Caught ticketless on train - First Great Western

[skippy11211]

Hi all.

 

A few days ago I was travelling on a train and caught without a ticket.

 

it was not by a normal inspector and instead an enforcer of some kind who took matters more seriously.

 

I had come from a small station where the ticket machine often does not work and so I said that was the reason i didn't have a ticket and was not intending to complete the journey without paying.

 

He said that I had ample time at the station where I changed to go and buy a ticket.

He also said that because the station i got on at and the one i would leave at did not have barriers that i could have intended to do the journey without paying.

I apologised and said that i had planned on paying on the train,

but after research its clear this isnt good enough.

 

The whole conversation was recorded and he asked my details etc and i think he said i would be receiving a letter with an admin fee.

 

I have done some research

my question is

will the letter offer an admin fee because i'm quite scared of the prospect of a court hearing and potential criminal record?

 

Is there a way they could find out the ticket machine was in fact working (i'm not sure it was) and prosecute further or will they just want a quick penalty fee?

 

Thanks in advance for you help.

[dx100uk]

moved to the transport forum from general motoring..

 

 

dx

[dx100uk]

welcome aboard.

 

your post initially appears to be rather short of the actual truth of what might have happened?

hoping that it might mitigate the possible implications of what you might suffer ?

 

so...can we please have the true story....

 

this 'enforcer' you speak of...

did you give him your correct name and address?

and have you to date received anything in the post regarding this event yet...............???

 

to answer some of your issues.....

 

yes they will know if the machine was operational

and yes you should have by your own initiative sought the 'guard' and purchased a valid ticket..

not await train staff to track you down to attain payment/ticket....

 

dx

[BazzaS]

"Is there a way they could find out the ticket machine was in fact working (i'm not sure it was) and prosecute further or will they just want a quick penalty fee?"

 

They'll know (for sure!) if the machine was working or not.

The machines keep records, plus if they can see ticket sales from the machine before and after when you state it wasn't working - you'll be caught in a lie.

 

Plus : "I had come from a small station where the ticket machine often does not work and so I said that was the reason i didn't have a ticket" - so have you already said it wasn't working or not? !.

 

The report the member of staff will make would almost certainly note your reply on this point if they were trained in Revenue Protection.

 

If you were thinking of claiming it wasn't working (when it might have been!) merely in the hope that it wasn't working : if they can show you were lying it would likely scupper any plans for you to seek an alternative to prosecution.

 

You'll likely receive a letter from the TOC asking for your comments / version of events.

They don't have to tell you what evidence they already have.

If you get caught in a lie : likely they'll prosecute.

 

Best advice is to tell the truth

(and answer what they have asked : if you have dodged a fare previously you don't have to mention it unless asked!) :

but don't get caught in a lie.

 

If you are hoping you'll get to

"practice what fibs you might get away with"

- you'll get litttle sympathy when you get caught out & they decide to prosecute.

 

How old are you? (If under 18 they are less likely to prosecute)

Have you been caught ticketless previously? (They would be more likely to prosecute).

 

If you had opportunities

(on 2 trains, and at the interchange station)

to seek out staff & buy a ticket

it wouldn't be hard for them to show you intended not to pay your fare ......

[unclebulgaria67]

Hi all.

 

A few days ago I was travelling on a train and caught without a ticket.

 

it was not by a normal inspector and instead an enforcer of some kind who took matters more seriously.

 

I had come from a small station where the ticket machine often does not work and so I said that was the reason i didn't have a ticket and was not intending to complete the journey without paying.

 

He said that I had ample time at the station where I changed to go and buy a ticket.

He also said that because the station i got on at and the one i would leave at did not have barriers that i could have intended to do the journey without paying.

I apologised and said that i had planned on paying on the train,

but after research its clear this isnt good enough.

 

The whole conversation was recorded and he asked my details etc and i think he said i would be receiving a letter with an admin fee.

 

I have done some research

my question is

will the letter offer an admin fee because i'm quite scared of the prospect of a court hearing and potential criminal record?

 

Is there a way they could find out the ticket machine was in fact working (i'm not sure it was) and prosecute further or will they just want a quick penalty fee?

 

Thanks in advance for you help.

 

My local station only has a ticket office open to 10am and one ticket machine that is often broken. The inspectors on the trains therefore have no problems issuing tickets.

 

It depends on your station and what the train operator provides. If there is no reason not to have bought a ticket, then you should negotiate to pay an admin fee to avoid a prosecution.

[skippy11211]

Thank you all very much for your replies, appreciated.

 

@dx100uk:

Yes i have him all the correct information and was polite as I could be and apologised etc, and said i was sorry i didn't seek out a ticket at the change but rather expected to get one on the train.

 

 

In his statement he did write that i would 'wait' for a ticket inspector on the train rather than actively seek on out so I suppose that makes me sound passive in the process.

 

 

I haven't received anythign yet as it only happened a few days ago,

I'm just really hoping i get the chance to pay an admin fee rather than straight prosecution or anything!

 

 

It is my first time offence so he did say that was good, and he implied I would get an admin fee but who knows. He kept in future I should I should actively seek a ticket which of course I said i would.

 

@BazzaS: I said it wasn't working yes.

This machine more often than not isn't actually working but on that day I stupidly didn't check for sure, idiot..!

 

 

I am 20 and yes because he said i haven't received a warning before he said that was good.

The only opportunity i had was the 15 minute window of change as there definitely wasn't an inspector on my first train. So you think if they can prove that machine was working then it's very unlikely I'll get a chance to settle it out of court?

 

@unclebulgaria67: Yes that is what normally happens when the machine is down - unfortunately this wasn't a normal inspector!

[dx100uk]

great well done.

 

just await the letter

it will ask for your side of the story

 

should be easy to sort out

 

and no its very unlikely you'll get a record nor be going to court either

 

a good grovelling letter should sort it

 

pop back when/if you get a letter.

 

I see you've been reading other threads

so you now know the score.

 

dx

[BazzaS]

What of the fact the OP told the RP staff that the ticket machine was broken?, IF it wasn't!.

 

dx, the TOC MIGHT agree an administrative settlement, but don't have to.

 

If the OP gets caught in a lie, they may decide to prosecute.

 

OP, are you planning on repeating the lie (that you tried to buy a ticket but couldn't) when they ask for your version of events??

If not, what do you plan to say instead??

 

A Bylaw 18 prosecution would be a "slam dunk", and a RRA 1889 S5(3) prosecution wouldn't be too hard (if the reason given to the RP staff for not buying a ticket was "ticket machine broken" and if it wasn't broken, and the OP was on their 2nd train and hadn't tried to buy a ticket prior to being stopped .......)

[BazzaS]

The only opportunity i had was the 15 minute window of change as there definitely wasn't an inspector on my first train.

 

No staff other than the driver on the first train?. Or just "no 'inspector' came round".

There wasn't a guard / conductor / train manager ?

[skippy11211]

What of the fact the OP told the RP staff that the ticket machine was broken?, IF it wasn't!.

 

dx, the TOC MIGHT agree an administrative settlement, but don't have to.

 

If the OP gets caught in a lie, they may decide to prosecute.

 

OP, are you planning on repeating the lie (that you tried to buy a ticket but couldn't) when they ask for your version of events??

If not, what do you plan to say instead??

 

A Bylaw 18 prosecution would be a "slam dunk", and a RRA 1889 S5(3) prosecution wouldn't be too hard (if the reason given to the RP staff for not buying a ticket was "ticket machine broken" and if it wasn't broken, and the OP was on their 2nd train and hadn't tried to buy a ticket prior to being stopped .......)

 

Hi thanks for your response.

Saying it was broken was done in a state of panic but it very well could have been broken as normally it is.

 

 

However, I realise if it wasn't this could look very bad!

Do you think it's in their interest to press charges or would they rather settle it out of court?

Of course I want to do whatever I can do to that.

[unclebulgaria67]

Those ticket machines at stations can stop working at any point. There is a light on the side that starts flashing when they are not working. At my local station, the light is viewable from the track side, so it is viewable by train staff as they are passing. Last time i got om a train, the machine was playing up. The ticket inspector said the machines are often not working, so they just issue tickets when asked.

 

If you get on a train without a ticket, you have to buy a ticket a first opportunity. So this means asking for a ticket when you see the guard or seeking out the guard or buying before exiting your arrival station.

[skippy11211]

No staff other than the driver on the first train?. Or just "no 'inspector' came round".

There wasn't a guard / conductor / train manager ?

 

Definitely no staff on the first train. It was a tiny train. However, there were staff at the station i changed at, which i was at for 15 minutes (ample time to get a ticket and I'm kicking myself for not having done that!)

[unclebulgaria67]

I would try not to get to anxious about this and get yourself into a state.

 

In this situation, i would not think i had done anything wrong. If they don't provide ticket facilities and kick up a fuss when you tried to buy a ticket when approached, then the train operator has questions to answer as well.

 

You are best to put forward a positive defence, rather than admit or appear to admit any wrong doing.

 

E.g if you were an elderly person, they would most likely have shown understanding and just sold you a ticket.

[BazzaS]

But they may have provided ticket facilities.

The OP isn't sure, and we just don't know (but the TOC will!)

[BazzaS]

Definitely no staff on the first train. It was a tiny train. However, there were staff at the station i changed at, which i was at for 15 minutes (ample time to get a ticket and I'm kicking myself for not having done that!)

 

I can understand you not wanting to identify the exact line,

but is it one that has DOO (Driver Only Operation)?.

 

These are listed at:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-man_operation#Current_Driver_Only_.2F_One_Man_Operations

 

(Accepting that Wikipedia is only ever "as good as its last edit"!)

[skippy11211]

I'm not sure, but i know for sure there wasn't an inspector or anyone to get the ticket off on the first train!

 

I suppose there is nothing i can do anyway until i get the letter

[BazzaS]

Ah well, you could have said if it was one of the DOO lines, but have chosen not to.

 

Why does that matter?

 

If not DOO, and you say in your reply "there were no staff on the train", and they check and there was a conductor (even if they were sat in the conductor's cabin!)

 

; it'd be another reason for the TOC to doubt you are telling the whole truth / doubt how hard you tried to buy a ticket when you could have done so........

 

The TOC is entitled to say

 

"it is the traveller's responsibility to buy a ticket at the first station, prior to travel, or if not able to buy a ticket there to seek out the staff"

: they don't have to let you wait until the staff approach you .....

[skippy11211]

Thanks again for your useful response!

 

 

Really appreciate the insight.

 

 

I guess for me it's just a matter of waiting for the letter now

but I'll be sure to let you know how I get on.

 

 

Just had a job offer which is why I'm especially intrigued about the implications for criminal record

[honeybee13]

When you get the letter, skippy, come back here and tell us what it says and we'll guide you on what you need to say.

 

HB

[Old-CodJA]

What Train Operating Company (TOC) this occurred on is probably much more important than the actual line of route because although some lines are 'shared routes' and the actual legislation is the same for all the TOCs, unfortunately some are more likely to prosecute first time offences than others.

 

Knowing which TOC will also make clear whether the service was DOO or whether a conductor / guard would have been on the train.

 

You've been given good advice by Honeybee13 and I suggest that you wait to see what any letter actually alleges before trying to formulate any reply.

[skippy11211]

Thanks for your advice, I think it was First Great Western!

[skippy11211]

Hi guys just an update, received a letter today offering me a fine of 140 to settle it out of court. Obviously i'll jump at that!

 

Thanks all for your insight though.

[dx100uk]

No its not a fine its a settlement out of court!!!

 

Well done!!