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    • OK - thank you. I understand the concept of LIP, and the need to keep my claim as simple and straightforward as possible. The legal arguments presented in what I called my skeleton statement were already in the original template I downloaded from this site. In that document I opened with "I am not proposing to set out the sequence of events." Might it be worthwhile for me to include a very brief timeline at that point, which would perhaps then allow it to become my witness statement? Or do you consider two separate documents are required? 
    • BF do you know where the instruction for skeleton has come from? Its just WX + docs. Do you think a skeleton is needed if the only issue in dispute is the legality of the exclusion terms. it seems excessive as well as wx no?   ah yes good point with LIP wx format i didnt think about the LIP judge softhand 
    • And incidentally, the really important part of this is that when you go to court, you are totally thorough and fluent not only with the facts – but with the effect of the legal points you are arguing. The facts are broadly not in dispute but the legal effect for instance of either having insurance or not having insurance. Of requiring insurance – these are the things you need to understand fully. Preparing your court bundle and eventually refining it bit by bit is terrific revision for you and will put you in control but also understanding its content fully and being fluent with its pages in the position of every point you are making is also essential.
    • Skeleton argument/witness statement – it's just a matter of terminology and we don't need to make an issue of it. Actually the three-page document that you have posted first of all and which you have called skeleton argument – is a witness statement which would be attached to the bundle which would be part of your indexed court bundle. I haven't looked at it in detail get or how it supports your claim or how it addresses any of the points made in the defence. I'll have to do that in the next two or three days. But for the moment, it looks fine. You have posted a second document which you are describing as an anonymized witness statement and as far as I can see, I agree with Cagger @jk2054 that much of your circle witness statement is a bit of a waffle and contains irrelevant information that you haven't remedied it in your final version which you say is chopped up. Also, you have received a suggestion of a template from Cagger @jk2054 and although this is going to be confusing for you, I don't think you should bother to use it. It is far too formal. You are a litigant in person and you need the flexibility of fully informing but informal documents which is what we are providing you with. We are suggesting models which we have been using over many cases and they all succeed in some them have been, complemented by the judge for the effectiveness and their clarity. You are litigant in person and one of the things you need to do is you need to have the judge on your side and helping you if necessary and this means that you don't want to start acting or talking or writing as if you are some kind of lawyer – you aren't. Being a litigant personage a certain sort of leverage and you should exploit that. The templates that we are suggesting to you are still not the templates that a completely un-advised person would use but they are still thorough. Stick to them. I suggest that you follow the advice given by the site team here and avoid confusion by switching horses. So for the moment I would suggest that you stick to your original skeleton argument – which follows the format that we have been using on this forum. We do like to see the fully prepared bundle please. I think there should be a next step. Have you got hearing date? Have you got a date for filing your bundle? In fact I have just looked back and I see that your filing date is 8 July. That's fine
    • First of all – as has already been pointed out to you, this is not a defect in the usual way that we understand and so that means that you don't need to rely on your 30 day and six months rights to reject. You can get MOT test done and it turns out to be an MOT failure for any reason then you have the added weight that they have is sold you an unroadworthy vehicle. Who did the existing MOT? I have a sense that it was big motoring world themselves in which case this would give you even greater leverage that if you have an MOT fail and it seems fairly clear that the reason for the failure is something which existed for some time that that would also cast doubt over the MOT provided by big motoring world and this would be even more serious. In any event, the vehicle is not as described and I think that this is an immediate ground for cancelling the policy and even better than that I think it would be a good ground for resisting any deduction made for mileage used – although we will have to deal with as it comes. I have read on Facebook that big motoring world tend to insist on quite a big deduction per mile and I have a sense that they do this because they know they can get away with it because they know their customers are really just happy to get rid of the vehicle any cost. You have told us you've got to a position where they seem to have agreed that you have now drawn a blank and they are being obstructive. Maybe you can lay out a bullet point chronology of exactly what has happened so far – point by point. I don't think you've told us how much you pay for the vehicle and also we want to know a list of the other expenses to which you been put including insurance et cetera and if you cancel the insurance how much you are likely to lose. How long is it not been driven? Why is it not been driven by your son? Didn't you planned for the more expensive insurance premium before you bought it? I have a sneaking suspicion that maybe you bought it and then was surprised at how expensive it was and are now finding a reason to return it. Please be completely level with us and tell us if this forms part of your reason for wanting to return it. We need to know everything – straight dealing – so we can help you in the best way possible. Otherwise we will have surprises sprung on us and we will all be embarrassed and you may lose. In fact I see that we don't know anything about the current all – make, model, mileage, or price paid which have already asked you about. Any reason that we don't have these very basic and obvious details without having to ask for them? You refer to the two new runflat tyres – why? Are these new ones which came with the car or these new ones which you had to buy and if so why did you have to buy them and how much they cost. It will be nice not to have to cross-examine your every detail. It will save a lot of time. Please have a look at this post carefully, discern the questions and address each one please.
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    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

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    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Xercise 4 Less - Strange one


davidswish
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Hi,

 

I have read allot of threads and can see how bad this company is.

 

I signed up to the Xercise 4 Less Burnley gym online 14/01/17

 

I didn't have any money in my bank on the 28th as i get paid last working day of the month (2 days short)

 

"Your first payment will be collected on or just after 28 January 2017 for an amount of £9.99 which consists of a joining fee of £0.00 and the first monthly payment of £9.99."

 

I accept that I will have to pay the £25 admin charge + £9.99 even if I haven't even been at the gym 1 month yet!

With this type of gym and now seeing what they are like I want out of the contract even if its £9.99

 

I have moved locations and live with my partner in manchester and go home the odd weekend (was going to use that gym when I was at home).

 

Could I get out of the membership? the fact is that if I change my address via my bank and sent it in, that will be final, membership closed?

 

I don't want debt collector letters coming to my partners address you see.

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Hi DW and welcome to CAG

 

Please read other threads here to learn about Harlands/CRS, their tactics and our opinion about challenging their admin fees EVERY time they try to charge you.

 

The only debt collectors involved with this gym m/ship will be Harlands/CRS, The Zinc Group and Spratt Endicott (Harlands current pet solicitors). They can be ignored generally as all they do is make misleading and empty threats by letter, email and/or text messages. No one will visit and this will not affect your credit files.

 

I see 2 possible solutions :-

 

1. Speak to the gym and ask if your DD can be taken from your bank on or after the 1st of each month. If they say they can't help and you have to contact Harlands, tell them you'll only try a couple of time but Harlands are notoriously hard to contact. That could enable you to remain a member if you wanted. If this doesn't work out, cancel the DD mandate.

 

2. If Harlands write and say the DD bounced and they'll charge you a £25 admin fee in mid Feb, cancel the DD mandate before they can use it again. You'll cancel to avoid them mis-using the DD mandate to collect admin fees that are not lawful or enforceable.

 

You don't have to accept that you'll pay a £25 admin fee just because it's in the T&C's. We maintain the admin fee is punitive and not a true reflection of cost incurred by Harlands due to your failed DD. This is why we challenge them.

 

In any event, if Harlands use the DD to take any more than the £9.99 m/ship fee, you can reclaim it using the DD Guarantee Scheme.

 

You'll probably also get hit with the bank charging a bounced DD fee but there's little you can do about this. Having said that, if this is a rare occurrence with your bank, you could speak to Cust'r Services and see if they'll waive the charge - gotta be worth a try.

 

Read other threads ..................

 

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Hi Slick132,

 

Thank you for your quick response.

 

If I was to not pay the admin fee and want to leave the gym, I couldn't use the change of address because they would send debt collection letters to that address?

Having read other threads I wouldn't normally pay the fee, but I don't see a way out of it if I want to cancel my membership.

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Hi DW,

 

Does the gym currently have your address in/near Burnley. If so, you can write to the gym saying you've changed address to Manchester but they may want to see some sort of evidence. Regardless of proof, let them know asap.

 

Have you checked yet to see if the DD was paid by the bank, or bounced.

 

We need to know this to offer best advice, so let us know asap.

 

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Hi Slick,

 

The 9.99 bounced yesterday, the DD is still active. I now have funds in my account.

The address is registered to Burnley yes.

Received this email this morning. I phoned the helpline to try get them to waver the fees but she just said if you cancel your DD you will be passed to collection.

 

Harlands administer the collection of all payments due under your agreement with Xercise 4 Less. Your bank have advised us that your February instalment has been returned unpaid "refer to payer" as there were insufficient funds in the account to pay the amount due.

 

We will therefore debit your account on 10 FEB 17 for the total amount of £34.99 made up as follows:

 

Instalment Amount £9.99 Administration Fee £25.00 Total Due £34.99

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I just sent the manager an email CC'in Harland's email below it. I suspect I will need to post a letter of the following to the gym address also?

 

To: general.manager.burnley(at)xercise4less

Dear sir or madam,

 

I am disgusted with this charge not even spending 15days at the gym.

 

I hereby give notice to cancel my gym membership at Burnley Xercise 4 Less gym with immediate effect.

I have changed my address and no longer a resident in Burnley, I now reside in manchester.

Please can you confirm receipt of this email.

 

Yours faithfully.

 

David

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Hi DW,

 

If you knew the DD would be taken BEFORE you were paid and would bounce, you should have cancelled the DD to avoid incurring the bank charge. Too late now unfortunately !

 

I'd now write to Exercise4Less at their Leeds head office. Get a free Certificate of Posting at the post office. Use whichever address you live at the most :-

 

Dear Xercise4Less,

 

I refer to my new membership at Burnley gym.

 

My DD bounced due to lack of funds and Harlands are now seeking to charge a £25 admin which I will not pay.

 

To avoid Harlands abusing the DD mandate, I have had to cancel it.

 

I am happy to pay you the £9.99 I owe but I will not allow Harlands to charge unlawful fees.

 

If you supply payment details within 14 days, I will pay you £9.99. If you don't accept this, my offer will be withdrawn and I'll consider the matter closed.

 

I will deal with this matter in writing only, not by phone.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

There's no point in writing to Halands - they'll ignore anything you have to say. Similarly, you should ignore any contact from Harlands/CRS.

 

See if X4Less reply and let us know.

 

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The draft above should do the job for now.

 

I see no point in saying any more for now.

 

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Looks like you got the address bang-on !!

 

Xercise$Less

1 Kirkstall Ind Est

Kirkstall Rd

Leeds

West Yorkshire

LS4 2AZ

 

............. in case anyone else needs it.

 

Let us know how they respond.

 

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I received a reply back about my membership cancelation request via email.

 

Hi,

 

I would like to cancel my membership as I have moved to manchester.

 

What documents would you require?

 

Kind regards,

 

--------------------------------------

c.service@harlandsgroup.co.uk

 

Thank you for your email.

 

All membership cancellations are to be processed via Xercise 4 Less, the cancellation of your Direct Debit instruction simply prevents us from collecting payments, it does not cancel your agreement.

 

We advise that in order to cancel your membership you must contact Xercise 4 Less directly, we cannot action any cancellation on your account without receiving confirmation from them to do so.

 

Alternatively you may go onto the website and fill out a cancellation form

 

 

Please select 'If I no longer want to be a member of X4L how do I cancel my membership?' and fill out the cancellation form.

 

We trust for you to find this in order.

If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.

 

For all Enquiries Call Harlands : () Quote Reference :

 

Office hours: Monday to Friday, 9am - 5pm

 

Yours sincerely,

Courtney Rowlands

Harlands

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After canceling on the website;

 

X4Less Front Desk Burnley sent me:

 

Good Morning David.

 

You will also need to call our Membership Support Team 0113 203 8602 to discuss your payments before your cancellation will be processed for you.

 

 

Kind Regards

 

 

----------------------------------------

Hi David

 

You have now passed the 14 day online cooling off period to cancel your membership. Which means you are now within your contract period. Once you are in the contract period you can only cancel your membership with evidence of; Medical issue, redundancy or relocation. This is all included in the copy of the terms and conditions you would of received when you signed up.

 

 

What you need to do is go onto xercise4less scroll to the bottom of the homepage and select the option of "cancel my membership". You will then be presented with a cancellation form. The first question it will ask you for is your W number which is W13999852.

 

When it asks you which contract type you are please select "I am within my 12 month contract but I wish to cancel". It will then ask you attach evidence that proves you have relocated.

Edited by davidswish
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Oddly I received an email from the head office saying the following this morning ;

 

Thank you for contacting Xercise4Less. We can confirm that your membership has now been cancelled. Your 30 days’ notice period starts from the date you submitted your cancellation form in line with your terms and conditions.

 

Please do not cancel your direct debit as Xercise4Less will do this for you as part of the cancellation process.

 

We are sad to see you go and hope you have enjoyed your time with us.

 

Regards,

 

Team Xercise4Less.

 

 

Central Support Team

Head Office

Xercise4Less

Unit 1, Kirkstall Industrial Estate,

Kirkstall Road,

Leeds,

LS4 2AZ

 

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Hi DW,

 

Of the various replies, the only one that's relevant in the one from X4Less Head Office in post #15. They say clearly they accept the cancellation and there's no mention of them requiring proof about change of address.

 

I would now reply to X4Less saying :-

 

Thank you for your letter of xxdate.

 

I had to cancel the DD mandate to avoid Harlands misusing ot to take admin fees they're not entitled to.

 

Are you expecting me to pay £9.99 for the cancellation period ? If so, kindly provide me with your bank account details so I can make a direct bank payment to your bank.

 

Otherwise I can pay by card if you tell me your phone number to call.

 

I will not deal with Harlands as I do not trust them.

 

By post again, as before.

 

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That doesn't matter.

 

X4Less has said they accept the cancellation but they can't collect the final DD that's due because you've already cancelled the DD mandate.

 

Use the draft in post #16 and see how they reply. Ignore all other contact from the gym and/or Harlands.

 

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                                            Have we helped you ...?  Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Please give something if you can. We all give our time free of charge but the site has bills to pay.

 

Thanks !:-)

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