mitigation- which is an admission of guilt but trying to lessen the damage done afterwards. Not worth a light, this is about contract law, not parking or shopping.

 

Get that into your head and you will have an easier journey through this.

Edited by honeybee13
Paras.
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Thanks ericsbrother,

 

I've submitted appeal to POPLA and will update when I hear back from them.

It is hard to visualise that you are entering into contract by parking to do supermarket shopping but I am getting there :)

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