Jump to content


  • Tweets

  • Posts

    • Thank you for that "read me", It's a lot to digest, lots of legal procedure. There was one thing that I was going to mention to you,  but in one of the conversations in that thread it was mentioned that there may be spies on the Forum,  this is something that I've read quite some time ago in a previous thread. What I had in mind was to wait for the thirty days after their reply to my CCA request and then send the unenforceable letter. I was hoping that an absence of signature could be the Silver Bullet but it seems that there are lot of layers to peel on this Onion.  
    • love the extra £1000 charge for confidentialy there BF   Also OP even if they don't offer OOC it doesn't mean your claim isn't good. I had 3 against EVRi that were heard over the last 3 weeks. They sent me emails asking me to discontinue as I wouldn't win. Went infront of a judge and won all 3.    Just remember the law is on your side. The judges will be aware of this.   Where you can its important to try to point out at the hearing the specific part of the contract they breached. I found this was very helpful and the Judge made reference to it when they gave their judgements and it seemed this was pretty important as once you have identified a specific breach the matter turns straight to liability. From there its a case of pointing out the unlawfullness of their insurance and then that should be it.
    • I know dx and thanks again for yours and others help. I was 99.999% certain last payment was over six years ago if not longer.  👍
    • Paragraph 23 – "standard industry practice" – put this in bold type. They are stupid to rely on this and we might as well carry on emphasising how stupid they are. I wonder why they could even have begun to think some kind of compelling argument – "the other boys do it so I do it as well…" Same with paragraph 26   Paragraph 45 – The Defendants have so far been unable to produce any judgements at any level which disagree with the three judgements…  …court, but I would respectfully request…   Just the few amendments above – and I think it's fine. I think you should stick to the format that you are using. This has been used lots of times and has even been applauded by judges for being meticulous and clear. You aren't a professional. Nobody is expecting professional standards and although it's important that you understand exactly what you are doing – you don't really want to come over to the judge that you have done this kind of thing before. As a litigant in person you get a certain licence/leeway from judges and that is helpful to you – especially if you are facing a professional advocate. The way this is laid out is far clearer than the mess that you will get from EVRi. Quite frankly they undermine their own credibility by trying to say that they should win simply because it is "standard industry practice". It wouldn't at all surprise me if EVRi make you a last moment offer of the entire value of your claim partly to avoid judgement and also partly to avoid the embarrassment of having this kind of rubbish exposed in court. If they do happen to do that, then you should make sure that they pay everything. If they suddenly make you an out-of-court offer and this means that they are worried that they are going to lose and so you must make sure that you get every penny – interest, costs – everything you claimed. Finally, if they do make you an out-of-court offer they will try to sign you up to a confidentiality agreement. The answer to that is absolutely – No. It's not part of the claim and if they want to settle then they settle the claim as it stands and don't try add anything on. If they want confidentiality then that will cost an extra £1000. If they don't like it then they can go do the other thing. Once you have made the amendments suggested above – it should be the final version. court,. I don't think we are going to make any more changes. Your next job good to make sure that you are completely familiar with it all. That you understand the arguments. Have you made a court familiarisation visit?
  • Recommended Topics

  • Our picks

    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
      • 1 reply
    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
      • 81 replies
    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
      • 160 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
        • Like
  • Recommended Topics

Small Claims Court Action against builder


abedegno
style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 2254 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Recommended Posts

Hi,

 

Looks like the bailiffs are unable to attend the warehouse unit where the debtor stores his plant and machinery, a separate court order would be needed and they would discuss next steps after a second attendance at his home/registered address.

 

I have also learned that 5 days ago the debtor has created a new Ltd company, but not yet tried to wind the existing one up - I fear I am a not going to succeed here.

 

My only option might be to bring court proceeding again, but against the individual. The quote, invoices and bank account details do not show a company name or registration number. I know this means paying court fees again, but the debtor has assets (including two houses). Is this possible?

 

Thanks

 

Abe

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Replies 58
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

If you bring proceedings against the individual: expect him to refer the court to the previous judgment against the company.

He'll note that the company is a separate legal personality, and you'll have to "pierce the corporate veil"

 

If you argued to the court that the company was liable, how now are you going to say "oops, my mistake, it wasn't the company, it was him".

 

Who was any contract with? Whose account was the payment to?

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Hi,

 

Just as an update, I'm still exploring addition means of enforcement without having the issue a new moneyclaim:

- I've issued a third party debt order against a corporate customer - property developer regarding some work recently completed by the builder which he kindly advertised on his facebook page. As this would likely be paid on 30/60 day net it's likely I am in time to enforce this.

- Having established the warehouse unit where the builder keeps the plant that he hires as part of his business the HCEO officers have agreed to attempt enforcement here as a trading premises.

 

Thanks

 

Abe

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Hi,

 

An update:

- I applied for the third party debt order form to the court - looks like they 'had a lack of judges due to the holidays' so it took them nearly 4 weeks to do, not particularly impressed with the court and as a result it was too late to 'intercept' payment before it was made to.

- The builder had gotten wind that HCEO were going to attend his warehouse unit and has moved everything linking him with the location.

 

So I'm unsure what I can do at this stage:

- Do I give up, I don't think I have any enforcement options left open to me?

- Do I attempt a money claim order against the owner personally, citing the invoice/quote/bank account details being in a personal name rather than business?

 

Thanks

 

Abe

Link to post
Share on other sites

You should have sued him as a sole trader.

I'm surprised he didn't defend by saying that there was no contract between you and his business.

Looks like you'll have to start again, unless you can find the company assets and they let the hceo take them (unlikely).

Link to post
Share on other sites

I wish I had sued him as a sole trader - the Ltd company had a plant hire business assets, so a lesson learned.

 

He didn't defend, he's set up a new Ltd company and presumably transferred assets so by not defending seems to have been the right course of action for him whilst I wasted money.

 

I don't mind starting again, question is whether I legally can do - he may point to the CCJ against his now defunct Ltd company has defended?

Link to post
Share on other sites

It sounds to me like issuing a new claim against the individual might be the best way to go - if you can back it up.

 

It sounds like there is a judgment to be made as to whether a claim should be made against an individual or a company. It isn't a black-or-white issue.

 

You need to weigh up the information you have which indicates that the contract was with the company; vs the information you have which indicates a contract was with the individual. A judge would have to weigh up both sides to determine who a reasonable person would conclude your contract was with.

 

You say that there was no company name on your invoices and that money was paid to an account in the personal name of this individual. That helps make an argument that you were contracting with the individual rather than with his company. The fact that you started a CCJ against the company first would help the builder make an argument the other way.

 

Are there any significant facts that might move the needle? After all, you sued the company to start with, you must have got the company's details from somewhere? Do you have any formal paperwork with the company's name on it?

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Unless there was anything at the time you entered into an agreement with this builder to say that he was contracting through a company, then I'd think you have a decent case for suing him personally. If he wants to contract through a company he has to tell you at the outset, he can't change the contracting party after the contract has been entered into.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

Just a follow up to this - the Third Party Debt Order didn't get challenged by the property developer and the interim order was made final by the DJ.

 

The property developed was given 14 days to pay myself - that deadline expired yesterday (20th July) so they appear to be ignoring court correspondence.

 

Do I now have any recourse against the third party - would I need to ask the court to begin contempt proceeding or some other action?

 

Thanks

 

Abe

Link to post
Share on other sites

To be clear - you have a third party debt order, ordering the property developer to pay you?

 

If that is the case, and I could be wrong, then I would have thought you should be able to enforce the order in the same way as any other court judgment. Perhaps speak to a HCEO firm to see if it is something they can enforce?

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi - that's correct a final third party debt order instructing the property developer who had hired my builder (and would have owed money to them).

 

That's what I'm not sure about, whether the I can now enforce against the Third Party as a TPDO is a means of enforcement itself. I suspect not as I have no cause of action against them, the court does.

I think my only recourse is to ask the court to initiate contempt proceeding - but I'm unsure how I do that.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The TPDO is enforceable in its own right. It is a court order requiring the third party to pay you (rather than the defendant). You don't need a separate cause of action.

 

I would try to find out if bailiffs are able to enforce the TPDO directly.

 

Contempt proceedings are long, complicated and fall outside the small claims track costs regime. In short contempt proceedings are not a good idea.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I already have HCEO engaged to try to recover assets from the judgement debtor. They were a bit slow and he was able to hide/move them, but that's another story...

I will ask the HCEO and see what they say.

 

Thanks

 

Abe

Link to post
Share on other sites

In this case the HCEO would be enforcing the TPDO against the third party which was ordered to pay you by the TPDO. Not against the judgment debtor directly.

 

Hopefully the third party is less likely to hide/move their assets.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

So I contacted the HCEO, they advised that they can only enforce against the entity named on the Writ of Control and as such, would be unable to take enforcement action against the third party named on the Third party debt order.

 

To enforce against the third party it means going back to court, more expense, and I would need to prove that the property developer acted unreasonably by receiving and defying the order.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Can you get a new warrant of control against the third party, based on the TPDO? If so, that is the easiest route.

 

I also wonder if it is worth writing to the third party with a copy of the order, explaining what it is and asking for their cooperation (as otherwise they might find themselves in court too).

 

You might also think about whether you need to apply to convert the interim TPDO into a final TPDO.

 

It may even be worth using a solicitor just for the enforcement of your judgment. Some should offer a reasonable fixed fee for handling enforcement of the TPDO against the relevant individual.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

I cannot get a warrant of control on the basis of a TPDO - I have to first get a judgement order, which means going back to court.

 

I will try writing a letter to the Third Party and see how I get on.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...

Hi,

 

I've not quite given up here....

The builder has created a new Ltd company (similar to the old one I have a CCJ against) and is continuing the use the original trading name.

The old Ltd company now has overdue accounts and has received the first notice to strike off from Companies House for non-filing.

 

From what I understand, I may be able to make use of section 216 and section 2017 of the Insolvency Act which specifically prohibits what he is doing (using a name similar to the old Ltd company and trading style) which is a criminal offence, and would make the him (the director) personal liable.

 

Am I correct in my understanding, does anyone understand this area?

 

Thanks

 

Abe

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...